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To be run by Tony Fisher, the guy who runs Bob and Betty's, and Pulp and Bean.
Soon there may be no need to cross EP to go to a bar NORTH of EP.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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Related, recent thread on the topic of "Franklin Ave South Of EP"
http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/bob-and-bettys-2
Newbies and long term residents get more choice in groceries, and a bar!
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
So excited!
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Thats cool... the Interlink place has got to be 10x the size of pulp and bean. However, i think being a coffee place / bar / beer distributer is maybe trying to be too many things at once. But given the lack of options for all off the above currently, I could be way wrong.
"The Fisher brothers are always working. After opening the Pulp & Bean in 2009 and Bob & Betty's in 2011 in their building on Franklin and Lincoln, they've turned their attention to the Avenue south of Eastern Parkway. Construction is already underway on their Pioneer Supermarket at the corner of Franklin and Union, which will open as a Bob and Betty's this summer. Now (as of Monday), they've announced that this market, too, will be flanked by a Pulp & Bean, which will occupy the current Interlink space. In addition to serving coffee, bagels, and everything else the current location offers, this edition will also offer draft beer, available in growlers to take home and pints to stay. They'll also beer garden out back, and their goal, they say, is to open by May of this year, in time for plenty of outdoor summer drinking.
It's a common observation that Franklin south of Eastern hasn't experience the same type of retail boom as the stretch between Eastern and Atlantic, despite its equal proximity to the parkway, Park, and subway. That's not to say there haven't been some new openings (Metro PCS, Fever Grass, Three Brothers Hardware, the now-defunct Roti 'N Dumplings) and renovations (the Associated looking all glassy and such), but one wonders whether the Fishers' efforts will be a tipping point for the commercial corridor from Eastern down to Crown. Thoughts?"
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I should add that with coffee and an outdoor space i'll be there every saturday morning to get a cup of joe and read the paper.
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dmiami said:
I should add that with coffee and an outdoor space i'll be there every saturday morning to get a cup of joe and read the paper.I think you will have lots of company.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
As you might expect, the realtors and developers have been on the scene for years.
http://myspacenyc.com/beautiful-three-bedroom-on-president-st/
Lots more change will come to the area this summer.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Has anyone heard more about this...? It sure doesn't look like a May opening is going to happen.
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I'll ask Tony when I see him next.
I haven't seen the CB8 list of businesses seeking an alc permit recently; this would be a key milestone.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Hey guys, longtime lurker, first time poster. Does anyone have any thoughts about the development of the new Nets stadium, Barclays Center? Do you think Crown Heights will feel some effects of it being built? The Atlantic Center subway stop IS only a few stops away.
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I should clarify that essentially my point is the 4 train runs to Atlantic Center, which also stops at Franklin Ave. Would something like this development start to show its effects on Franklin Ave as well
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Epicly-
Welcome! Is it ok if we split your topic into a new thread, that way we can continue to exclusivity salivate over the possibility of a new beer garden on this thread?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Epiclylaterd said:
I should clarify that essentially my point is the 4 train runs to Atlantic Center, which also stops at Franklin Ave. Would something like this development start to show its effects on Franklin Ave as wellNope. The spill over business and development of these types of things are ALWAYS overstated. One of the most successful recent sports complex builds is ATT Park in San Francisco. The businesses located within a short walk of the complex have done very well. Anything more than a few blocks or requiring a MUNI ride aren't doing as great.
Also, many studies have shown that most people come for events and games and leave. They generally do not have dinner or drinks in the areas surrounding sports complexes. It's why you generally don't see tons of thriving businesses near them. You'll have a handful and that's about it. I think we'll find that businesses as far east as Vanderbilt will see upticks, but anything beyond that is a big gamble.
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I agree with Ishtar. If you think about how people will come to the stadium, folks taking subway or LIRR will either eat at the stadium or any of the restaurants that are within 1-2 blocks. If you come off of the train at Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street, the odds that you'll walk all the way to Vanderbilt are pretty slim unless you're arriving more than 90 minutes before the game starts. Those taking the A,C, or G will probably look to eat on Fulton. Only folks coming from the east by bus or car are likely to stop further east to eat prior to the game. After the game, its highly unlikely that anyone other than folks who live near Franklin will stop there on their way home.
