Has media bias convicted a man before all the facts could come out?

Brooklynian » Forum » Brooklyn Politics »

Has media bias convicted a man before all the facts could come out?

Share this!

12 Next »

armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.

The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested.

Martin's girlfriend had said in a recording obtained exclusively by ABC News that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "why are your following me, and then the man asked, what are you doing around here." She then heard a scuffle break out and the line went dead.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show.

Sabrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

Is the mother prolonging the cause to make money?

we know When Al Sharpton gets involved alot of race baiting, could this be another Tawana Brawley case?

If they don't convict Zimmerman could this turn into another LA riot?

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

AW-

I think the version of events you are posting is as subject to bias as the initial account of the events broadcast by the media.

When it is all said and done, I fear everyone is going to have a different view of what happened, including anyone who may have seen the events "firsthand".

AW » If they don't convict Zimmerman could this turn into another LA riot?

Yes, if the jury doesn't convict Zimmerman, I fear there will be some civil unrest.

I would like to think that Zimmerman was not arrested because the police did not believe they could get a conviction under Florida's Stand Your Ground Law.

However, like many in this country, I tend to believe that Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot if we changed only two variables: Make Zimmerman black, and the boy white.

While I'd love the magic powers to erase such racial biases, I'd also like to live in a culture in which deadly force is used less often, regardless of the race of the people involved in such incidences.

I fear laws such as Stand Your Ground encourage us to rely on deadly force more than intellect.

While we wait to see if the court system can give us a sense of justice, Chuck Schumer seems to be headed in an intelligent, level-headed direction.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/stand-ground-laws-reviewed-sen-chuck-schumer-article-1.1050601

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Idlewild
rocking it
Joined: Sep '05
Posts: 2,798

Give me a break. If you want to bash the media because of pictures they post, or the mother because she's getting in on a trademark deal, fine. But let's listen to the facts: a kid was being followed by a man with a gun. A fucking gun. Said man was told to back off by the police, because, as is my guess,they didn't want a confrontation where the parties involved might get hurt,or worse. Well, Worse happened. Perhaps, maybe, just maybe, the kid was defending himself from a man who was following him. A man he didn't know, and was carrying a piece. To me, the kid defended himself and lost his life for his trouble. What I'm really amazed at is the actions of the Sanford Police Department. No arrests, no identifying or releasing the body, testing for drugs on the victim and not the shooter - total incompetence. Criminal, actually.

"Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!

# Posted 1 yr ago
PragmaticGuy
above average
Joined: Apr '11
Posts: 426

If Zimmerman doesn't end up in jail for this there is no justice in America. Hell, the cops that shot Sean Bell were all fired or made to resign. There wasn't a whole lot of difference there when you think about it and it was four on one. It wasn't Zimmerman's job to confront anyone. Just WATCH and report to the police. Who, by the way, he called 59 times over the last few years to report "suspicious" activity. It wasn't reported whether those calls led to any arrests.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

It's funny that all of the sudden a conservative cares about mugshots being used in the media.

I will bet my entire bank account that person has never commented when it's a black suspect's mug shot on the evening news.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

A riot would be a good distraction for the political elite for both the right and left of the country.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

armchair_warrior said:
A riot would be a good distraction for the political elite for both the right and left of the country.

True.

In my view, riots rarely move a cause forward. In many cases, they end up further stigmatizing entire groups of people and setting them back economically and in other spheres.

I think it is important to draw a distinction between a "riot" and a "civil disturbance" or "movement". Needless to say, it is much easier to have a riot than a movement; the former seems to often only require angry young men.

....if you add hot weather and/or intoxication, you seem to end up with a sure fire recipe.

At the moment, Florida has a bunch of these ingredients.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

In my view, riots rarely move a cause forward.

Then you have a limited worldview.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Boygabriel said:

In my view, riots rarely move a cause forward.

Then you have a limited worldview.

Or, I may have a different definition of "riot" vs "civil disturbance" than you.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

Yeah, it seems yours is tautological.

If it works, it's a civil disturbance. If it doesn't it's an ineffective riot.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Assuming this case goes to trial, do you think public opinion will be as lopsided as the OJ Simpson verdict?

....Whites overwhelmingly believed the black guy was guilty of killing his white wife, while blacks overwhelming believed the opposite.

In this case, will more blacks believe Zimmerman is guilty of whatever he ends up charged with than whites?

Given that everyone is forming opinion on the case based on what they have heard in the various forms of biased media, will they have to go to Russia to find a fair jury pool?

P.S. I'm not sure I completely agree with Wiki, but it is getting better all the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disturbance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
PragmaticGuy
above average
Joined: Apr '11
Posts: 426

With the O.J. verdict it was the cops who screwed up. I read Dershowitz's book that he wrote about the trial and based on what went down there was no way an acquittal wasn't warranted. Especially when Furman perjured himself. This is a whole other scenario. And what's really bad is that Florida's law gives the killer the benefit of the doubt because he's the only one left alive to testify as there were no real witnesses. I wonder what the end result would b be if Trayvon killed Zimmerman either with or without the gun. Do you think he'd be let off as well? No one seems to be discussing that.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Dershowitz is certainly entitled to an opinion. But I've gotta say that I followed a lot that trial and ended up surprised that he was not found guilty, and that my fellow viewers had varying opinions despite seeing the same "evidence".

Yes, the Stand Your Ground law certainly complicates things.

I think if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, he'd be unable to convince the jury (much less the public) that he acted in self defense. Depending upon which media got the story first, Zimmerman might be painted as the equivalent of a "murdered hero cop", and might even get a post mortem parade out of the deal. Trayvon might end up fighting the death penalty if Florida has it.

Let's look at a non-fatal scenario:
If Trayvon and Zimmerman just came to blows and the cops showed up while they were slugging it out, do you think both would have been charged with assault?

In my experience, both fighters are usually charged with assault in the case of drunken bar fights. In such a scenario of "black teen vs white neighborhood busybody", do we think Zimmerman would gotten to get together later with police once they were off duty for a beer?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
PragmaticGuy
above average
Joined: Apr '11
Posts: 426

Like I said, Zimmerman called the cops numerous times over the years. Was it a case of the "boy who cried wolf" or was he really providing a service. Without knowing what his results were it's hard to say how cops would have treated him in this instance. He may have been portrayed as a hero or maybe just a pain in the ass who finally "got his."

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

whynot_31 said:

P.S. I'm not sure I completely agree with Wiki, but it is getting better all the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disturbance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot

I like how your PS was actually the central point I made. It's cute when you try to redirect like that.

According to that definition, there are many riots throughout history that furthered their cause.

Look at South Africa in the 20th century.

Or the riots in the US in the 20th century prior to the fall of Jim Crow.

As I said, your view that "riots rarely move a cause forward" is indeed a very limited one that in all likelihood has more to do you with your life experience rather than a study of actual social movements.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

Oh rightwing nut jobs, do you ever do due diligence?

That photo of "Trayvon" from AW's original post is not only NOT Trayvon, it comes from Stormfront, the white supremacist message boards we all know and love.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/trayvon_martin_no_thats_not_hi.php

If you haven't come across the photo to the right, you probably will in the next day or two. Gross racists and assorted other morons are claiming that it's from the Facebook page of Trayvon Martin, the teenager shot and killed by neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman in Sanford, and that somehow that has bearing on the case.

There is no evidence that the photo is of Trayvon Martin, although there is plenty of evidence against it.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Boygabriel said:
Oh rightwing nut jobs, do you ever do due diligence?

That photo of "Trayvon" from AW's original post is not only NOT Trayvon, it comes from Stormfront, the white supremacist message boards we all know and love.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/trayvon_martin_no_thats_not_hi.php

If you haven't come across the photo to the right, you probably will in the next day or two. Gross racists and assorted other morons are claiming that it's from the Facebook page of Trayvon Martin, the teenager shot and killed by neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman in Sanford, and that somehow that has bearing on the case.

There is no evidence that the photo is of Trayvon Martin, although there is plenty of evidence against it.

Isn't the media fun!

As a result of no source being unbiased and then having everything filtered thru the lens we have created as a result of our life experience, the "truth" is hard to define, much less find.

This is why I think it is best to let a jury decide, and/or avoid being on a jury out of a fear that I may have to decide someone's fate based solely on information that is equally biased.

What I hope happens is this:
1. We charge him with something if we believe that a law has been broken.

2. We get the best prosecutor and defense attorney's available (this is a career make or break case!).

3. While I'd love to find a unbiased jury, I don't think such things exist. The best we can do is get a pool of jurors who does the best they can while using their life experiences.

4. We should then accept their decision (regardless of what it is) as being the best that can be achieved under our system.

Until then, I hope everyone realizes that all justice systems are limited. ...some people believe that our system is biased toward letting the guilty go free in order to avoid having innocent people in jail!

Constant tweaking is needed.

P.S. I hope all sides are equally good at creating propaganda. This is a battle where there are things to be won and lost both in the court room and in the public arena!

...after all, a lot seems to be at stake.

Who knows, given the right mix, we might even get a riot.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

PragmaticGuy said:
Like I said, Zimmerman called the cops numerous times over the years. Was it a case of the "boy who cried wolf" or was he really providing a service. Without knowing what his results were it's hard to say how cops would have treated him in this instance. He may have been portrayed as a hero or maybe just a pain in the ass who finally "got his."

Correct, given the situation and the media spin, we will never know whether we should think of Zimmerman as the "neighborhood do gooder", or a "neighborhood wack job".

We all know both exist, but I find it fun to wonder how would I would have perceived Zimmerman had I known him before this incident.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html#ixzz1qLsCAgGX

This could be another duke lacrosse case.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html#ixzz1qLsCAgGXYes, the articles just keep coming.

This is the beginning of a field day for media, and those who have agendas of just about every variety.

Unless some other big news event happens to take the spotlight, the police with gets lots of overtime, and the local diners and motels in FL will fill up with reporters.

AW » This could be another duke lacrosse case.

It could. Like this case, that case was a complete mess of politics and culture that captured the world's fascination and rage.

I know it isn't possible because everyone is human, but I hope the prosecutor will focus exclusively on the evidence available, and not be swayed by things like public opinion and the possibility of a huge career boost.

Likewise, I would hate for the police and prosecution to be influenced (in either direction) by the perceived threat of a riot.

Riots unfortunately happen on occasion, and the threat of them should not threaten the (already limited) integrity of our justice system. Hopefully any riots that happen will not cause too much death or damage to property; it would be great if they matured into social movements that make real change.

It is times like these when people make decisions about whether our justice system is largely based on something that resembles "objective" (?) evidence, or largely based on public opinion (fear of consequences).

Such decisions that then taint our view of the system for the rest of our lives.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
rezist
getting it
Joined: Oct '07
Posts: 138

I wish this much energy and attention was going towards black on black crime. As per the "facts" that I am aware of so far zimmerman didn't break the law and shouldn't be charged. I'm not commenting on my opinon of the law itself but instead of calling for justice, which I'm confused about as again zimmerman didn't break any laws (he was seen on the ground before the shooting took place,) I think that the focus should be on repealing the law. If I see.hear someone in my back yard and go out to investigate with my gun and am attacked after a verbal altercation (that let's say I started) I'd shoot. This may have not occurred in zimmerman's exact back yard but it was in his immediate neighborhood, and he was part of the neighborhood watch. As I understand it there was a recent uptick in local robberies.

Just curious about what a few of you guys were talking about... the whole riots leading to progress. I would assume that throughout history there have been only a very small percent of riots that have actually moved a cause forward. There are riots after sports events all the time, riots after coach Joe Paterno was axed, riots in crown heights, rochester ny, riots in England, riots in France, and we all remember the rodney king riots.These are just a few more recent ones.

All that said I'm sure more information will come out and my opinions will change.I just wish that someday all of the energy and activism that is in response to police on black crime would be directed (with such passion) towards black on black crime as well.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

With Twitter and Facebook continuing to explode with posts purporting to contain the address of George Zimmerman, property records and interviews reveal that the home is actually the longtime residence of a married Florida couple, both in their 70s, who have no connection to the man who killed Trayvon Martin and are now living in fear due to erroneous reports about their connection to the shooter.

The mass dissemination of the address on Edgewater Circle in Sanford--the Florida city where Martin was shot to death last month--took flight last Friday when director Spike Lee retweeted a tweet containing Zimmerman’s purported address to his 240,000 followers.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/spike-lee-zimmerman-tweet-567891

Oh no you didn't spike lee. If i was the elderly couple sue the pants off spike lee.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

rezist said:
I wish this much energy and attention was going towards black on black crime.

Doesn't get the race baiters like Al sharpton or tv cameras. if it was about black on black crime. It happens every day so people are used to it being the "norm".

But when it's white on black crime, you'll get cameras and Al. Hell most media thought the dude was white till they started to looking into him they found he was hispanic white instead.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Predictably, Black conservatives (C.L. Bryant, Herman Cain, Deneen Borelli) are using the event as an occasion to voice animosity toward their longtime enemies, Black liberals (Al Sharpon, Jesse Jackson).

Here's a sample of the the spin:

dailycaller » Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.”

“His family should be outraged at the fact that they’re using this child as the bait to inflame racial passions,” Rev. C.L. Bryant said in a Monday interview with The Daily Caller.

The conservative black pastor who was once the chapter president of the Garland, Texas NAACP called Jackson and Sharpton “race hustlers” and said they are “acting as though they are buzzards circling the carcass of this young boy.”

Jackson, for example, recently said Martin’s death shows how “blacks are under attack” and “targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business.” (SEE ALSO: Jesse Jackson says Trayvon Martin ‘murdered and martyred’)

George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain, killed Martin, a 17-year-old black man who was unarmed at the time of his death, last month. Zimmerman has claimed to have shot Martin in self-defense and has not been charged with a crime.

But Bryant, who explores the topic of black-on-black crime in his new film “Runaway Slave,” said people like Jackson and Sharpton are being misleading to suggest there is an epidemic of “white men killing black young men.”

“The epidemic is truly black on black crime,” Bryant said. “The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men.”

Bryant said he wishes civil rights leaders were protesting those problems.

“Why not be angry about the wholesale murder that goes on in the streets of Newark and Chicago?” he asked. “Why isn’t somebody angry about that six-year-old girl who was killed on her steps last weekend in a cross fire when two gang members in Chicago start shooting at each other? Why is there no outrage about that?”

Bryant said he worries that “people like Sharpton and those on the left” will make Martin’s death a campaign issue in the presidential race.

He speculated that they will “turn this evolving tragedy of this young man into fodder to say… if you don’t re-elect Obama then you will have unbridled events or circumstances like this happening in the streets to young men wearing hoodies.” (RELATED: Herman Cain criticizes ‘swirling rhetoric’ after Martin shooting)

He also criticized President Obama for his “nebulous statement” responding to Martin’s death that “if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

“What does that mean?” Bryant asked. “What was the purpose in that?”

source: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/#ixzz1qNetSq7M
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

...this is turning into quite a circus.

Obama and many of the presidential candidates have already weighted in. Lots of famous people are weighing in, and I wish I could predict who will weigh in on the issue next.

Has anyone heard from the NRA or the gun manufacturer?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Based on what they had heard from the media about Trevon's death, these teenage students held a rally and then decided to use his death as an excuse to rob a local Walgreens.

While I certainly understand wanting to live in a world where teenagers are not killed, many people do not seem to believe that such actions may make such a world further away, not closer.
.
.
.

This story is evolving pretty fast, but I imagine it will calm down soon, and the various sides will settle into predictable narratives. Once this happens, those who express a view on the case will be assumed to share the larger political views of the media sources that they happen to agree with.

i.e. Those who believe that Zimmerman should be arrested might be assumed to be "liberal" and "against racism".

i.e. Those who believe that Zimmerman has not violated the law as it is presently written and therefore should not be arrested, might be assumed to be "conservative" and "racist".

....such assumptions are often silly.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

funny thing is Zimmerman is a register Democrat.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

AW - remember when you posted a false photo of Trayvon but it was really from a racist white supremacist web site?

That was hilarious.

Maybe you should be more careful in the future.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

Sadly, this whole thing is becoming hilarious.

Some folks are trying to depict Trayvon as either a innocent victim or a villain.

Zimmerman is being painted as either an over zealous neighborhood watchman, and/or as someone who defended himself.

...everyone is spreading what they have "heard" as if it is "information", in part so they can affirm what they already believe to be true.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

i just repost stuff i see :p. not that anyone is checking facts, not nbc or abc etc.. lol.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

I honestly think they are jumping the gun here until all the facts are out. So i'm just trying to balance it out, because in nyc we only hear oh how bad evil this guy is...

one picture :p big deal lol.

also biggest fear is a LA riot type of situation. from the facts we know, I doubt the guy is going to found guilty.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

AW-
There are few facts to be checked. I think it is interesting to see how this story is being reported by the various media sources, and in various parts of the country.

Many of the media sources have become so desperate for views and/or ad revenue that they will run things they know to have no basis so that the ensuing controversy brings viewers.

The internet and TV have become what used to be confined to Shock Jock radio.

Yes, if their is a riot, the media should be partly to blame for spreading hyperbole and half truths

....but I don't know how we could could hold the media accountable without throwing out our Bill of Rights.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

whynot_31 said:
Sadly, this whole thing is becoming hilarious.

Some folks are trying to depict Trayvon as either a innocent victim or a villain.

Zimmerman is being painted as either an over zealous neighborhood watchman, and/or as someone who defended himself.

...everyone is spreading what they have "heard" as if it is "information", in part so they can affirm what they already believe to be true.

I don't find it that amusing.

I also encourage anyone here to proclaim support for the stand your ground law, or the actions of Zimmerman based on basic facts of the Trayvon Martin case. So we can "discuss".

armchair_warrior said:
i just repost stuff i see :p. not that anyone is checking facts, not nbc or abc etc.. lol.

Yeah, stuff that implies that if Trayvon wears thuggy clothes it's ok that he got shot to death.

You and Geraldo Rivera.

Own what you post.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

whynot_31 said:

Many of the media sources have become so desperate for views and/or ad revenue that they will run things they know to have no basis so that the ensuing controversy brings viewers.

Can you cite some examples?

Otherwise your argument is weak.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
homeowner
mod
Joined: Jan '06
Posts: 3,036

What additional facts need to come out? There was a kid walking down a street who it has been confirmed was on his way from the store back to a home in the community he was visiting. The neighborhood watch thought he was suspicious and called the police. The police advised the caller to not approach the kid. The man disobeyed and approached the kid. A shot was fired and the kid died.

At the point that the guy with the gun does not follow the direction of the police and approaches the kid on the street, all bets are off. Its not as if he saw the kid approaching a home, entering a house or doing anything other than continuing to walk down the street. There was no change in facts or circumstances that would have made his refusal to comply with the dispatchers request reasonable. He gambled on the fact that this kid was up to no good and both he and the kid lost.

He should be punished for his arrogance and stupidity to the fullest extent of the law because he took someone's life in a completely avoidable circumstance.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

who said its okay,

i'm just trying to balance out the negative about Zimmerman with negative about Trayvon, Trayvon did get caught with tons of women jewelry and burglary tools and that's why he got suspended from school.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

according to the witness who did see it according to the news that is leaked.

Trayvon attack the guy, guy was on the floor getting beaten. one screaming for help is Zimmerman not Trayvon. That is the only known fact. SO what if idiot follow Trayvon. doesn't give Trayvon to beat the snot out of someone and when you beat someone who has a gun, stupid move.

Its bringing fist to a gun fight.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
homeowner
mod
Joined: Jan '06
Posts: 3,036

Lets assume Zimmerman's version of the fight that occurred is correct, and he was getting beaten up, that only occurred because he APPROACHED this kid after following him down the block. Should the boy have run away instead of fighting? Probably, but to say that its unreasonable that he tried to fight off someone who was stalking him and then pulled a weapon on him is ridiculous.

Or let me put it this way. If a white guy walking down Bergen Street in Brooklyn sees himself being followed by a black kid, has the kid approach him and then attack him, would you be saying that the guy was wrong for fighting back?

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

homeowner said:
What additional facts need to come out? There was a kid walking down a street who it has been confirmed was on his way from the store back to a home in the community he was visiting. The neighborhood watch thought he was suspicious and called the police. The police advised the caller to not approach the kid. The man disobeyed and approached the kid. A shot was fired and the kid died.

At the point that the guy with the gun does not follow the direction of the police and approaches the kid on the street, all bets are off. Its not as if he saw the kid approaching a home, entering a house or doing anything other than continuing to walk down the street. There was no change in facts or circumstances that would have made his refusal to comply with the dispatchers request reasonable. He gambled on the fact that this kid was up to no good and both he and the kid lost.

He should be punished for his arrogance and stupidity to the fullest extent of the law because he took someone's life in a completely avoidable circumstance.

Yes, this is the narrative that I find most believable, and if I was to be selected for the jury, I would have a hard time hearing anything else.

Let's see if the Stand Your Ground Law can allow what I perceive to be justice to even be considered.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

whynot_31 » Many of the media sources have become so desperate for views and/or ad revenue that they will run things they know to have no basis so that the ensuing controversy brings viewers.

------------------------------

Boygabriel said:
Can you cite some examples?

Otherwise your argument is weak.

If I want you to agree with me about the media making things up, can I just cite right wing media?

Is the left magically immune from such temptations?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

homeowner said:
Lets assume Zimmerman's version of the fight that occurred is correct, and he was getting beaten up, that only occurred because he APPROACHED this kid after following him down the block. Should the boy have run away instead of fighting? Probably, but to say that its unreasonable that he tried to fight off someone who was stalking him and then pulled a weapon on him is ridiculous.

Homeowner-
Do you remember the Patrick Dorismond incident?

Depending upon the version of the story you believe, two white undercover police approached two black guys and said "hey, you know where we can score drugs?"

One of the black guys then said: "Are you assuming we know where drugs sold and that we will help you score because we are black?"

One of the white guys then said: "So what if I am?"

Black guy then slugs white guy. White guy quickly begins to lose fight and then kills the black guy with service weapon.

At the time, much of the debate focused on whether the black guys knew the white guys were cops when the fighting began.

I think the Trayvon case is similar in several ways:

Like Patrick Dorismond, Trayvon may have understandably attempted to "right a disrespect from someone smaller than him", yet not have been aware that he was entering a fight he had no chance of winning.

- EVEN IF Trayvon threw the first punch and was "winning", Zimmerman's life was never in danger to the degree that he should have killed Trayvon. When you take on someone you shouldn't, you should end up with a broken nose or an arrest. If I assault you for disrespecting me, you are not authorized to kill me.

- The law should not be written in such a way that you can be armed and thus given the confidence to act like a jerk, because you know that you can use deadly force against your opponent if are losing a physical fight.

In my world, both Zimmerman and the cops involved in the Dorismond killing would fail to meet my standard.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
stacey
rocking it
Joined: Mar '05
Posts: 3,529

I just want to say that Homeowner said it perfectly above - cops said don't follow and he did. End of story. If he was beaten so bad where are his bruises, where is his medical report, where is the police report which states where his injuries are?

As to the witness of this - where is this person, where is the report? where is the proof? Meanwhile the girl who was on the phone with Trayvon has the phone records to prove it.

Bringing up his school history is ridiculous - I had done the same or even slightly worse things than he has. I was kicked out of one school to attend another where I had my own little scrap-ups. To those who know me in the real world and those who have come to know me here - am I a bad person now that deserves to die?

As far as the photo with the grill - when we were young we wore crazy things (shell top adidas with thick laces that were never tied, shaving lines into our hair, piercing our noses, etc.) why does a gold grill make him a bad person? Is everyone who makes duck faces in photos a douche? 20 years ago if tattoos were called "thuggish" and now everyone has one.

To say a hoodie was what made him look thugish is ridiculous - I wear a hoodie on a bad hair day, my bald husband wears a hoodie to keep his head warm. Its ridiculous to even use that as an excuse.

As for the mother copyrighting she has already stated that she is doing this to make money to help other families who are going through a tough situation. I personally can think of no greater way to honor her son than to make something positive come out of this.

Boygabriel - while I usually agree with you I have to say that I too am not a fan of riots. Unfortunately when riots happen no one wins, the city pays out lawsuits, small business are ruined and/or lose money, and innocent people get hurt or killed. I DO agree with civil disobedience. I would much rather have traffic interrupted or my commute delayed than to hear of a tragic killing or damage to properties and businesses.

# Posted 1 yr ago
rezist
getting it
Joined: Oct '07
Posts: 138

This incident wouldn't have made it out of the local news if the killer was black and the attacker was was white or any other race/color. I don't think any of us registered on this website is capable of authoring a law ( I could be wrong) The stand your ground law is based on this premiss

"A stand-your-ground law states that a person may use deadly force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first."

It doesn't say or describe in detail that you can only use deadly force when someone has beaten you to within 30 seconds of your life, has a gun, a knife, etc... The law, no matter ones opinion is what it is. I'd like to see those of you who are against the law find out how many times the law has worked to help victims of violence and also find out how much these types of laws work to decrease violent crime due to criminals knowing that there could be immediate consequences to their actions.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

rezist-
You are getting very close to what I consider to be the crux of this issue:

Notably, if the law allows one to kill someone when they feel threatened, we can't just pick and choose when it should be applied.

Unless the act meets the explicit standards of a Hate Crime, we can't let the fact that Zimmerman and Trayvon were of different races influence whether Zimmerman gets the protections afforded to others under the Stand Your Ground laws.

No matter how we feel about what happened, or what kind of world we want to live in (see end of my Dorismond post above), if someone's actions are protected by law, they should not be charged with one and/or found not guilty.

If he did this in NYC, we'd likely have all sorts of charges to throw at him: gun possession, attempted murder, etc. However, we may have to accept that this type of behavior is not prohibited by law in all states.

If the people of FL don't like the law, it is their obligation to change it. The federal government swooping to the rescue is not a real answer.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

so you guys think its okay to beat someone just for following you, geezus fing christ. you know how many beaten up thugs etc.. there would be in nyc? simply because alot of people walk the same direction. can't assume you are being followed. even if you are, if they are within distance and not doing anything but surveillance. you're still asking for tons of trouble.

gives nobody rights to beat up someone for just walking the same way. until they put their hands on you than you could beat the snot out of them.

I been follow by more than you guys ever know. by local thugs wanting to rob me etc.. i couldn't do anything. i could cross the street. they'll cross the street. etc.. until that point, its just instinct and street smarts. if i laid a hand on those thugs, cops would arrest me etc...

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
homeowner
mod
Joined: Jan '06
Posts: 3,036

Rezizt, the problem in this case is that a good civil attorney is going to be able to show that there was an intervening duty to retreat in Zimmerman's case (the direction from the 911 dispatcher not to pursue the kid). Compare that to thiscase, where the judge has rules that the killer had no duty to retreat when pursuing someone who stole his property. Also note that the SA has clearly stated that the concept of using deadly force to retrieve property is an overreach by the judge.

Bottom line is that when you contact the police, they tell you not to do something, you do it anyway and it results in someone dying, you shouldn't be able to hide behind this law. There would have been no altercation if he hadn't disobeyed the police.

SYG has not been a panneca and from what I've read have had many weird and unexpected outcomes that the public has not been comfortable with.

As for writing laws, there are at least two in NY that I've amended. Its really not that hard. You write the language, find some legislator to introduce it, and work with their staff to get it passed. Don't assume there are some really wise and learned men and women sitting in Albany coming up with laws. The reality is a lot of our laws are written by self-interested parties that are willing to do a little work (and possibly grease a few palms) in order to get laws that meet their particular needs. I guarantee that the SYG was either originally authored or significantly supported by various special interests who benefit directly from the passage of such laws. They know that in most cases the people who get killed as a result of the law aren't going to garner enough sympathy in order to make people change the law.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,947

ny citizens has no rights lol if they write any more legislation, they might as well give keys to every home to muggers.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
stacey
rocking it
Joined: Mar '05
Posts: 3,529

rezist said:

"A stand-your-ground law states that a person may use deadly force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first."

It doesn't say or describe in detail that you can only use deadly force when someone has beaten you to within 30 seconds of your life, has a gun, a knife, etc... The law, no matter ones opinion is what it is. I'd like to see those of you who are against the law find out how many times the law has worked to help victims of violence and also find out how much these types of laws work to decrease violent crime due to criminals knowing that there could be immediate consequences to their actions.

First of all I think the law is ridiculous and too broad to do any good. But lets look at it in THIS situation. If I was the DA in this case I could also make an argument that Zimmerman in fact broke the law "before" he was even in danger, i.e. stalking:

((2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.).

After the police specifically told Zimmerman not to follow this man - he "willfully" follows him. Under this law Trayvon would have been in his right (if he had a gun on him) to then shoot Zimmerman and if he did attack Zimmerman it was thus justified under this law. If Trayvon uses his hands and not a gun should Zimmerman be justified in shooting him?

I have to say that I could care less what color combination commits these crimes - I am a human being and it pains me no matter what. This hits home because I am the mother of a 16 year old son.

As far as it diminishing crime - I think no matter what it will still happen and this law will not diminish that. Criminal will just try and be "quicker on the draw".

# Posted 1 yr ago
rezist
getting it
Joined: Oct '07
Posts: 138

Some very good point guys. I'd like to know if the police officer or 911 dispatcher was aware of the fact that zimmerman was part of a neighborhood watch squad. If not, the order to not follow martin was incorrectly given as following and observing and in some cases engaging people is part of the job for a watch.

I was a PAC TAC member for quite awhile and we walked the neighborhood observing recording and reporting on what was going on... we would often interact with people and would basically act as witnesses and deterrents to crimes/suspicious activity. We had police support and direct communication via police radios.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,386

I'm not sure how much "moral weight" I give the dispatcher's instructions.

I mean even she had said "follow him", would this have changed Zimmerman's level of responsibility?

I'd hate to think that because I call 911, the operator suddenly is put in the position of being my "supervisor". Doesn't the responsibility for my behavior still reside with me?

Likewise, different states allow varying level of privileges based on whether people are trained as security guards, or the owners of the property the incident is occurring on.

Let's assume you are allowed (and even encouraged) to follow someone; this is not the same as being able to engage them and use deadly force.

Or, if we use Zimmerman's account of the story: This is not the same as defending yourself from a beating with deadly force.

While I don't sanction such activity, I'm ok with others being able to strike someone without ending up dead. ...frankly, we have a court and penal system that is pretty full of such people.

I keep thinking about a bar fight scenario. The old standard seemed to be if a combatant picked up a weapon (bottle, knife, gun etc) they got arrested as a "perp" while the other was the "victim".

This SYG law seems to imply that no one is perp or victim; we are all free to arm ourselves.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago