Associated Supermarket on Nostrand Avenue (at Sullivan Place) - Brooklynian

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Associated Supermarket on Nostrand Avenue (at Sullivan Place)

Diana Richardson dropped some news at the CB9 meeting tonight. The Associated Supermarket on Nostrand Avenue lost its lease. It's apparently located in a spot that is zoned R7-1. 

So, @whynot_31, let the speculation commence. (Now maybe someone can convince TPTB to construct a stand-alone Trader Joe's?)

Comments

  • If it is zoned R7-1, it is a good candidate for being torn down.    975 Nostrand.    New building can be as big as The Plex across the street.


    Screen shot 2014-09-23 at 10.35.44 PM
  • The Plex isn't that big (or at least as big as the worst case scenario as MTOPP is making).
  • It is the approximate scale of what will happen in several places.      Where the church was on Rogers, for example.
  • Oh no. I remember walking to that supermarket when I was a kid, back in the '80s when it was an A&P. We used to cut through what I thought was an alley; back then I didn't realize Clove Road was a real street or that it had a name. And we would stop at the ices shop on Empire, which was either where the rental car place is at 391 Empire or the building just before it coming from New York Ave.
  • edited September 2014
    @nothinlikeabklyngirl, I also remember when that supermarket was an A&P. We would sometimes go there to shop as it was down the street. This was also long before Western Beef was on Empire Boulevard.
  • edited September 2014
    That is a pretty big lot.  It seems to be R7-1 with a C2-3 overlay; the same as The Plex.  (Not sure what the overlay means; @whynot_31, can you explain?)

    The lot is bigger than The Plex.  So depending on the footprint/lot coverage and setbacks of a new building, I think they may be able to build higher than The Plex as I don't believe R7-1 has any particular height limits.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm picturing an upscale strip of retail stores on that block (Trader Joe's get's my vote!).  The Plex has, what appears to be, some nice retail space, and I presume any new building across the street will require retail as well.  I also presume the stores between Associated and Montgomery won't remain as they are for too long (also zoned R7-1 with a C2-3 overlay).

  • The lot is bigger than The Plex.  So depending on the footprint/lot coverage and setbacks of a new building, I think they may be able to build higher than The Plex as I don't believe R7-1 has any particular height limits.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Possibly something as tall as Ebbets Field or Tivoli Towers or Patio Gardens? Interesting.
  • edited September 2014
    No, not as tall as them.

    Here's the scoop:
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/zone/zoning_handbook/r7-1_r7-2.pdf

    If they want to build high, they have to figure in sky exposure planes.

    If they build lower (ie the "quality housing option"), the developers get to have a bigger building in terms of FAR.

    As a builder you get to weigh whether you will make more money from a building with lots of sq ft, vs one that has some views from upper floors.

    ....you get to scratch your chin and think about who your likely customer base will be for each, and how much $ they will have.

    Under the current adminstration, they might get a variance to build high (like the buildings you mention) but this would only happen if they included affordable housing. Then, the developer gets to decide at what point the level of affordability impacts the overall profitability of the building.

    Some solve this via "poor doors", but that is a bigger conversation. Let's leave our poor Associated out of that for now.
  • edited September 2014
     
    That is a pretty big lot.  It seems to be R7-1 with a C2-3 overlay; the same as The Plex.  (Not sure what the overlay means; @whynot_31, can you explain?)


    It seems that overlay in this instance simply allows for a "mixed building" so we may still have retail there.  

    Who do I have to call to get a Trader Joe's?  There will be access from Clove Road which will allow them to easily unload their trailers in the back (something someone mentioned when we discussed the former Capital One bank building on Washington).

    All this on just a rumor... that Associated's lease is up... and I'm already planning a development with particular retail tenants. How desperate am I for "change" and a Trader Joe's?! Noted...
  • edited September 2014
    No, not as tall as them.
    I just noticed that 626 Flatbush is zoned R7-1 as well, and that is going to be pretty big.
  • edited September 2014
    Yes, they were able to do that as a result of having a really big lot and building back from the street.

    aerial photo of lot and guy in suit: http://therealdeal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kramer-pic-final.jpg

    source: http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/07/hudson-cos-plans-254-unit-tower-near-prospect-park/

    This tactic affected the "sky exposure plane" math that they needed to abide by.