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I haven't seen anything happening with this... anyone know if they are opening next month?
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I talked with one of the senior employees at Bob and Betty's recently. He told me that he had been in to see the construction progress on the new beer garden as well as the renovation of the Pioneer Grocery.
Both are running a little behind schedule, but he assured me the beer garden would open this summer, "June if we are lucky".
The Pioneer will be finished sometime afterward.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
i am moving to franklin and carroll; it will be nice to have a place to stop for coffee in the am and beer in the pm.
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For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
My dog and I walked around the neighborhood today, and thought about the idea of it going upscale.
Admittedly, I am assuming my dog was thinking the same types of thoughts as me.
That said, this side of EP is much different than the other:
-Much of the local retail caters to the thousands of people who live in Ebbets Field, a large affordable housing complex.
-other than the triangle discussed in the about link, the area between Empire, Washington, EP and Bedford is largely devoid of homeowners. For example, there are mostly tenement buildings and subsidized high rises ....whereas the area on the Southside of EP that is East of Bedford has row houses and brownstones.
Likewise, the area north of EP has brownstones, row houses and (increasingly) modern condo buildings.
As a result, I'd be hesitant to open a business on Franklin south of EP, that aimed for wealthy customers. While the apartments may soon turnover and become split 3 ways among young college educated people paying $700 each, it may not change beyond this.
... The area may be unable to attract the older, graduate educated, home owning crowds that presently fill Barbichino and the Crown Inn.
If I were Tony Fisher, I would make sure to avoid believing the area presently has the customer base that Franklin Park catered to when it opened in 2008.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Well, I support them... i just hope it opens soon. It'd be a nice addition.
I'd be ok if So. Franklin didn't change as drastically as No. Franklin, with the likes of Barboncio etc. The change on No. Franklin has been really crazy over the last 12 months. Good, bad, or indifferent... it's been fast.
I agree with most if the previous post but, Why Not, you're dead wrong here: "While the apartments may soon turnover and become split 3 ways among young college educated people paying $700 each, it may not change beyond this."
Everything changes...
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With the addition of the new condos coming at Eastern/Franklin, It might be faster/easier to cross Eastern to do something rather than walk down the other direction. Maybe the new condos are more incentive for businesses to push south, assuming anyone can afford them. Not to mention, im sure month by month rents on North Franklin are probably getting more and more expensive. It should be interesting to see how this works considering not many from North Franklin will cross to visit those two businesses since they're already on the north side.
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Yes, everything does change.
....but I'm not sure it will change fast enough or to the degree that it will support an upscale Bob and Betty's II, ala 2011+. Or, even a beer garden like Franklin Park, ala 2008+.
If I were Tony, I'd keep my fancy cheeses and organic veggies on the Northside of EP, and consider a tenant for Pioneer ....such as a drug store.
Instead of a beer garden that tries to compete with the established Franklin Park, I'd think about something lower key, and more likely to be supported (at least in part) by the residents of Ebbets Field.
Perhaps a self serve, by the pound restaurant (like those in midtown that cater to office workers seeking lunch), but catering to people too busy to cook and too broke for table service.
We all seem to agree that there is unmet demand south of EP, and -thus- good money to be made. I'm just a little more cautious about which demographics it is going to made from, and unwilling to lose money while I wait for a demographic that I perceive as still too small.
To put it a different way, I believe supply should arrive at almost the exact time as demand, and don't want Tony to lose money by over estimating the area's 3 yr potential. If the area becomes wealthier than my predictions, he can adapt again.....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I wouldn't expect residents from Ebbets to travel that far north for groceries or any other amenities. They have the Associated, which has improved drastically over the years and is now at the point where I do majority of my grocery shopping there. They also have Western Beef and tons of food options without having to come up Franklin unless it's to get on the subway. There is also Rite Aide, though it's terrible, it still meets all the basic needs. Besides, it's much easier for them to travel to PLG for anything they need when you consider it's two blocks away.
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Ishtar, I fear you are right.
So, I fear that whatever Tony constructs will be geographically and economically limited to serving the area loosely defined by Carrol, Classon, EP and Bedford.
As stated above, over the course of the next few years, I see that area being overtaken by people with new bachelors degrees, but not much more.
...his best hope for high earners/spenders may come as the rent stabilized buildings along EP gradually go market rate.
Our tenant laws make it very difficult to evict people in mass to make them condos, and there are no vacant lots in the zone I define that I know of that have not already been purchased by Medgar Evers.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I'm pretty sure the Pulp and Bean is not trying to compete with Franklin Park. It sounds to me (based on the ilovefranklin ave post) that it's primarily a cafe, that also sells beer. In fact they said they will sell them in growlers which i think would make it the only place in Crown Heights with that offering.
I have no idea how well the grocery will do... i think it'll be significantly larger than the other bob and bettys so i could see people shopping there instead of the other bob and bettys, since the selection should be greater. The associated on Franklin is actually pretty nice (comparable to Compare, but much much smaller) so competition may be stiff!
Anyway, in terms of a good cup of coffee, there isn't anything on the south side of eastern until you get to the old dunebuggys. I can't imagine pulp and bean won't be successful.
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Yes, Growlers could be a hit.
The beer distributor on Washington (and approximately Dean) carried them before they closed, and I suspect that the same location will carry them again when it is scheduled to reopen this summer.
Although its not sexy, I wonder if there is a market for a mega size Laundrymatt... He could simply lease it to a laundry chain.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
There is another built-in market in that area, catering to all the commuter students from Medgar Evers College. The school has a lot of older folks who work and then attend school so a place for them to hang out while on a break between classes, or for couple of hours after class is over might just take off.
But based on the Growlers discussion, that's probably not the demo Tony is going for.
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having lived on the south side of EP for 11 years-- the Pioneer was never hurting for business. Nor has the Associated, either before or after getting all glassy. It's NYC-- walking more than 3 blocks w/ groceries sucks, so these 2 make sense, as much as the awful Key Food and the whatever other grocery (CSA?) on Washington do. I don't doubt that both will do well. The Associated's already jumped into fancier cheese and has a ton of veggie and vegan options; if B&B2.0 does that with beer, more higher-end bougie foods, and a salad bar (as tony's said), they'll both do great.
While 5 years ago, Franklin south of EP was very much a solid working-class carribean neighborhood, it's definitely one in transition now; i think the tons of vacant storefronts show that. No one quite knows what this stretch of Franklin will support right now.
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I talked to Tony for a while yesterday. He said he most likely won't be reopening the Associated as a grocery store again - the beer garden and pulp & bean are in the works still, but he is thinking of renting out the space to Medgar Evers college.
Also, he mentioned making bagels in house - he is going though too many bagels to keep buying them.
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While I can completely get behind that, I find that to be a strange statement from a business planning sense. Surely it costs less the more bagels you buy.
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Given the fiscal constraints on CUNY schools, I'd be surprised if Medgar Evers had the ability to pay much.
It seems to me, the only time CUNY schools are able to rent space from the private market is when they receive additional private or foundation funding, and these awards are increasingly going to the ME's competition: private universities and first tier State and City colleges.
Although Pioneer was busy, Tony reportedly closed it because it was not profitable (a big distinction).
Perhaps a non-profit could afford it. Maybe a HMO that serves the large number of city workers in the area that have good health insurance? A big day care?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Although the times have changed, the area once brewed a lot of beer. Article in Brownstoner about local defunct breweries:
http://www.brownstoner.com/blog/2012/07/walkabout-crown-heights-consumers-park-brewery/?stream=true
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
What's up with this....are we still getting some coffee and beer in the old interlink place? Anyone know?
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When I last saw Tony, he stated the idea/project is on indefinite hold.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I believe that there is a family medical crisis they're going through, and all Bob & Betty's expansion, new openings, etc. have been put on hold for the time being.
If you're happy, you're not paying attention.
spurn Productions, Inc. -
Yes.
We should also keep in mind that running a bar/beer garden is a full time job. He should not open it until he has all of the pieces (including security) in place.
Recent incident at Franklin Park:
patch » Thief Maces Bar Bouncer While Stealing Bags
A 36-year-old man was charged with trying to steal two bags from Franklin Park and then spraying mace at the bouncer who stopped him.
The man grabbed the bags at about 12:15 a.m. on June 27 at the bar, at 618 St. Johns Place at Franklin Avenue. When the bouncer stopped him the man threatened to spray him with mace if he called 911. It’s not clear what the bouncer did next, but the thief then threatened to kill the bouncer and sprayed the mace. In the bags were $9,480 worth of goods including a MacBook Air laptop and cash, according to a police report.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Horrible that those bags got lifted, but guys, can you stop bringing your MacBook airs to bars and leaving them unattended?
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It seems like something is soon to open in this spot. I've noticed work going on for awhile. The gates are up occasionally and the inside seems almost finished to me. No idea if it's still supposed to be a cafe/beer garden.
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The folks at the church made it clear they will object to any bar type biz next door to them. Pulpandbean is still going in, along with a law office (the two smaller store fronts).
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Pulpandbean-
I like the Divide and Conquer approach. Good luck!
whynot_31 said:
Yes, everything does change.....but I'm not sure it will change fast enough or to the degree that it will support an upscale Bob and Betty's II, ala 2011+. Or, even a beer garden like Franklin Park, ala 2008+.
If I were Tony, I'd keep my fancy cheeses and organic veggies on the Northside of EP, and consider a tenant for Pioneer ....such as a drug store.
Instead of a beer garden that tries to compete with the established Franklin Park, I'd think about something lower key, and more likely to be supported (at least in part) by the residents of Ebbets Field.
Perhaps a self serve, by the pound restaurant (like those in midtown that cater to office workers seeking lunch), but catering to people too busy to cook and too broke for table service.
We all seem to agree that there is unmet demand south of EP, and -thus- good money to be made. I'm just a little more cautious about which demographics it is going to made from, and unwilling to lose money while I wait for a demographic that I perceive as still too small.
To put it a different way, I believe supply should arrive at almost the exact time as demand, and don't want Tony to lose money by over estimating the area's 3 yr potential. If the area becomes wealthier than my predictions, he can adapt again.....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
glass windows and door up at the former entrance to pioneer-- lookin good!
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While the part of the building with street frontage has been partitioned into strore fronts, much of the building will remain unused for the indefinate future.
I'm sure it will be used to store things, but that doesn't really count in my mind....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
A building is for sale at Bedford and Union, and (based on the rents being collected) the area is attracting higher income residents:
http://www.terracrg.com/setups/1610_Bedford_Avenue.pdf
Seems like a good investment.
P.S. Based on the low rents for some of the rent stabilized units, some residents have living in that building a really long time.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Wow, someone's renting for $119/mo.
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FYI, just ordered fixtures for the cafe. Look for the opening soon. I am also looking employ some Brooklyn talent. If any one is interested please stop by Bob & Betty's a
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pulpandbean said:
FYI, just ordered fixtures for the cafe. Look for the opening soon. I am also looking employ some Brooklyn talent. If any one is interested please stop by Bob & Betty's aCongratulations Tony!
If you're happy, you're not paying attention.
spurn Productions, Inc. -
I talked with Tony today. He stated that his new cafe will offer a lot more baked goods than your average coffee shop.
From my conversation, it seems like it will become something like Joyce Bakeshop on Vanderbilt. http://www.joycebakeshop.com/
...depending upon how this entity does, he will decide his next steps.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
So the church killed the beer garden right?
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The beer garden may come eventually, but the time and money are not right.
...and a coffee combo bakeshop will pay some rent for now.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Foo! I was really hopping for one.
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