Educational Proficiency of Black Students Lags Behind

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Educational Proficiency of Black Students Lags Behind

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krowonhill
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
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Perhaps as a person who grew up poor but white, I have a predisposition to analyze social issues in terms of class and not race. But then, I come across something like this:

"Only 12 percent of black fourth-grade boys are proficient in reading, compared with 38 percent of white boys, and only 12 percent of black eighth-grade boys are proficient in math, compared with 44 percent of white boys.

Poverty alone does not seem to explain the differences: poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty, measured by whether they qualify for subsidized school lunches."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepage

Given that over one-third of Brooklynites are black, it's worth talking about 1) why decades of social programs designed to address such inequalities have failed? and 2) how can things change?

Very un- "sivilized".

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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age old questions there.

http://www.educationequalityproject.org/what_we_stand_for/achievement_gap

Among others, Geoffrey Canada stuggles to implement these and other findings at agencies such as the Harlem Children's Zone, as well as teachers at public and charter schools throughout the nation.

http://www.hcz.org

http://www.kipp.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Is_Power_Program

Research has shown that despite their claims, the success of these programs have been mixed.

Such schools have been shown to reach motivated parents and students, however.

....but if there was a magic bullet, we'd use it.

Bank Street has open discussions on this stuff pretty regularly

http://www.bankstreet.edu/www/

....so much proposal writing to be done.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
mr. met
rocking it
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Posts: 1,407

p-a-r-e-n-t-s

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
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Posts: 377

Yup, Mr. Met. It's primarily the parents. It is very hard to compensate for a parent's lack of knowledge, especially since they are a child's first teacher. I don't think it matters how motivated the parent is. If said parent has a limited vocabulary, doesn't read much, and doesn't expose their children to much outside of their home/community there isn't a whole lot those programs can do for those kids.

Whynot_31, thanks for posting that. Everyone has been on the charter school bandwagon like it's the answer. It's not the only answer and we really need to do a better job of informing people about what is working and what isn't.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
krowonhill
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 248

The answer "parents" works when class is considered, but it doesn't address the issue of race. Surely, middle-class black parents are able to transmit the qualities (discipline, perseverance, etc.) that landed them in America's middle-class. Yet, according to the study cited, black kids from middle-class homes also lag behind their white counterparts significantly. They're only doing as well as poor white kids.

Whynot points to programs that already in place and educational theories that support them. But I'm arguing (and the authors of the cited study are arguing) that such programs are *not working*. Educators have been setting up similar programs to try to address this issue for decades. Funds have been diverted to try to address this issue for years. It's still with us.

Very un- "sivilized".

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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Historical note: Blaming the parents, when taken to the extreme, resulted in Residential Training Schools and mass foster care placement. Perhaps needless to say, but such efforts ended very badly.

The movie Rabbit Proof Fence is a must see, if you haven't seen it already.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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On a less extreme note, the NY Campaign for Fiscal Equity won in court but seems to have about a 0% chance of being implemented in our "democracy".

http://www.cfequity.org/

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
mr. met
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The answer "parents" works when class is considered, but it doesn't address the issue of race.

“There’s accumulating evidence that there are racial differences in what kids experience before the first day of kindergarten,” said Ronald Ferguson, director of the Achievement Gap Initiative at Harvard. “They have to do with a lot of sociological and historical forces. In order to address those, we have to be able to have conversations that people are unwilling to have.”

# Posted 2 yrs ago
MHA
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I think this is an American phenomenon. If one examines the academics of Black kids in other country's the math and literacy statistics will differ. Anecdotally, I can attest to coming to the U.S. and being surprised at the intellectual vacum of the average student. And I was no genius biped either. Too many freedoms here.

In contrast, as dumb as these kids are, I bet you dollars and donuts that there motor skills are fantastic.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
krowonhill
getting it
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Posts: 248

mr. met wrote:

The answer "parents" works when class is considered, but it doesn't address the issue of race.

“There’s accumulating evidence that there are racial differences in what kids experience before the first day of kindergarten,” said Ronald Ferguson, director of the Achievement Gap Initiative at Harvard. “They have to do with a lot of sociological and historical forces. In order to address those, we have to be able to have conversations that people are unwilling to have.”

Do you think that "sociological and historical forces" lead to black parents, even middle-class ones, interacting with their kids in different ways than white parents? If so, what do you think the differences might be?

It's hard for me to understand since middle-class people generally have to adopt certain traits to be successful. It seems that they would be capable of transmitting these skills to their own kids. So, what is the hitch?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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When one black kid tells another black kid not to study because they would be "acting white" it doesn't help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
booklaw
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One possible factor is the percentage of single-parent vs. two-parent families. I've seen statistics to the effect that higher percentages of black babies are born to single moms, than of white babies.