    I think we'd need an architect to determine just how high of a building Associated can build using such techniques. I'm no expert.
  • Architect here. Stand by... give me a couple of days...
  • I'm surprised that there would be access from Clove Rd. It's quite a narrow street and residential on one side. I worked at an auto parts place that bordered Clove Rd. back in the 70s and that street is really not wide enough to support a trailer .Matter of fact, when we had to unload a trailer we had to set up about 50 feet of rollers because the trailer couldn't back into our yard. When I worked in the area, the lot behind the A&P was fenced off and there was only a small spot to walk through.
  • @pragmaticguy - I've seen school buses head down Clove Rd. making a pick up on the corner of Malbone St.  Also, the Associated parking lot from Clove Rd., and I've seen that (rear) part of the lot used as a nighttime parking lot for commercial vehicles (straight trucks).  Lastly, I've also seen tractor-trailers driving out of the Associated lot onto Nostrand and presume they didn't make a U turn in the lot.
  • edited September 2014
    Lot size:
    1309 6

    With The Plex for comparison purposes:
    1309 6 (2)

    Source: NYC's Digital Tax Map
  • @Southeast....All I stated was that the was no opening from Clove Rd to the back of the Associated lot when I worked in the area some 40 years ago. I haven't been down that street since that time. There may very well be access now.
  • They couldn't eliminate Clove Road with out getting lots of permissions.

    It isn't like the old days: http://brooklynhistory.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/B-B-1946.fl-776x1023.jpg

  • @pragmaticguy - Understood.  I recall some work being done on that road 5/10 years ago.  That may have been when things changed.

    I am just trying to convince Trader Joe's to start looking in to that as a location, just in case someone out there with influence is listening...  I am getting tired of rushing to Rego Park after work to make it there before 10pm.
  • Side note - It just jumped out at me that the Empire, New York, Clove, and Malbone square seems underutilized and ripe for development. That whole area appears to be zoned R6 with C2-3 overlay.
  • Side note - It just jumped out at me that the Empire, New York, Clove, and Malbone square seems underutilized and ripe for development. That whole area appears to be zoned R6 with C2-3 overlay.
    At this rate, the neighborhood's not going to have any gas stations left! LOL
  • @mugofmead111 - I doubt that there will be many who would miss that particular gas station.
  • edited September 2014
    Lots of areas are able to developed to a much greater degree than they are now.

    Whether they will be developed (and when) depends on whether developers believe the area is better than other areas in the eyes of buyers.

    Developers only have so much "attention" (capital, labor, etc), and I see the area surrounding the Parkside Q as getting it before the square you describe. There, I envision multistory buildings being torn down to make for mid to high rises.

    "Here", I envision supermarkets with large parking lots (and -as we saw on Rogers- churches with lots of grass), becoming midrises.
  • edited September 2014
    @mugofmead111 - I doubt that there will be many who would miss that particular gas station.
    For those with cars, where else are you going to get gas? The stations at Empire and Bedford are gone. The one at Bedford and Eastern Parkway are gone. The one at Lefferts Ave and Flatbush is on the market. I dunno what's going on with the one at Rogers and Empire.

    it's relevant for the occasional times I borrow a Zipcar and have to refuel before returning the car. :) 

    At least that square is across from the local precinct. 
  • @whynot_31 - I understand that there are many places that are underdeveloped.  The reason why I mentioned that square is because it is 'significantly' underutilized; pretty much as close to a vacant lot one can get without actually having a vacant lot.
  • @mugofmead111 - I always found that gas station kinda spooky/shady/sketchy with odd hours.  I only use it as a last resort; basically, almost never.

    There are a few gas stations on Utica south of Empire and on Atlantic which don't appear to be going anywhere in the near future.
  • @whynot_31 - I understand that there are many places that are underdeveloped.  The reason why I mentioned that square is because it is 'significantly' underutilized; pretty much as close to a vacant lot one can get without actually having a vacant lot.
    The prices on those lots likely reflect their potential.

  • edited September 2014
    @mugofmead111 - I always found that gas station kinda spooky/shady/sketchy with odd hours.  I only use it as a last resort; basically, almost never.

    There are a few gas stations on Utica south of Empire and on Atlantic which don't appear to be going anywhere in the near future.
    I'd be looking for something closer to the western side of CH/PLG as that is where the Zipcars (and I) are situated. (Sometimes I use the Zipcars that are parked in the Plex.) 

  • When I rent a car, it is usually for trips out of the city.

    The trick is to not rent a car with a full tank, that way I can fill it outside of the city with exactly the amount of gas required to return it at the same level.

    Returning to the supermarket, I wonder how much business the nearby supermarkets were able to capture when this closed.

    Is this area getting frequent Fresh Direct deliveries yet?
  • @Whynot,

    Are there places in/around Crown Heights besides ZipCar that you recommend for renting cars?
  • @grwd - Carpingo has some locations in the neighborhood.

    @whynot_31, the last time I rented a Zipcar was to drive out to Hunterdon County, NJ to go to Rutger's  Snyder Farm Open House and Great Tomato Tasting. I had to endure a roundabout detour on the way back to the Holland Tunnel due to the closure of the Pulaski Skyway. The last thing I wanted to go was to get off of the detour and get gas. LOL
  • The Whynot household puts a high value on being able to return the car on Sunday night, as opposed to having to wait until the rental place opens on Monday morning.

    As a result, we often rent from All Car. They are located in the bowels of the Brooklyn Marriot, and rent non pristine cars which can then be returned in non prestine condition.

    The family dog tends to shed.
  • Funny, all the gas stations that were around Empire and EP I used to deliver to when I worked for that auto parts place. Could have bought into the Amoco that was on Rogers and Empire for $5000 back then.
  • @whynot_31,

    I just called the Downtown Brooklyn All Car - they say they're closed for drop offs on Sunday. Perhaps you have some special magic?
  • The Whynot household puts a high value on being able to return the car on Sunday night, as opposed to having to wait until the rental place opens on Monday morning.

    As a result, we often rent from All Car. They are located in the bowels of the Brooklyn Marriot, and rent non pristine cars which can then be returned in non prestine condition.

    The family dog tends to shed.
    Oh, yes. Zipcar does fine you if any traces of a pet is found in the vehicle. (It's happened once, even though the cat was in a carrier.) So one would have to find a gas station that also has a vacuum cleaner.
  • edited September 2014
    @whynot_31,

    I just called the Downtown Brooklyn All Car - they say they're closed for drop offs on Sunday. Perhaps you have some special magic?
    Their office is closed on Sunday nights, but the Marriot garage is open. One parks the car in the designated spots, they check in the car on Monday.
  • edited September 2014
    Mug-
    In addition to fur, our adventures involve mileage that make zip car not the way to go.

    A disadvantage to All Car is that you must stay within NY, NJ or CT.

    So, longer trips involve Enterprise.
    ...and sometimes a car vacuum, or fur barrier bed sheet.
  • @mugofmead111 -
    For those with cars, where else are you going to get gas? The stations at Empire and Bedford are gone. The one at Bedford and Eastern Parkway are gone. The one at Lefferts Ave and Flatbush is on the market. I dunno what's going on with the one at Rogers and Empire.
    I don't think the gas station on Rogers and Empire will be going anywhere anytime soon. They are increasing the holding tanks at that location from four 4,000 gallon tanks, to two 12,000 gallon tanks. 

    Source:DOB
  • @Mugofmead111

    Do you know when their current lease expires? It is presently still open.

    I enjoyed seeing the signs referencing C-town, A&P and Associated when I visited the lot today to try to imagine what the future holds.

    I had not realized that many of the residents of Clove Rd were Orthodox.
  • edited October 2014
    Boo. Hiss.

    Supermarkets with big parking lots are awesome. 

    I hope that it stays a supermarket. 
  • edited October 2014
    @Mugofmead111

    Do you know when their current lease expires? It is presently still open.

    I enjoyed seeing the signs referencing C-town, A&P and Associated when I visited the lot today to try to imagine what the future holds.

    I had not realized that many of the residents of Clove Rd were Orthodox.
    @whynot_31 - I don't have any more specific information. I was just reporting what Diana Richardson had said at the last CB9 meeting. (I believe she was trying to put into context what rescinding the resolution may do, especially if CB9 were to start from scratch. Development will march on regardless. While she was talking that was when she had mentioned that Associated had lost its lease, and how the lot was zoned.) This didn't happen at the portion of the meeting that would have allowed for questions from the audience (like that would have been easy with MTOPP there).

    @clayfilms - Last night I had an idea for what else may work in that spot: Target!

    Wouldn't it be great to have a Target close by? Targets are open later now (hours were recently expanded to midnight Mondays - Saturdays), so it could boost foot traffic. It'd be located about midway between the one at Atlantic Center and the one at the Junction. It'd "create jobs". If the parking lot were to remain, people can drive there. One can also do some (limited) grocery shopping there (unless it were to become a Super Target).
  • Not enough traffic for a Target there. Both of the ones you mention are at transit hubs.
  • edited October 2014
    @whynot_31 - Like a potential Trader Joe's, if you build it, they will come. :) 

    Whatever the realtor for 1757 Bedford Avenue is saying about that location can be said about this site (adjusting the distances from the 2/5 trains and the B/Q/Franklin Avenue Shuttle). 
  • And size.  This lot is massive.
  • @clayfilms - Last night I had an idea for what else may work in that spot: Target!
    Wouldn't it be great to have a Target close by? Targets are open later now (hours were recently expanded to midnight Mondays - Saturdays), so it could boost foot traffic. It'd be located about midway between the one at Atlantic Center and the one at the Junction. It'd "create jobs". If the parking lot were to remain, people can drive there. One can also do some (limited) grocery shopping there (unless it were to become a Super Target).
     a target would be okay..but only if it sold groceries..and personally..id rather it just stay a grocery store..we really don't have any large ones in crown heights with large aisles and parking lots (which are great for large families) like this one. 
  • Parking lots do not pay for themselves. I suspect the developers of Gateway I and II are well aware that parking lots attached to stores are rapidly disappearing east of Utica.

    Those with cars in CH that like to use them to shop may need to start driving east....

  • edited October 2014
    You may have a point, @whynot_31. The Target at Atlantic Center doesn't have a dedicated lot in that building. A Target down the street wouldn't need parking. Those with cars may as well drive east, especially with the way gas stations are disappearing... ;)

    For that matter, the Trader Joe's on Court Street also does not have a parking lot either. 

    Anyway, I thought the beauty of this neighborhood was that it's walkable. 
  • That is part of its beauty, and part which seems to be increasing with every passing month.

    We exist in a place where Fresh Direct is simultaneously doing an increasing business WHILE the bodegas become organic grocers.

    Where will I buy my Kraft Mac and Cheese?
  • Target has Kraft mac and cheese...as well as Amy's. :) 

    I remember when Fresh Grocer wouldn't even deliver to Crown Heights; it wasn't that long ago. 
  • I love Target but there are already three in Brooklyn, all of which are easily accessed from Crown Heights -- two of which are just a few stops along the same train line in either direction. And all are at major shopping centers or transportation hubs. We don't need another one, but even if we did this location doesn't make sense for it. If anything, the size seems more appropriate for a Walmart "Neighborhood Market," their smaller grocery/drug stores -- not that I expect that to happen given Walmart's history of trying to open a store in NYC or the fact that this location isn't very high profile.  

    But I will second the appeal of a market with large aisles and a parking lot (and preferably good deals and a good selection). It's why I'll often drive to Waldbaums in Georgetown or Aldi at Gateway to do my shopping. But I fear that Whynot's right and the building will be torn down, so even if we get another market on the ground floor of a new build, I doubt it'll have a parking lot.
  • Clove Road, the road behind Associated...

    DNA: Carved 'Story Stone' to Reveal Rich History of Abandoned Crown Heights Road -  http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20141110/crown-heights/carved-story-stone-reveal-rich-history-of-abandoned-crown-heights-road
  • edited December 2014
    As per Ms Newsome (a CB9 member) the lot occupied by Associated has, indeed, recently changed hands.

    The fear was that the new owner would not honor Associated's existing lease, which had 2 years left on it.

    However, the new owner has reportedly signed a lease that will let Associated stay for up to 5 years, and then he plans to build a building similar to The Plex.

    There may be an early exit clause in this lease, and a sales price was not disclosed by Ms Newsome.

  • edited December 2014
    I am not sure that was a good move on the buyer's part.  He may lose out if they decide to downzone the R7s to R6 or limit height.  Five years is a long time to wait.  I guess time will tell.
  • edited December 2014
    At present, property values in the area are increasing at around 15% a year.

    When CB8 west was rezoned, the commercial corridors (Nostrand, Franklin) received greater FARs in exchange for height limits. The deal was good enough that no property owners objected. I expect CB9's commercial corridors to get similar treatment.

    Meanwhile, the owner receives rent.

    ....I think the owner will do just fine.
  • Doing find is good, but if he can do better, well, that's better.  He would still get the appreciation in land value if he starts building sooner.  I hear what you are saying about was was done in CB8 though.
  • I think it is safe to say that this supermarket will not upgrade its cash registers, freezers, lighting or other capital equipment.

    Also, the parking lot is not going to be repaved.

    Ever.
  • the Q at Parkside: "But did you know that inside sources tell the Q that the Associated on Nostrand above Empire, which lost its lease, is already likely to be a huge, and maybe tall, apartment building?"


    I wonder who Tim's inside sources are.  I hope it's not this thread...
  • This thread states pretty clearly what I heard:
    As per Ms Newsome (a CB9 member) the lot occupied by Associated has, indeed, recently changed hands.

    The fear was that the new owner would not honor Associated's existing lease, which had 2 years left on it.

    However, the new owner has reportedly signed a lease that will let Associated stay for up to 5 years, and then he plans to build a building similar to The Plex.

    There may be an early exit clause in this lease, and a sales price was not disclosed by Ms Newsome.

    Regardless, this supermarket closing is just a matter of "when"

  • @whynot_31 - Yes.  And I also saw your "discussion" with Tim; did the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" result in any new information on the lease?
  • I let him know that we likely had the same private parts, and hence his offer was likely not as exciting as it could be.
  • Yay the supermarket gets 5 more years!!! Woo hoo!!
  • I don't see city records in ACRIS showing this lot changed hands...   Was everyone (Diana, Newsome, Thomas) off base on this one?
  • edited October 2015
    If the lot was owned by an LLC and a different "person" bought the LLC, I do not believe it would show up on ACRIS.

    I suspect that is the type of ownership transfer that took place.

    Such a scenario could have caused the old owner of the LLC to tell the operator of the Associated it was for sale and likely to be developed (thus causing concern among locals), and then relief once the new owner stated s/he would grant them 5 additional years.

    (Also, a clever way to transfer a property while avoiding pesky transfer taxes)

  • edited October 2015
    hm17 said:

    Architect here. Stand by... give me a couple of days...

    Let the record show that @hm17 has yet to come through on their promise. It has been over a year.

  • Meanwhile, in Park Slope, a supermarket on a similarly sized lot is believed to be at risk of facing a similar fate:

     http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/11/30/park_slope_may_lose_a_grocery_store_gain_more_apartments.php#more

  • 1.5 years have now gone by since the new landlord stated they could stay 5 more years.    So, do we have only 3.5 years left?


    This site continues to be one of the sites I believe will make a large impact on western Crown Heights:  http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/47007/the-big-18-developments-the-whynot-31-wont-stop-talking-about?new=1

  • edited June 2016

    In that instance, no supermarket can afford the new rent.

    In this instance, a supermarket may be able to afford the ground floor of the residential building that rises on the lot.

    Nostrand Ave will not be as expensive Chelsea.

  • whynot_31 said:

    In that instance, no supermarket can afford the new rent.

    In this instance, a supermarket may be able to afford the ground floor of the residential building that rises on the lot.

    Nostrand Ave will not be as expensive Chelsea.

    TJ's
    WFM
    Union Market
  • edited June 2016
    We may need to wait until 2021 before we know what commercial will go on the ground floor.
  • 975 Nostrand Avenue

    3 Years left.   

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