So is the Nobel Peace Prize winner gonna start another war?

Brooklynian » Forum » Brooklyn Politics »

So is the Nobel Peace Prize winner gonna start another war?

Share this!

armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

Hey he did reshuffle two guys around from cia to military and from military to cia.

now this. Sounds like a good excuse to start a war and win a election.

The Pakistani government, through its intelligence service, is "actively involved" in directing the militant Haqqani network to launch terrorist attacks against U.S. and Afghan government targets in Kabul, U.S. military officials tell NBC News...

...In his final congressional testimony before retiring next week, Mullen said success in Afghanistan is threatened by the Pakistani government's support for the Haqqani network.

Repeating a charge he made earlier this week, Mullen said Thursday that with Pakistani support the Haqqanis were behind not only the Sept. 13 embassy assault but also a recent truck bomb that wounded 77 U.S. soldiers and a June 28 attack against the Inter-Continental Hotel in Kabul — as well as "a host of other smaller but effective operations."

Mullen said Pakistani intelligence is using the Haqqanis and other extremist groups as its proxies inside Afghanistan.

Mullen said Pakistan's government has chosen to "use violent extremism as an instrument of policy," adding that "by exporting violence, they have eroded their internal security and their position in the region. They have undermined their international credibility and threatened their economic well-being."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44627163/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/#.TnvMXtRNXRZ

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
BrooklynBoyyee
getting it
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 74

you need to get laid.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

Get all troops out now.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

No longer so secret drone bases. Future war on the cheap I suppose.

The United States is building a ring of secret drone bases in the Horn of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula as part of an aggressive campaign against al Qaeda affiliates in Somalia and Yemen, The Washington Post reported on Wednesday, citing U.S. officials.

One base for the unmanned aircraft is being established in Ethiopia and another base has been installed in the Seychelles in the Indian Ocean, the newspaper reported.

A small fleet of "hunter-killer" drones resumed operations in the islands this month after an experimental mission demonstrated that the unmanned drones could effectively patrol Somalia from there, the report said.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-builds-drone-bases-africa-arab-peninsula-report-044158461.html

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

BrooklynBoyyee said:
you need to get laid.

mayhaps.

any single educated ladies with a career interested in a sam.

I assure you I'm not a music producer :p.

If it doesn't work I'll continue my posting mission.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Off the top of my head here is a list of places the US has engaged in "almost traditional" combat operations at some point since 1990.

I'm sure an accurate list is much longer.

Iraq

Pakistan

Yemen

Somalia

Oman

Afghanistan

El Salvador

Nicaragua

Ethiopia

Indonesia

Cambodia

Panama

Grenada

Haiti

Philippines

Myanmar

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

I still can't believe dude won a Nobel peace prize for doing nothing peaceful!

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

armchair_warrior said:
I still can't believe dude won a Nobel peace prize for doing nothing peaceful!

The Nobel Prize committee will never recover from giving Obama an award on the "mere basis" that they thought he would run the US military nothing like Bush.

(the suckers have only themselves to blame)

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

A true man of integrity and humbleness would of refuse the prize from the outset since he was new in office.

But to run for office generally means you aren't humble to begin with LOL. integrity can be debated.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Lot of folks were concerned about the Nobel Prize organization's process and politics when they made the award.

It is sad to see a reputable organization so quickly lose all of its credibility.

....it's kind of like what happened to the ADL, when they foolishly stated that a mosque and community center should be prohibited in Lower Manhattan.

Everyone with any sense either:
a. stopped donating to them,

b. stopped respecting them as an intelligent source of information,

c. wrote them a letter that says if you ever do something again so stupid, we will withdrawal our support, and/or

d. had their long-held suspicions about the organization being unable to see anything but their own agenda, confirmed.

Hopefully the ADL and the Nobel Prize folks will be able to learn from their mistakes, be forgiven by their supporters, regain their reputations and realize that they will need to repeatedly announce how they will be much more careful in the future.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

It was exceptionally stupid by the Nobel Prize Committee.

I am still shocked.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

armchair_warrior said:
No longer so secret drone bases. Future war on the cheap I suppose.

The United States is building a ring of secret drone bases in the Horn of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula as part of an aggressive campaign against al Qaeda affiliates in Somalia and Yemen, The Washington Post reported on Wednesday, citing U.S. officials.