It's got to be harder for a single parent to read to her (or his) kid, make sure the kid does his or her homework, help the kid with homework, etc.

Also, how middle-class are the respective families? Solidly, or hanging on by their fingernails? Is there extended-family support?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
MHA
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I think Whynot raises a valid point about 'acting white' but he misses the bigger picture. Picture if you will, a wider landscape other than one kid pointing a finger at another accusing him/her of acting white. Factor in a surrounding neighborhood saying the same thing. Also, factor in a historical context where there is a lack of belief that the 'American Dream' includes you. And put that perspective within the context of history.

So in the center we have one kid telling another kid he's acting white, and surrounding that we have a neighborhood that validates that accusation, and then surrounding that we have a historical context where 'acting white' is a reality, and frowned upon for reasons clear -- if you understand the historical context...

In essence, Whynot's normative judging (and wikipedia citation to validate his opinion) is NO DIFFERENT than what Krowonhill states, except that what he states is the microview, while Krowonhill states the MACROVIEW. Whynot doesn't merely sees trees, while Krowonhill sagely sees they dynamic of the Black forest, and the context in which it exists...

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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Actually, I cited a lot of things before that on this thread re "the bigger picture":

....like the ability of charter schools to help motivated parents and children

...and work of the Campaign for Fiscal Equity.

...but, yup, I believe the fear of "acting white" is also one of factors that keeps the gap firmly in place.

However, I do agree with MHA in that the belief in a social contract is key. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

Any one know where we get one of those? Any one know how we get folks to belief in it?

If there was only one factor that caused the achievement gap, we'd have made more progress toward closing it.

As this list of signatories indicates, and 10 minutes in any MA in Education program will tell us, it's not like we have a lot of professionals "for" the gap...

http://www.educationequalityproject.org/what_we_stand_for/achievement_gap

It's kinda like poverty. Unless we try to cop out and accuse each other of "blaming the victims", it is safe to say that 99% of folks are against it.

....it's just that no one knows "the solution" because there are many solutions to a complex problem.

Those education folks seem to have put a lot of thought into this....

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
mr. met
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Do you think that "sociological and historical forces" lead to black parents, even middle-class ones, interacting with their kids in different ways than white parents? If so, what do you think the differences might be?

From the article: Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”

I don't really know what the differences might be, and I'm not comfortable speculating. As Whynot seemed to be pointing out, this seems to be a cultural problem.

Also, the article does not reference middle class black or white families, just families that are not in poverty.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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This article is pretty good.   It puts forward the various theories....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achievement_gap_in_the_United_States

the reader then:

1. prints it out.

2.  circles their favorite theories

3.  crosses out the ones they don't like.

and then decides whether they want to become a teacher or throw rocks at the building while listening to Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall. http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/anotherb.htm

(damn, I've gotta get better music references ....preferably some Hot 97 Gangsta and Hip Hop, as opposed to my 104.3)

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Cool The Kid
We out this mother effer
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Ishtar wrote:

Yup, Mr. Met. It's primarily the parents. It is very hard to compensate for a parent's lack of knowledge, especially since they are a child's first teacher. I don't think it matters how motivated the parent is. If said parent has a limited vocabulary, doesn't read much, and doesn't expose their children to much outside of their home/community there isn't a whole lot those programs can do for those kids.

Plus those parents are often a product of the same shitty schools. It's a trap.

Charter schools are crap too. All schools should be held to the same standard.

It's not easy, but if the education system can be made better, everyone will benefit.

[
Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
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From the article: Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”

I don't really know what the differences might be, and I'm not comfortable speculating. As Whynot seemed to be pointing out, this seems to be a cultural problem.

Some sociologist believe it's a hold over from slavery and Jim Crow. We have to remember that a lot of black Americans are barely two generations out of the south. Both of my parents grew up in segregated communities and spent their early years dealing with Jim Crow and segregated schools. What was taught then and still to some degree is not to question authority. You do what you are told and don't bring undue attention to yourself. It was part of "training" in dealing with hostile environment that would condemn blacks for any perceived wrong doings. A key part of learning is questioning the things around you, including authority. In general, this isn't encouraged among black parents.

Some people think that was a long time ago, but it wasn't. I think it will take a VERY long time to undo these things.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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I completely agree, Ishtar.

....although some may argue it was written a long time ago (1944), and uses language that is no longer in fashion ("negro" for example), the conclusions and analysis of this influential book remain far too timely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_American_Dilemma

NYC's diversity may make some readers believe the author's view isn't relevant here, but if one spends any time in "modern" cities like Memphis, Detroit, Cleveland or Dayton his analysis becomes quite clear.

....hell, no need to travel that far, just visit some of NYC's ghettos.

In many ways we are still in 1944.

We have come a long way, yet have so far to go.

P.S.   At 1500 pages, this book is not for the faint of heart.   Lots of summaries are available of this book, and you may want to read those to save time ....and prevent depression.   This book is the staple of PhD disertations in Sociology.

....but getting back to that achievement gap.   It looks like we may have to keep whittling away it over time, and we should remain skeptical of educators who state they have a magic formular or model that will quickly wipe it out.

....Although I really would like for Mr. Canada and all of those hard working public and charter school teachers to prove me wrong.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
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Also, a disproportionate percentage of black Americans are middle class because of "good" government jobs and union wages, neither of which require(d) very much education. All that needs to be taught is show up on time, follow directions, and get your work done (see Jim Crow training). Very little in this learning process involves learning to take the lead in the work place, seek out opportunities to learn, etc. I think this is a contributing factor to so many middle class black males performing about as well as their poor white counterparts.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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yup, and combining your point with those made by Booklaw, it will only take a downsizing of government to put those "middle class" families back down into the "working class".

Thus describing the lives of many of those black women on the subway every morning..... those that board the 3 train BEFORE Franklin Avenue.

....hundreds of books take on the subject from different angles.

Despite the (hollow?) victories of orgs like the Campaign for Fiscal Equity, I believe most of the "change" will come one child at a time.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
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I absolutely agree, whynot_31.

Related, but not really...

The downsizing of government will come pretty soon, if the recommendations of the Deficit Commission are enacted.

http://www.epi.org/analysis_and_opinion/entry/deficit_commission_leaders_are_not_addressing_the_root_causes_of_the_l/

They want to decrease the federal workforce by 200,000 by 2020. The federal government is the largest single employer of blacks. This could be a major setback for black families still trying to climb the socioeconomic ladder. These types of jobs have helped a lot of blacks put their children through college, which many people see as a way of preventing poverty (of course many of us know that college isn't the answer for everyone, but being competent is).

# Posted 2 yrs ago
homeowner
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How much of it has to do with the attitudes of teachers in the classroom? I read this piece a couple of weeks ago, and it is shocking.

http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html

We can talk about the parents, but when a teacher says that his experience is that black boys are not interested in learning, that they have no grasp of the english language, they are only interested in having sex with white girls, and when black girls are described as being loud, fat, ugly and fast, what kind of expericence will black students in his class have?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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Hence the public's embrace of charter schools....

The public hopes Charter Schools will be free from the burnt out teachers (such as the one you describe), the unmotivated students (such as the ones the teacher describes) and the unsupportive and perhaps unequipped parents (as we've described). [time will tell whether they are correct]

--Of course, most public schools (teachers, students and parents) don't meet this dire description, but you have to exaggerate problems when you are proposing public policy solutions as different as Charter schools. You have to convince the public that the present traditional "public school" system is completely broken. ....um, it isn't.--

BTW, once charter schools cream the motivated teachers, parents and students from the worst districts, I'm of the belief that things are likely going to get even worse for those kids, teachers and parents left behind. The zoned schools may turn into mere police supervised, School Lunch and School Breakfast centers ....no education may be possible.

[but, damn, I would like those motivated folks to have a choice and a chance to escape some of those really bad schools! ....and that is the true promise of Charter schools]

Homeowner, that burnt out teacher should find a new line of work. Surely some of the kids in his school can be reached by a non burnt out teacher and administration ....surely the teacher could drive a cab or something.

(I fear lack of intonation will soon crash this thread)

and Pink Floyd won't leave my head: All in all, your just another brick in the wall....

Ah, Alienation and Anomie are always close at hand ...social change less so.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
homeowner
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What this comes down to is the original point you raised, that there is no one problem and no one solution. Charter schools do afford some promise, but they are not the magic bullet that some people think they are.

Frankly, my solution to fixing the achievement gap...take the top 10% of students from every college and offer to 1)pay for them to get an advance degree in their subject matter area 2) pay them a starting salary of $70,000 and 3) forgive 100% of their student loan debt in exchange for them spending 5 years teaching in schools. Have schools provide additional services from medical and health care to mental health services. Provide similar incentives to doctors, nurses, and social workers who are school-based. Make the concept of highly qualified teachers based primarily on classroom control and student achievement.

You get the best students and turn them into teachers and you may see an improvement in schools.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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absolutely.

....and many argue that the public schools could achieve success if they weren't so, how do I put it: "public".

Although they put their arguements more eloquently then I'm about too, public school teachers and principals argue that their success is hindered in that they have no ability to discipline or exclude students who are destroying the learning environment.

...detention isn't allowed

....suspensions are rare

....explusion only is granted for felonies.

....even in the "worst" schools, they argue that most of the problems were caused by a small percentage of the children.

In response, they:

a.   Sometimes simply the test results better :) http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2009/05/08/2009-05-08_city_test_numbers_too_good_to_be_true_hide_achievement_gap_of_poor_students_some.html

b. created the various special education programs and District 75:     The dumping grounds for black and hispanic kids (usually male) labelled learning disabled and emotionally disturbed.

You, know, the ones who are beleived to be "slowing the class down", and/or "beating the crap out" of the other kids.

But now that the feds and state have become justly wise of our over use of such porgrams (and their associated expenses), the teachers have even fewer resources.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/education/29schools.html

No one likes to give up on a kid, but should schools have a greater ability to get rid of a "the worst" so that "the rest" can have a chance to learn?

As long as it isn't your kid, do we all agree it is time to isolate a few to save the masses?

P.S.   These people do excellent work on behalf of kids in Special Ed: http://www.advocatesforchildren.org/

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
booklaw
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Back in 1970, when I was in law school, I applied for and won a position as an English/literature teacher in an Upward Bound summer program for high school students at what was then called the College of the Virgin Islands.

This was at the height of the Black Power movement, and the student body was 99% black. Some of the teachers were from the Islands, most from the mainland US. Most of the teachers (math and English/literature) had no prior teaching training or experience. Most of the teachers were white, but by no means all.

We were all highly motivated. Our only compensation was a summer in the Caribbean,very modest weekly paychecks, and the opportunity to "do good".

Our situation was considerably different from that discussed in this thread, in that our students had been preselected for aptitude. They were all kids who, with proper encouragement and motivation (and perhaps a little remedial work), were expected to be able to do well at stateside colleges.

The problem with most of our students was that their interest in education had been crushed by their teachers... in both the public schools and the Catholic schools in both St. Thomas and St. Croix the teachers tended to be highly authoritarian retirees from stateside school systems... burnt out and not caring.

By the end of the summer, using unorthodox teaching methods (most of us had no idea what we were doing... so we experimented), we had instilled in many of the students a renewed excitement about learning. To get there, we had first broken through anti-semitism and distrust of the "white devil", in large part because we were living on campus with and partying and doing sports with our students, as well as teaching them in classroom and tutorial sessions.

It was the best summer and the best job I've ever had... and it worked for the students.

I don't know whether our enthusiasm and excitement could be matched by teachers hired to teach year-round in Brownsville or Roxbury, or whether our rapport and our resulting success could be matched by teachers who spend only one or two hours a day with each student.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
xlizellx
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yes. In true-life-of-a-third-grade-teacher::

Last week were Parent-Teacher Conferences.

I have 27 kids. 18 kids had someone show up. I had the most of all of the 3rd grade classes. Of those 18 people, 3 were cousins who were barely 18, 2 were STONED dads, 1 was a grandma who doesn't live with the kid, and 1 was an older brother.

That means that of 27 kids, only 11 had sober parents attend conferences. At PTC they get the kids' report cards, find out how they're doing, and learn about the NYS tests. I get that parents work, are busy, etc. But it's tough to convince a kid that what you're teaching is important if their parents can't take the time to sign a test paper or who up to conferences. They see that their parents don't care so why should they care?

That said...my biggest issue teaching? Not that most of the kids don't want to learn. Not that I don't have books/materials. Not that I don't have standards/curriculum. Not that I am required to do 4 hours of paperwork every day on top of teaching and lesson planning. Not that I am treated like a moron by the powers-that-be in the system certainly making my self-worth as a teacher fall.... But that I can't remove kids who need to be taken out of my general-education classroom.

There are kids in most classrooms in the city that are making it very very difficult for the other kids to learn.

This is either because they are in need of special education services and parents won't allow it (stigma, etc.) OR our school can't offer what they need (we don't exactly have $$ to hire extra 1-on-1 paras or special ed. teachers).

Or because they are a behavior issue (unlike charter schools, we can't give out-of-school suspensions, detentions, or kick kids out). Imagine trying to teach while the one kid runs around, tearing up the room, screaming, hitting, etc. and when you call home or you tell them they'll miss out on things their response is "I don't care. Call home. No one is there anyway. Who cares? You can't touch me." We really can't do much and if parents don't do anything they are somehow still our problem.

It is down-right unfair to the other kids in the room.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
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Needless to say, this isn't a problem that affects NYC alone.

