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Why not I notice u just can't even bear to comment on how mr witherwax was clueless in this meeting not viewing the signatures etc all I hear is silence like we all know blacks get a different kind of justice not only in the community board but in the judicial system.
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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I wasn't at the meeting.
...The whole board votes on this next, right?
In order to stop car parking spots being converted into bike corrals, you'd really need to convince the Board or the DOT that this policy constitutes a Disparate Impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact
This seem to me that it would be a much more successful than focusing on whether a proportional amount of every race/hue/religion/disability status/income etc was involved in getting the corral approved.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Chloeroyale, if disabled parking is what youre concerned about, follow Little Zelda's model and present it before the community board. Instead of bashing a business that went through the proper channels, and twice was approved, you should try doing the same. You may not like the bike corrals, but guess what, they're here to stay. How this becomes an issue of race is beyond me. The only reason I continue to read your off-kilter, slightly deranged posts is out of pure entertainment only. And no I'm not white so don't try to play that card either.
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Why not I don't know all I know is the minority and the disabled community are disenfranchised in crown height of course it's tied in to gentrification the 300 plus signatures that i obtained without even going four blocks are being made aware that their signature their voice does not count and really they need to shut up and pay their taxes. Trust me they did not like this cb8 outcome they are choking right about now and they will be in full cardiac arrest soon give it time.
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Epicly-
I don't believe the CB has the ability to recommend a disabled spot in the same way it can a bike corral.Their ability to recommend a bike corral is new.
DMV » Parking Spaces, New York City
New York City does not set aside reserved spaces on its streets for persons with disabilities. Reserved parking spaces are only available off-street, in parking lots for shopping centers/malls, office/apartment buildings and college campuses. You can use the vehicle plates for disabled persons or a state permit for disabled persons to park in reserved spaces in those off-street lots.
However, the NYC Department of Transportation issues a City permit (a rectangular dashboard permit) that allows persons with severe disabilities to park at most curbsides on NYC streets. City permits are issued to people with a permanent disability that so severely affects their ability to walk that they require the use of a private automobile. The New York City parking permit is not valid outside of NYC. For more information or to obtain an application for a NYC permit, call (718) 433-3100 or visit the NYC Department of Transportation's web site .
http://www.dmv.ny.gov/broch/c34.htm
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
To my knowledge, nothing granted by petition from a governmental agency (such as DOT, DOH, etc) or quasi governmental agency (such as a community board) requires that the petitioner demonstrate that a proportional sample of the population was polled.
Nor, are the people behind such petitions required to keep track of those who are opposed to whatever they are requesting.
Basically, once you get the required number of signatures, you get to go before the government agency, which then decides whether it is a good idea.
....I sincerely hope that the board would stop deciding it was a "good idea" if the number (ratio?) of bike spots to parking spots no longer served the "public good".
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Epiclylated good that u are black /aapi and I'm sure the longer u live u will eventually experience what ur mother and father went through and u will too and I'm sure u have felt it already . Keep lying to yourself it may just work for u . And since u where not at the meeting and did not see the dynamics then u are getting it second hand . If u are truly a minority hopefully u will have a job on Monday.
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Chloe-
To convince me that the loss of a car parking spot has a disparate impact against people who are black, you would have to show that black people own cars at a greater rate than whites on our little section of Franklin Avenue.Can you?
Then, you would have to convince the board that this loss of a parking spot presented a greater "loss" to the community than the "good" that the petitioners claim it brings.
...Frankly, your Disability argument seems more credible.
However, I am not on the little Transportation Committee or the "big" CB 8 full board.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Chloe, I never said that I was black, I only said I wasn't white dude.
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Epicly-
I don't think it matters what your hue is. The board should decide based on the issues I describe above, not on silly things like hue, or imagined things like race.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Why not u are not getting what I'm trying to say the parking spot that the bike corral is in has an impact on the disabled my husband came to the meeting her revealed his diagnosis he told them how difficult it was for him to carry out his activities of daily living and how much harder it is now since the bike corral. The race issue comes in when little zelda petitioned there customer base leaving out a big segment of the populus for an item that would impact the community which includes a large racially diverse community. On thing I thank u for is educating the public on the lack of disabled spots for people like my husband dot's motto is bikes before the sick and elderly!
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Whynot, I agree with all of what you've said, I don't think it matters. But I've noticed, as I'm sure others have, that Chloe makes sweeping generalizations which have made his posts both irritating and entertaining at the same time. In any case, despite my hue, I am glad that the corral is in place and will continue to be there having twice been approved.
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their* not his
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Epic if u really think this is over I have a bridge to sell u.
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Epic-
Yes, I think Chloe does herself and her cause a disservice by focusing on race.I think if she carefully thought thru the issues, she would realize that most petitions are biased in favor of something (race, religion, hue, disability status, income, etc), and the onus is on the CB to ensure that they carefully consider such requests.
So far, the advocates for the disabled have only been able to achieve the successes I quote above. Some advocates argue that these policies are more generous than communities outside of NYC, because they allow more spots for persons with disabilities, closer to where they want to shop THAN a system in which spot reserved for persons with disabilities was designated.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Epic if my post are so irritating don't read them. And as usual would u make that statement in front of me and my husband I really really doubt it quick fingers u never know I may just know who u are its a small world
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Chloe-
Have you thought about engaging the various agencies which represent persons with disabilities in NYC to help you have the DOT grant reserved on streets spots to persons with mobility conditions?This agency likely has an opinion of whether what you are suggesting is feasible in the present political and fiscal climate: http://www.bcid.org/
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I can see why not your uncomfortable with the issues of race and your blogg does not have a large black clientele .
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While this message board is open to everyone with free time and a internet connected computer, I suspect you are right: The members of this blog do not proportionately represent NYC on ANY strata; It seems to be especially popular among some groups more than others.
In my opinion, no one on this board is able to speak for anyone but themselves.
P.S. United Spinal represents persons with mobility conditions; they also lobby DOT and other entities for greater access to public facilities. http://www.unitedspinal.org/
...they are quite good at suing MTA to force them to make more of their stations ADA compliant.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
The current political structure is pro bicycles not pro disabilities please remember that the cabs are still ate not fully wheelchair accessible
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Correct!
While the T&LC has allegedly required companies to provide transportation PWDs who use wheelchairs, it has (in my opinion) done very little to actually enforce the regulations.
Hence, the regulations seem to "exist only on paper", not in the real world. Here's a summary of the regs:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/html/passenger/wheelchair_access.shtml
Here's the folks lobbying to get the regs actually implemented:
http://www.taxisforall.com/For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
And your bloggers are Also anti people with disabilities I will be reading these comment to some
of the individuals that signed the petition I think it will be very revealing to tell them u never know they may just know some of the screen names . -
Which comments do you think have been anti people with disabilities?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Why not check your comment on on page one no ones rights are being infringed on and of course Eastbloc who said what makes disabled people more important than people with bicycles I did not review the rest of the pages.
With Eastbloc common sense is not common -
Chloe-
NYC DOT has decided that PWDs can't have designated spots on the street, therefore it doesn't seem to me that any "right" is being infringed by a spot being designated for bikes. The spot that has been given to the bikes was not a "disabled person's", it was for everyone who drove a car.Eastbloc gets to defend his own comments, if he wishes to.
From my reading of his comment, Eastbloc seems to believe that you are stating that PWDs have a greater right to park in that spot than 8 bicyclists.
At the moment, you have not convinced CB8 or DOT that they are discriminating against PWDs.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Of course u would feel that way and of course dot cb8 and people like U would never have the insight to think that wait if we are giving accommodations to the bicyclist then what about the weak and sick of our community shouldn't there be something for them also I guess the ans is no!!!!!
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No spots for the disabled on the street u disabled should not even go outside really let the dr make house visits on his bicycle or car
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Chloe, I like your not-so-thinly veiled threats against the members of the board in real life.
Stay classy.
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Chloe-
At present, it seems that CB8 couldn't give a PWD a reserved spot even if wanted to, so I can certainly see how them being able to give a spot to a bunch of able-bodied bikers (and then doing so) is a insulting.But are the bikers a legitimate focus of your concern?
Even if you were to get that spot back for the driving public, it doesn't help you (or your cause) very much.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Why not the disabled was not being even considered by dot they don't exist they feel the permit is enough
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If we get the spot back his chance of getting a spot increases some because the barrier is removed and cars come and go the bike corral is a permanent fixture
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Chloe as I'm sure you are aware, Franklin Ave is named after Benjamin Franklin, but did you know that during the early part of his life he was a slave owner and even advertised rewards for runaway slaves in his newspaper, the Pennsylvania Gazette? It was not until his later years that he became an abolitionist and founded an anti-slavery society. People change for the better or worse, and being a 5th generation native new yorker I can attest that neighborhoods also change for better or worse. You can fight the best fight fairly or not, but change whether you view it for the better or worse, is inevitable.
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Eastbloc what veil threats are u talking about please explain brightness!!
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Urban I have no problem with change but when people are disenfranchised I have a problem With that.
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Is the parking the way it is now on Franklin ave a reasonable accommodation for the disabled?
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Why not I'm sure your membership will say sure it is it perfect for them lets not hold on to the crutch that its dot fault or cb8 fault for a minute let go of those crutches just for one minute
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Is the parking the way it is now on Franklin ave a reasonable accommodation for the disabled?
In my opinion it is not. As stated above, my opinion is worth very little. You likely need a court to rule that the DOT must provide on street reserved parking. If you like, I can put you in touch with people at United Spinal. I've had a relationship with that organization from just after they split with Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association.
Why not I'm sure your membership will say sure it is it perfect for them lets not hold on to the crutch that its dot fault or cb8 fault for a minute let go of those crutches just for one minute
In terms of "fault" I would go higher than those entities. The ADA itself is often toothless, and NYC has been in violation when comes to things as concrete as voting rights. Here's a bunch of reports on Poll Site Accessibility :
http://www.cidny.org/poll-site-accessibility.php
----> I'll save you the reading and state what you probably already know: It is a pretty sad state of affairs.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Stop using reason as a crutch, whynot. Let go of those crutches for one minute.
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Eastbloc-
I just want her to use her limited resources well, and direct them at the right entities. Currently, I am afraid she is making enemies out of what could be allies.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I also tagged along to the meeting (would love to hear some more perspectives on the proceedings from those who were there), and a few other things were said/resolved that I think bear repeating.
In reaffirming their original position (support for the bike corral), the board also asked the DOT to look into three additional issues: 1) turning the old parking meters on Franklin between St. Johns and Eastern Parkway bike racks (thereby adding more bike parking), 2) asking the DOT to report back to them in the spring on their assessment of the usage and success of the corral, and 3) adding parking meters/muni meters to Franklin north of St. Johns (to Park or Prospect - the northern boundary was not confirmed). This last recommendation, if implemented, would be particularly advantageous for both the disabled (who are permitted to park, with placards, in metered spots without paying or observing time limits: http://www.nyc.gov/html/mopd/html/resources/trans_parking.shtml) and the merchants and churches who rely on car traffic (as turnover at parking spaces would increase, making it easier for folks driving in to find parking along the retail strip). The transportation committee can only make recommendations, but the DOT agreed to look into these matters.
While I hear the arguments choleroyale and those at the meeting make with respect to the disabled, much of the meeting centered on the question of PROCESS. Those petitioning for the removal of the corral were (correct me if I'm wrong) most upset with the fact that they felt they had not been consulted, and thus felt that their voices had been deemed unimportant by those in power (or those with the wealth, time, and privilege to know how to speak to power - in this case, a successful new business). I understand why this frustrated people at the meeting, too, as the chair (for reasons understandable from his position) was insistent that the process did not keep the committee from considering all relevant issues (including the disabled and churchgoers) in their original deliberations.
The process (for better or worse) is what it is - everything that happened was perfectly legal and perfectly by-the-books, though that doesn't make people happy - but I can't help wondering whether the package offered at the second meeting - a bike corral, new meters (which would improve car access for churches and the disabled), new sidewalk bike parking, and a report from the DOT on the success of the corral - could have been much less polarizing if it had been more fully explained and understood the first time around. I'm not blaming anyone, just noting that it seems like there may have been room for compromise.
Is there still room? Chloeroyale, would you be interested in joining with others to push for meters along Franklin and for holding the DOT to task to report on the success of the corral in a few months' time? The Crow Hill Community Association also announced at the meeting that they want to offer their own meeting as a place for dialogue on this issue - would such dialogue, especially if it worked toward these goals, help improve the problem of process (which seems so central)?
I understand why this corral has become such a flashpoint - it's a malleable symbol for everything from environmentalism to gentrification. What I'm wondering is whether there's a way to fit it into a more comprehensive effort to improve the streetscape for everyone on Franklin (bikers, the disabled, drivers, and everyone else) going forward.
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^ seems like a reasonable offer ^
BTW, if folks are interested, DOT has links to reports (brochures? propaganda?) that describe each of the bike corrals in operation. It looks like another one (for a grand total of 9) has been announced since The Patch article was published:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bicycleparking.shtml
Sadly, the report for the Little Zelda one isn't working for me, but the others are.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
At the meeting, the DOT said that they are seeing "more bikes than expected" at the corral (given that it's the dead of winter, hardly prime bike-riding season) and that the bikes they are seeing there turn over twice as fast as cars parked along the street (which, in theory, means more customers coming and going for local merchants).
One interesting question asked by a committee member about other bike corrals (just in Brooklyn, as it was phrased) was about which businesses partner with the DOT on corrals. In Park Slope and Williamsburg, they're coffee shop/cafes, and on Smith Street, it's a deli/bodega. The gist of the question seemed to be "which businesses see these corrals as beneficial," but they didn't get that much further into it.
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I love Franklin Ave we can talk about it but right now he cant access that area easily and explained why in the meeting and he left that meeting feeling like all u able bodied people who ride your bikes every where could not relate to a old man with end of life issues
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It does seem logical that only certain businesses are going to be interested in the corrals.
For example, I doubt a fancy restaurant would see a corral as beneficial because "dressing up and going out to eat" doesn't always match with riding a bike.
Likewise, I would imagine that businesses who tend to serve people who are young and healthy (many bars, coffee shops, etc) would tend to want a corral because thats exactly who tends to ride bikes.
Conversely, it is sort of hard to imagine a business that serves a customer base that is disproportionately older or disabled wanting one. I don't expect to see one requested by the proprietors of a Diabetes Clinic in the near future....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Definitely not the diabetic eye center customer base is blind and missing one or two legs
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The diabetic centers are usually able to get around the "no street spots will be reserved for PWDs" rule, by instead requesting Loading and Unloading Zones. Access-a-ride, and the Ambulettes than use these spots.
...You might be able to get a business on Franklin Ave to successfully request such a zone. In my experience, the parking agents are ok with a person with a disabled permit parking in them.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Loading and unloading disabled people can park authorized cars only they can park no parking anytime they can park no standing any time they cannot park
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The new generation on Franklin ave I would never approach to do that my husband will just go there less thats all he says its easier for him to do it that way for now his words not mine
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I wish you both the best.
...you certainly won't be the first people (disabled or not) to drive to less populated areas to obtain parking, and spend your money.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Chloe:
Sadly we both live on the same planet, the only planet we have or likely will have for the foreseeable future.
That being the case, it would be best if we all could just get along. (as per Rodney King).
Before we continue beating each other over the head about one parking space, it might be helpful to understand the bigger picture here.
The reason I believe that bikes are becoming more popular throughout the US, not just Crown Heights or Brooklyn, is that people realize that cars are not sustainable. Sadly America relies heavily on fossil fuels for transportation. We are now entering an era of "extreme energy" where the remaining fossil fuels can only be obtained through extreme measures, such as hydrofracking, tar sands mining, deep sea drilling or drilling in virgin rain forests. The costs of obtaining these fuels are very high, and these costs are being passed on through to the consumer.
The impact of these costs will fall hardest on the poor, who are often people of color. So race is definitely a consideration in this discussion and people of color have an interest in developing a green economy.
I think it's not a coincidence that our first black president is making this green economy a priority for his second term.
So let's look beyond turf fighting to see what's best for Crown Heights, and especially people of color. Bikes which are more affordable, more sustainable and improve the health of the user, unlike cars which are unaffordable, unsustainable and a major contributor to our obesity crisis, should be the first choice for transportation in congested areas like Franklin Avenue. For those unable to ride bikes, such as the disabled, I've noticed that many are making use of electric scooters. Personally I'm always a little anxious when I see handicapped plates because I'm concerned that driver might be on medications or might have some other impairment. Certainly operating an electric scooter on a sidewalk is a lot safer for all parties concerned if the operator is in any impaired.
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