Secession - Brooklynian

Secession

edited August 2015 in Brooklyn and Beyond
Every so often there is talk of one part or another of New York State trying to secede, and it always intrigues me.

Comments

  • edited August 2015
    And here is today's - Upstate New York:

    More than a dozen groups in support of gun rights and hydraulic fracturing are organizing a rally Sunday to build support for turning upstate New York into a separate state. - http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/08/25/upstate-new-york-secede/32359423/


  • edited August 2015
    I suspect that many of the groups listed have overlapping membership lists. For efficiency, we may want to discuss this in terms of the organization I believe to be the largest and most viable, Oath Keepers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_Keepers

    Regardless, I think we should start making bingo cards for the big rally.

    Mine says:
    Tyranny
    NY Safe Act
    Mineral rights
    Freedom
    Founding Fathers
    Constitution
    etc

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NY_SAFE_Act
  • Having grown up upstate (Rochester), I believe secession would be disastrous for the economy of the new state (the upstate economy is already very shaky, in spite of the $$ they receive from taxes paid by NYC businesses and residents). 

    It would be complicated even further when Albany, Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo secede from the new state, as those cities trend far more liberal than the gun-loving, fracking-favoring yahoos who want to secede from NYC.
  • Considering the struggles of so many upstate cities (Birmingham, Rochester, Buffalo, Watertown) and the abject poverty of many of the rural areas, this would be terrible. 

    Reminds me of the secession push in Western Maryland to become their own state.  They have a different idea of morality and different priorities but are very optimistic about how they would fare on their own, considering a lack of industry..
  • I've always maintained that NYC should leave NYS. IT makes no sense for us to send all our tax money, and make no mistake it's what keeps NYS afloat, to only be rewarded with crumbling infrastructure and meddling in local affairs e.g. bus cameras and lack of MTA funds. I'm hearing more and more talk about this idea over the last couple years so people are finally realzing it's time for us to go.

    That being said if the gun nuts want to leave us I say let them! As others had said this would put them in a tough spot economically but we all know they've been looting out tax money for too long now.  
  • I'm all for seceding. Let New York City become something like an international city, or a principality. The thought of all those tax dollars being pumped into the metropolitan NYC school system makes me feel faint. 
  • edited August 2015
    Any downside for the lower parts of the state?  Is there a chance that our area becomes more "socialist" as a result of not having upstate to balance us out?  I know many of you may not agree with me, but the latter is a particular concern of mine.
  • @southeast I really don't think you understand the concept of socialism. There are very few pure socialist states and trust me NYC is in no "danger" of adopting the much more prevalent socialism capitalism hybrid that is prevalent in most of Europe. 
    The biggest downside is that much of our water and other natural resources come from upstate but I'm sure we can arrange something. 


    @crownheighster What possible complaint against education could you possibly have? Or do you simply prefer that all NYC youth be illiterate? 
  • edited August 2015
    @newguy88 - Thanks.  Put it simply, I don't want to be taxed more.  I don't want charity imposed on me, and I don't want to facilitate able-bodied individuals being able to sit on their laurels and live off the fat of the land (i.e., others' hard work).  For the most part, it's generous social services that allows this, and NYS more so than most other states.

    But I do realize that if upstate wasn't taking disproportionately, we'd have a lot more to share among us.  As a result, no need for increased taxes.  Maybe, just maybe, we can even lower taxes.  We are already taxed one of the highest, if not the highest, in the country.
  • edited August 2015
    In my view, NYC presently has a really liberal/populist mayor and city council. To balance it out, NYC business interests "donate to" (purchase?) upstate polticians.

    However, if NYC were to succeed from NYS I do not think the current array of NYC politicians would maintain their roles.

    I have faith that the NYC business money would be redirected to NYC politicians, and/or the residents of NYC would realize that having such populists as politicians really isn't in their best interests now that these individuals have actual power.

    In otherwords, my faith allows me to believe that if the "white guys upstate" lose their power, the majority of NYC's liberal characters ('Tish James, DeBlasio, Jumaane Williams, etc) will either be fired or become beholden to REBNY.

    ....which would be sorta sad, because they seem to really enjoy their present role casting themselves as heros of the people who are thwarted by evil forces.
  • Ah... So young... And so cynical!
  • edited August 2015
    @Booklaw -
    A. Few people consider me young; I am 46.

    B. Because corporations are legally people in the US, I define the process I describe as "good government", or "American Democracy". As a result, I am optimistic that the system will adapt.
  • edited August 2015
    @newguy88 -
    "The biggest downside is that much of our water and other natural resources come from upstate but I'm sure we can arrange something."

    NYC owns much of the Catskill and Adirondack watershed, and this is part of why upstate politicians hate NYC. However, these property rights would not be affected by any secession. ....NYC would continue to own property in NYS.

    In America (like much of the world), property rights transcend mere politicial boundaries.
  • The State of Upstate New York might decide to use eminent domain to seize the reservoirs, claiming an intention to turn them into revenue-producing casinos, airports or shopping malls. They could then negotiate extortionate rates to refrain from building on the sites and to make water available to The State of NYC.
  • edited August 2015
    If eminent domain appears likely, thirsty NYC residents will form a PAC and buy the NYS politicians.

    If that is not possible, NYC could always file a suit with the World Bank: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/us-venezuela-exxon-idUSKCN0HY20720141010

    ...just because NYS will have an autonomous government, doesn't mean they will have any actual power.

    We all live on Earth.
  • @newguy88 -- What I meant was, imagine all of NYC tax dollars going to support solely NYC schools. It was be an amazing thing. I imagine a blitz of new construction for school buildings in overcrowded districts, tossing out most charter schools, and more highly paid teachers and school specialists and aides. Not to mention all the $ we could put towards getting our subway system back in order. 

    I don't give a shit about upstate (even though I have a ton of family in the decrepit cities of Schenectady and Binghampton). Especially since it is the upstate pols who keep trouncing on NYC's attempts to strengthen gun laws. 

    Haha. Basically what I imagine is NYC becoming "The Capitol" from the Hunger Games. :)
  • Having grown up upstate (Rochester), I believe secession would be disastrous for the economy of the new state (the upstate economy is already very shaky, in spite of the $$ they receive from taxes paid by NYC businesses and residents). 

    It would be complicated even further when Albany, Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo secede from the new state, as those cities trend far more liberal than the gun-loving, fracking-favoring yahoos who want to secede from NYC.



    Gee, I'm not so sure about that especially when you read forum posts on syracuse.com - lots of angry posts from right wingers there, though, as usual, the progressives usually win the debates with more skillful and intelligent posting.

    But if there is to be secession, perhaps NYC might want to do so as was proposed by Norman Mailer and others in the late 1960s.  After all, city-states like Hong Kong and Singapore have done quite well for themselves.
  • I guess it all comes down to how each group defines success.

    IE Many people would be absolutely miserable if they had to live in Hong Kong or Singapore.

    ...I really liked Singapore when I visited.
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