Yet other districts (even poor, urban ones) have found a way to actually give the teachers and principals some authority.

Presently, NYC teachers are forced to create a contract

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=student+discipline+contract+NY&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

but one with no consequences.

What a disaster! Creating a contract without consequences sends completely the wrong message to a kid developing a sense of self. They see it and the adults who create it as silly and toothless.

....no one is helped.

Aren't we are a smart enough society that we can think of ways of instilling discipline and control? (no, I'm not talking about corporal punishment).

If we can't, we'll just end up with places who are empowered to discipline the kids (charter schools) and those that are left to flounder

....as charter schools become more prevalent will the traditional NYC public schools take the place of what was once the domain of District 75?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
mr. met
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Posts: 1,407

I have 27 kids. 18 kids had someone show up. I had the most of all of the 3rd grade classes. Of those 18 people, 3 were cousins who were barely 18, 2 were STONED dads, 1 was a grandma who doesn't live with the kid, and 1 was an older brother.

That means that of 27 kids, only 11 had sober parents attend conferences.

My good friend is a high school teacher in the city and has told me countless stories like this one. He busts his ass every single day, but there is only so much he can do. Sadly, by the time high school comes around, it's already too late for many kids. It's important to recognize the sociological and historical roots of these problems, and no one can deny that they exist. However, that won't turn things around. Personal life decisions and personal responsibility are the biggest factors that can bring about change. That's just my opinion. Easier said than done, of course.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
xlizellx
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whynot_31 wrote:

If we can't, we'll just end up with places who are empowered to discipline the kids (charter schools) and those that are left to flounder

....as charter schools become more prevalent will the traditional NYC public schools take the place of what was once the domain of District 75?

YES. I feel like I am saying this exact thing every time someone brings up Charter Schools with me. It is frustrating and discouraging to see all your hard work going towards that ending.

(I feel like once I tell people I'm a teacher, I get 1 of 3 responses)

1 - Oh, are you a teaching fellow? ....NO. I am an actual teacher with training, career goals, and experience, and a masters degree thankyouverymuch.

2 - Awww, how sweet and wonderful and selfless of you. ....NO. I am a professional with a professional job. While I appreciate your "support" of my adorable job, you would never say things to a doctor -- say things like "aw, a doctor? How noble helping those poor people who are sick". No. They get paid and are doing a job. I may get paid a lot less, but it's still a job, not some do-gooder charity. .

3 - Oh at a Charter School? Have you see that Superman Movie? ...NO. I am teaching kids who NEED someone stable in their lives. Kids in charter schools clearly have 1 thing going for them already: Parents who give a sh*t enough to even enroll them in a lottery to get into the school. Whether the charter school itself is good or not, at least they worried about their kid's education to even a small degree and tried to be proactive about it.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
mr. met
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/16/opinion/16herbert.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=bob%20herbert&st=cse

Bob Herbert responds to the Times article referenced in the title of this thread. In line with my previous comments, I think he makes sense.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
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xlizellx wrote:

3 - Oh at a Charter School? Have you see that Superman Movie? ...NO. I am teaching kids who NEED someone stable in their lives. Kids in charter schools clearly have 1 thing going for them already: Parents who give a sh*t enough to even enroll them in a lottery to get into the school. Whether the charter school itself is good or not, at least they worried about their kid's education to even a small degree and tried to be proactive about it.

^^^This

I do not have children, but I'm extremely bothered by this movement toward charter schools and as whynot pointed out, there should be a lot of concern for the children left behind in public schools in the situation you just pointed out.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
homeowner
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Posts: 3,018

I get the concept of wanting to make sure that all children have an option for a good education, but why should parents who do care, but lack the means to send their child to private schools be forced to keep their kids in schools with kids who aren't there to learn?

In NY for years those parents were consigned to either shipping their kids all over town to get them to a "good" school or being the bearers of the disproportionate burden of dealing with the reprecussions of having a kid in a school where education was not the top priority. So why not allow them to opt into another educational setting?

We really need to re-examine what the right to a free education means. We should all be fighting for the best educational system for everyone. But if we are not, how can we say to a group of parents "if you want a better education for your kids, move to a better part of town" when we know that that is just not a viable option? Why can't parent who care be given some semblance of choice?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

In many ways, Charter schools fill the gap that the Catholic schools used to fill, before they started to disappear.

[Catholic schools were obviously religious, and parents paid tuition, so the analogy isn't perfect]

...less popular than the Waiting for Superman film was one called The Lottery:

http://thelotteryfilm.com/about

(it's worth the rental)

But back on topic:

I'm all for giving motivated parents and kids (including ones who can't afford to live in the "right" district) a safe, productive school, complete with rules, structure and learning.

But as xlizelx seems to agree, as a result of recent unfunded mandates regarding "inclusive special education", traditional public schools are, in many ways ...increasingly screwed.

While everyone wants every child to succeed, let's not kid ourselves:   We want our own kids to succeed the most.

Parent: "I don't really care why the local school can't get that damn bully (culture? teacher?) out of my kid's class.   I'll take my kid to a school that can"

....and so, the charter school movement began, and now there is no stopping it.

While I sympathize with public school teachers and the "academic dregs" they will be increasingly left with ....there may be a time that they, too, need to swallow their conscience and leave the dregs behind.

Afterall, they are professionals who are trained to teach... not security guards or mental health technicians [psst, thats what they call orderlies now...].

Parent: "It's not my fault that kid doesn't have a functional family. We can't all be middle class.   This is a competition.  I'm going to make sure my kid gets what they need to do alright."

Which brings us to "a" and "b":

a.   The kids who are left in public schools may do worse than they otherwise would have, now that the caring (voting? tax paying?) parents and well behaved kids have left the building.

b.   The kids in charter schools may do better now that they are free from the dregs.

On a societal, macro basis, will the gains from "b" exceed the losses from "a"?   ....I have no idea.

.....will the combination of charter schools and traditional public schools close the achievement gap?   Time will tell.

I just know that this experiment is not going to stop anytime soon, and if I were in charge of the UFT (god forbid...) I would focus my energies on getting the "disruptive kids" OUT of regular schools, instead of trying to force the "good kids" to stay IN regular schools.

...and would likely be called "uncaring" and "racist" everyday, despite pursuing a strategy I believe would benefit the most people regardless of race, and given limited resources.

Hence, I will sit here instead, and shake my head in resignation at how even more screwed the public schools are about to become.

....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.

P.S. If appointed schools chancellor or UFT president, I promise not to use the word "dreg".

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
above average
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 377

homeowner wrote:

I get the concept of wanting to make sure that all children have an option for a good education, but why should parents who do care, but lack the means to send their child to private schools be forced to keep their kids in schools with kids who aren't there to learn?

In NY for years those parents were consigned to either shipping their kids all over town to get them to a "good" school or being the bearers of the disproportionate burden of dealing with the reprecussions of having a kid in a school where education was not the top priority. So why not allow them to opt into another educational setting?

We really need to re-examine what the right to a free education means. We should all be fighting for the best educational system for everyone. But if we are not, how can we say to a group of parents "if you want a better education for your kids, move to a better part of town" when we know that that is just not a viable option? Why can't parent who care be given some semblance of choice?

So we continue down this path and not help children who lack advocates?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

yup. Like it or not, we are part of the machine.

....and we can only hope the gains outweigh the losses in the long run.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
above average
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 377

whynot_31 wrote:

....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.

I find it really sad and extremely unfortunate when parents opt out instead of trying to change the school. I wish more parents got as involved as those at schools like PS9. At one time it was a pretty bad school, but has steadily improved over the years.

I also find it interesting that charter school advocates aren't being honest about the situation at those schools. Majority of them do no better than public schools and a good number of them are actually worse. I personally wouldn't send my child to one unless I was 100% certain it was outperforming any other option I had.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
homeowner
mod
Joined: Jan '06
Posts: 3,018

Ishtar wrote:

whynot_31 wrote:

....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.

I find it really sad and extremely unfortunate when parents opt out instead of trying to change the school. I wish more parents got as involved as those at schools like PS9. At one time it was a pretty bad school, but has steadily improved over the years.

I also find it interesting that charter school advocates aren't being honest about the situation at those schools. Majority of them do no better than public schools and a good number of them are actually worse. I personally wouldn't send my child to one unless I was 100% certain it was outperforming any other option I had.

I think for a lot of folks this discussion changes when you have kids. You don't want to wait for steady improvement, you want your kid to learn to read this year, to have a safe environment on day one and to be in a classroom with kids that are not so seriously emotionally damaged such that they can't stop themselves from hurting others or interrupting the learning.

Parents are willing to risk it when they arrive in year 3, 4, or 5 of steady improvement. When there has been no improvement in the educational level in 15 years, or worse, there has been a steady decline, convincing parents to take a chance, especially with elementary school kids is a hard thing to do.