One base for the unmanned aircraft is being established in Ethiopia and another base has been installed in the Seychelles in the Indian Ocean, the newspaper reported.

A small fleet of "hunter-killer" drones resumed operations in the islands this month after an experimental mission demonstrated that the unmanned drones could effectively patrol Somalia from there, the report said.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-builds-drone-bases-africa-arab-peninsula-report-044158461.html

Our drones are one of the most disgusting, illegal and morally indefensible "foreign policy" initiatives in recent memory.

And that is truly saying something.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Do you really believe that sending in armed drones is worse than sending in armed humans?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

whynot_31 said:
Do you really believe that sending in armed drones is worse than sending in armed humans?

The problem is that the choice isn't "troops or drones". In many cases I think it's "drones or nothing".

Having to send in real live human Americans is somewhat of a check on our awful wars and militarism.

Drones free politicians and military leaders from this constraint.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

I think we will have to wait and see if we use drones more often than we used humans. ....we used humans (CIA, mercenaries, US armed forces, the countries of other armies, etc) a hell of a lot, and continue to use them a hell of a lot.

I'm certain drones aren't ever going to go away, so on the positive side, we will have lots of time to do our comparisons.

Happy Friday Everyone!

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

To know the answer to that the government would have to tell us how much they're relying on drones, and even more importantly to me, how many times they kill innocent people as they're being flown via cameras controlled by computers located in Nevada somewhere.

Drones are the next step in the military industrial complex's ongoing campaign with the government to overcome obstacles such as public oversight or basic human rights of people who are unfortunate enough to not be born in the United States or Europe.

Private military contractors (who shoot their guns at people - not chefs & janitors) are a similar and completely related development.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Most people are completely unaware of how often the US uses (and has used) armed humans throughout the world, are drones really going to be different?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

In my opinion? Yes.

Regardless of who is being armed (proxies, contractors or US military), there are less obstacles when firing cruise missiles from a computer in Nevada than there are when there are boots on the ground. When humans are involved.

I also think the likelihood of innocent civilians being targeted is exponentially higher.

They represent a concrete step forward towards war crimes being committed more often.

No doubt in my mind.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
booklaw
admin
Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 2,406

Once we decide we're going to wreak havoc and destruction on a foreign country (which should not be a facile decision!), I'd just as soon as not risk young American men and women's lives and limbs in the process.

If we have to go in, I say send in the drones!

We don't need to, and should not, occupy foreign lands.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

I'm with Booklaw.

Not only are drones here to stay, but I believe that the main thing that has stopped us from killing people elsewhere has not been the certainty (not "risk") of lost lives of service members, it has been the fact that we might not achieve whatever our mission is in the Foreign Land of the Day.

Although "we don't need to, and should not, occupy foreign lands", I suspect that we are going to keep doing it for a variety of reasons.

Hence, I would like the military to have access to more drones.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

When servicepeople die, questions sometimes get asked (on the rare instance the traditional media does its job).

Questions especially get asked when the once in a blue moon happens and the public finds out about a war in a place we're not supposed to be fighting.

Drones remove much of the public or media's impetus to investigate or even hear about dead Americans and hidden wars.

Equally important, as I said, drones significantly raise the likelihood that innocents will get killed.

We've been using drones to blow up wedding parties on the Af-Pak border for almost a decade now. It is likely that boots-on-the-ground would be far less likely to mistake a wedding party for a group of militants.

Drone technology is simply not accurate enough to justify the rate of loss of innocent life.

If it was innocent Americans dying we'd care a lot more.

Personally, I care no matter the nationality.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Over the next 20 or so years, we will see if the combatant to non-combatant kill ratio of drones is better than the present methods (soldiers, artillery, bombers, missiles, etc) we have heavily relied on over the past 50 years.

Depending upon the type and the length of engagement, many traditionally fought conflicts kill 20x as many civilians as they do armed combatants.

Hopefully drones will be better at only killing their target.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

All this gets me thinking: we should really stop engaging in hostilities that kill so many civilians.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Until we make that happen, I'll support technologies that have the potential of being more accurate.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

All those dead Iraqi's one day there would be blood to be paid.

anyway Nobel folks aren't the only ones that has to answer. America media is another group.

here is a interesting opinion on it, from outside US.

As the bad economic news continues to emanate from the United States — with a double-dip recession now all but certain — a reckoning is overdue. American journalism will have to look back at the period starting with Barack Obama’s rise, his assumption of the presidency and his conduct in it to the present, and ask itself how it came to cast aside so many of its vital functions. In the main, the establishment American media abandoned its critical faculties during the Obama campaign — and it hasn’t reclaimed them since.

Much of the Obama coverage was orchestrated sycophancy. They glided past his pretensions — when did a presidential candidate before “address the world” from the Brandenberg Gate in Berlin? They ignored his arrogance — “You’re likable enough, Hillary.” And they averted their eyes from his every gaffe — such as the admission that he didn’t speak “Austrian.”

The media walked right past the decades-long association of Obama with the weird and racist pastor Jeremiah Wright. In the midst of the brief stormlet over the issue, one CNN host — inexplicably — decided that CNN was going to be a “Wright-free zone.” He could have hung out a sign: “No bad news about Obama here.”

The media trashed Hillary. They burned Republicans. They ransacked Sarah Palin and her family. But Obama, the cool, the detached, the oracular Obama — he strolled to the presidency.

Palin, in particular, stands out as Obama’s opposite in the media’s eyes. As much as they genuflected to the one, they felt the need to turn rottweiler toward the other. If Obama was sacred , classy, intellectual and cosmopolitan, why then Palin must be malevolent, trashy, dumb and pure backwoods-ignorant.

read more : http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/17/rex-murphy-the-medias-love-affair-with-a-disastrous-president/

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

I miss the field of Journalism.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

whynot_31 said:
Until we make that happen, I'll support technologies that have the potential of being more accurate.

The idea that we have technologies that are accurate enough to significantly reduce dead civilians while technically may be true, just feeds the lie that most Americans believe: our exploits minimize civilian deaths.

It's like calling new coal standards "clean coal".

It's marginally cleaner, but it is by no means clean.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

armchair_warrior said:
All those dead Iraqi's one day there would be blood to be paid.

anyway Nobel folks aren't the only ones that has to answer. America media is another group.

here is a interesting opinion on it, from outside US.

As the bad economic news continues to emanate from the United States — with a double-dip recession now all but certain — a reckoning is overdue. American journalism will have to look back at the period starting with Barack Obama’s rise, his assumption of the presidency and his conduct in it to the present, and ask itself how it came to cast aside so many of its vital functions. In the main, the establishment American media abandoned its critical faculties during the Obama campaign — and it hasn’t reclaimed them since.

Much of the Obama coverage was orchestrated sycophancy. They glided past his pretensions — when did a presidential candidate before “address the world” from the Brandenberg Gate in Berlin? They ignored his arrogance — “You’re likable enough, Hillary.” And they averted their eyes from his every gaffe — such as the admission that he didn’t speak “Austrian.”

The media walked right past the decades-long association of Obama with the weird and racist pastor Jeremiah Wright. In the midst of the brief stormlet over the issue, one CNN host — inexplicably — decided that CNN was going to be a “Wright-free zone.” He could have hung out a sign: “No bad news about Obama here.”

The media trashed Hillary. They burned Republicans. They ransacked Sarah Palin and her family. But Obama, the cool, the detached, the oracular Obama — he strolled to the presidency.

Palin, in particular, stands out as Obama’s opposite in the media’s eyes. As much as they genuflected to the one, they felt the need to turn rottweiler toward the other. If Obama was sacred , classy, intellectual and cosmopolitan, why then Palin must be malevolent, trashy, dumb and pure backwoods-ignorant.

read more : http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/17/rex-murphy-the-medias-love-affair-with-a-disastrous-president/

Did they just argue that Obama got a pass to the presidency but Palin faced undue criticism?

Wait, Really?

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

I think Obama was elected largely because the American public thought he would pursue different goals and be successful at implementing them, yet they had only his (ahem) "appearance" and speeches to depend upon.

Let's be honest, the man had very little experience.

I spent October of 2008 going door to door in Ohio not because I thought he would make a good president, but because I thought Mc Cain and Palin would be far worse.

I continue to feel that way about the present field of Republican candidates, but must admit that they are far better than McCain and Palin. It is going to be an interesting race, and I suspect a vote for Obama in 2012 will be largely symbolic.

I won't fault Obama if he loses.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
ntfool
above average
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 483

C'mon AW, that article is nonsense. Well, not nonsense, there is definitely a large kernel of truth to it; the media absolutely had a love affair with the Obama election campaign.

My problem with the article is that the author claims that the "the establishment American media abandoned its critical faculties during the Obama campaign".

Wait, the media abandoned its critical faculties DURING the last election cycle? Not BEFORE? Really? Critical faculties were in effect during the whole 'weapons of mass destruction in Iraq' scenario? During the 'there is absolute proof of a connection between Iraq and Al Quaida' justification for invasion?

Suuure. The American mainstream media JUST lost their capacity for critical thinking that recently. Please, the same nonsense happened in the 50's, when there were very little "critical faculties" in effect in the media machine's portrayal of Senator McCarthy. Until an individiual, Edward R. Murrow, stepped up to the plate. This stuff has happened since the dawn of modern journalism, I'm sure.

If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

spurn Productions, Inc.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Boygabriel said:
The idea that we have technologies that are accurate enough to significantly reduce dead civilians while technically may be true, just feeds the lie that most Americans believe: our exploits minimize civilian deaths.

It's like calling new coal standards "clean coal".

It's marginally cleaner, but it is by no means clean.

The US armed forces take tremendous steps to minimize civilian deaths, but [perhaps because most people do not understand that the death of civilians is unavoidable in modern combat] they will never get credit for doing so.

That's a large part of the reason people in the military won't listen to anyone who says they are predominantly immoral people who do not go about their jobs in a way that causes the least harm to civilians.

By painting the military as "pro-war", the general public often fails to understand that just because 1000s of civilians were killed in a given conflict, the doesn't mean that tens of thousands could not have been.

People who believe that civilian deaths are always avoidable, or whom believe that their occurrence is always the result of disregard or carelessness, rarely take the time to get the other side of the story.

They rarely have an understanding of the military ethics and culture that the leaders of our armed forces strive to maintain.

Other than that, you are correct. The general public would be best off if accepted that (like coal), war will never be clean. We can either accept that number of civilians killed in wars will far exceed the number of soldiers, or we can stop finding reasons that are "good enough" to have a war.

Until we are able to implement the latter, it is time to look for strategies and technologies that can mitigate the former.

P.S. After we use up the US natural gas supply in 50 years or so years, Coal looks like it is the way to go. People really dislike nuclear. Wind, switchgrass and solar don't appear particularly viable.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

WN, I completely agree that most of the American public has no idea how much death, destruction and misery is caused by war.

If the American public saw photos of blown up Iraqis babies and American service folks missing limbs and struggling through life at Walter Reed, I have a feeling it would be a lot harder for those in power to keep rallying us to war.

Or at least, ignoring the wars they choose to fight.

Personally I feel very strongly about never misplacing my hatred of war into vitriol for service members.

That misguided lesson was learned when Viet Nam vets got back.

For me it's not a question of taking steps to mimimize civilian casualities, although I fully realize they are frequently in effect.

It's simply an impossible goal. War does not exist without masssive civilian death.

Therefore, I am strongly against war, especially as it tends to be practiced by this nation, or the dominant nations throughout the modern history of nation-states.

What's crazy to me is that after the war crimes enacted by Bush and Cheney, we reached a point in American history where the Armed Forces is frequently the group arguing restraint and less conflict, and criminals like Cheney and Bush are the ones that are commanding them to fight.

If you think back to the high Cold War era, everyone assumed it would be overzealous military leaders, a la Viet Nam. But the tables have completely turned.

It's actually not surprising in the least: the military would rather not be fighting wars and dying.

Whereas chickenhawk politicians like Neil Podhoretz, Paul Wolfowitz and Dough Feith can't get enough of fighting wars with other people's children.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Until we get rid of those politicians, most of the military and country is ok with drones.

According to the eloquent experts, "They suck, but they suck less than the alternatives"

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

This country is ok with a lot of terrible things.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

Living in it involves constantly choosing between the lesser of two evils.

...I read recently that the armed forces will soon get thousands more drones.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

Yes, the Obama administration is proving to be a huge fan of drones.

I've read reports that wedding parties on the Af-Pak border aren't as big of fans.

That's not confirmed though.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,079

The quote I learned was very succinct:

"Everyone tries to minimize civilian deaths, especially the civilians."

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago

RSS feed for this topic

Welcome! Please log in to post, or register a new account!

Brooklynian

Brooklynian » Forum » Brooklyn Politics »

So is the Nobel Peace Prize winner gonna start another war?

Brooklynian » Boards About Stuff! » Brooklyn Politics

Brooklinks

Members Online