Xlizellx and any other teachers that want to weigh in, would you send your kids to the school where you teach?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

BTW, the 13 pages of comments that can be found on the The Lottery's message board echo our own mini-conversation on this issue.

http://thelotteryfilm.com/messageBoard

It would be difficult to say we missed much. ...a fine conversation indeed.

http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Lottery/70138616?strackid=43b127e665a7415_0_srl&strkid=1448629848_0_0&trkid=438381<br< a=""> /> </br<>

------to the OP-----

Ms. Krow-

Have we answered your questions?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
stacey
rocking it
Joined: Mar '05
Posts: 3,524

My son is now 14 and was a student at PS 9 from 2000 to 2007. There was no way my husband or I could afford private school nor did we make little enough to qualify for any type of scholarships. There has always been parent involvement at PS 9. The problem is that many of the parents did not have the ability to bring about change, i.e., worked at full-time jobs (sometimes 2); did not have the connections to bring in additional services; and/or did not have the extra money to donate to the school. The teachers at the school were fantastic and there was not one that I came across who would not go above and beyond to help those students who needed it. One of the things that I think really helped with the PS 9 community is there were workshops that they ran. Some were purely for fun like scrapbooking, and some were more like how to understand the new math.

Another thing that PS 9 did that helped them turn around was that all students were required to stay for an extra period of after school. Those students who needed tutoring got it and those who did not took enrichment classes like art or robotics.

I also think that many teachers hands are tied because they must teach children to "take tests" intead of teaching children how to study. It puts them in a Catch 22 position where the BOE wants test results up but these kids don't learn how to study on their own.

There are many parents who lack the skills necessary to help their children. Some do not understand healthy nutrition (which plays a HUGE part in helping them concentrate in school - I kid you not I heard a parent say that they let their kid each cheese doodles for breakfast because it has cheese!!). But here I agree with others, it is up the parent to keep communication open with the teacher. If the parent needs help they have to ask to get it.

I would love to see more power given to an individual teacher. Teachers get to know your child, their home and financial situation and can make a much better asssessment of their strengths and weaknesses. These teachers should be allowed to require chidlren to stay for mandatory tutoring.

I work very hard at keeping my son on the straight and narrow in school. I keep in contact with teachers and make myself available for them when needed. I truly believe that all schools are good. If your child is a good student they can thrive. In order to change the system you have to get involved and let your voice be heard. My son has been to two public schools now in District 13 (PS 9 and Park Place Community Middle School) and has thrived at these schools. He is now in a gifted program in high school and I have to say that I owe alot of that to the education he received at these public schools.

Oh and I am a product of the 70-80's Brooklyn public school system.

(Whew - this an MHA-worthy post ).

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
above average
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 377

homeowner wrote:

Ishtar wrote:

whynot_31 wrote:

....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.

I find it really sad and extremely unfortunate when parents opt out instead of trying to change the school. I wish more parents got as involved as those at schools like PS9. At one time it was a pretty bad school, but has steadily improved over the years.

I also find it interesting that charter school advocates aren't being honest about the situation at those schools. Majority of them do no better than public schools and a good number of them are actually worse. I personally wouldn't send my child to one unless I was 100% certain it was outperforming any other option I had.

I think for a lot of folks this discussion changes when you have kids. You don't want to wait for steady improvement, you want your kid to learn to read this year, to have a safe environment on day one and to be in a classroom with kids that are not so seriously emotionally damaged such that they can't stop themselves from hurting others or interrupting the learning.

Parents are willing to risk it when they arrive in year 3, 4, or 5 of steady improvement. When there has been no improvement in the educational level in 15 years, or worse, there has been a steady decline, convincing parents to take a chance, especially with elementary school kids is a hard thing to do.

Xlizellx and any other teachers that want to weigh in, would you send your kids to the school where you teach?

Unfortunately most things aren't working and most parents opting to try charter schools aren't getting anything better. Seriously sucks for them. All that effort for what's more likely to be the same crappy outcome.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
above average
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 377

"Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school. The proportion of charters that get amazing results is far smaller than 17 percent.Why did Davis Guggenheim pay no attention to the charter schools that are run by incompetent leaders or corporations mainly concerned to make money? Why propound to an unknowing public the myth that charter schools are the answer to our educational woes, when the filmmaker knows that there are twice as many failing charters as there are successful ones? Why not give an honest accounting?"

http://brooklynian.com/forum/brooklyn-politics/educational-proficiency-of-black-students-lags-behind/page/2

These schools are disproportionately opening in communities of color and I think blacks should seriously be alarmed at this experimentation in their communities.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

Ishtar wrote:

"Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school. The proportion of charters that get amazing results is far smaller than 17 percent.Why did Davis Guggenheim pay no attention to the charter schools that are run by incompetent leaders or corporations mainly concerned to make money? Why propound to an unknowing public the myth that charter schools are the answer to our educational woes, when the filmmaker knows that there are twice as many failing charters as there are successful ones? Why not give an honest accounting?"

http://brooklynian.com/forum/brooklyn-politics/educational-proficiency-of-black-students-lags-behind/page/2

These schools are disproportionately opening in communities of color and I think blacks should seriously be alarmed at this experimentation in their communities.

Just for clarity: Ishtar pulled the quote from the film's comment section, but links back here by mistake.

Yes, I could not agree more.

We have a situation in which people are desperate, and they will try ANYTHING.

....in this way, charter schools have the power of a someone promising an untested cure to someone with cancer.

Researcher:    Do you consent to my untested treatment?

Patient:   I'm certainly going to die without any treatment, so yes.

....wherein the charter school takes on the role of the untested treatment, and education at zoned public schools is viewed as being "without any treatment".

But, despite this dire choice, I really want them to work.    I really want more middle class black families to be created.

As a result of such "lotteries", I really want more of the working class and poverty class families to see that their kid could learn, and then move ahead in our class structure too if they became heavily involved in their kid's education and life ....even if they (for example) are not literate or particularly employable.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Ishtar
above average
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 377

Sorry about the link screw up. Here is the correct link:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/

I completely agree, whynot_31.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

We now return to traditional public schools, and how they can be made to work in Crown Heights.

An article about the High School for Public Service, located on the grounds of Windgate high school

http://www.citylimits.org/conversations/121/making-urban-high-schools-work

P.S. The article does not mention that kids have to take and pass a test in order to get into the school. ....it still has an "urban population", and it seems to have found a way that kids can be reached and learn.

....it also seems to know how to get good press, which of course makes it a destination, which of course breeds more success :) http://www.citylimits.org/slideshow/412/from-chad-to-crown-heights-speaking-truth-to-power

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576072150101384830.html?mod=WSJ_NY_MIDDLELEADNewsCollection

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
xlizellx
rocking it
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,580

Xlizellx and any other teachers that want to weigh in, would you send your kids to the school where you teach?

No. I would not.

I think there are some GREAT teachers at my school. And there are some great students that I get to work with from time to time. If you said "hey, xlizellx, you can pick 25 students and remove them from your school. then would you send your kids there?" I think my answer might be different.

But I see a fist-fight a day. I hear cursing, hate-speech, screaming, etc. I see absolute disrespect for adults, vandalism, and destruction of property. I feel that sense of fear -scared for safety- in a lot of classrooms because one child is out of control and three or four other students are in a flight-or-fight mode and so now 5 kids in the classroom of 30 are putting their hands on people,, screaming, etc.

How am I to EFFECTIVELY teach when this is happening?

Example of what whynot was talking about:

Last week I was in a meeting. I left my lesson plans for the sub for the period. I returned to FIVE boys sitting in the office. I had to call all of their parents about a fight I wasn't there for. Apparently boys A and B both thought the other bumped into them when walking in the room so they both threw punches (why that would be their first reaction is my biggest concern). Boy C tried to break them up by grabbing boy A. Boys D and E are good friends with boy A so they grabbed boy C (a kid trying to do the right thing but shouldn't have gotten involved) and so they started hitting him to get him off of boy A.
All of this happened in less than 60 seconds. By the time the sub got to the boys Boy B had broken glasses and boy C had a black eye. They are in third grade.
The consequences? We met with the parents. Talked about how fighting is not the answer. Reminded the boys about our plan to "walk away or tell an adult" if someone does something, etc. But when they sit there and just keep saying "but he hit me first!" you can say "yes, but you can't hit him back" only so many times before you go insane.
No suspension. No detention. No NOTHING. What can we do? And even if we did have the ability to do something, who cares? As the boys on The Wire showed, suspension in the city simply means a day off of school. Sounds good to me.

Something needs to change in the way they react - and something needs to change in how they see adults react. When a parent threatens a teacher, pulls a gun in the lobby, screams at another person's kid, hits another parent, etc....how am I to tell these boys to keep their hands and mean words to themselves. The phrase "just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it" should be taught to some parents before a kid will pay you any attention.

Sorry -- this became more of a rant than a meaningful post. I do love a lot of what I do. But a few kids can really make it tough to do what you love to do.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

An article in the WSJ appears on the subject today, and I perceive it to be pretty balanced.

Please read the whole thing to get the full view of the struggle at hand....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704615504576172853056853260.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,096

The Smiley and West show recently discussed the NAACP's decision to sue NYC regarding its charter school implementation plans.

The conversation is worth listening to.

http://smileyandwest.ning.com/forum/topics/naacp-sues-nyc

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago