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So there is always the debate of the Crown Heights / Prospect Heights border. Many people have suggested having a "new" neighborhood designation for what is Crown Heights North/West. Crow Hill is one name that gets used occasionally. On Brownstoner they placed the Jewish Hospital in the neighborhood of "Crow Hill". http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2010/09/building_of_the_132.php Interesting
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Gentry Mound?
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Crow Hill was the original name of Crown Heights.Reach for the Stars, saying I am and I am going to be.
Keep living and keep loving,
Anthony -
Yep, that's my understanding. Any insight on whether or not that name is as result of the 'crows' which lived here, or some other reason?
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i've heard that MHA, but i've also heard that there was a ...tannery? slaughterhouse? something like that ...that attracted actual crows. i have no way of knowing, but my guess is that the name started with actual crows and then was perhaps applied to the inhabitants. but was the area even black then, or jewish (or something else)? was "crow" a common slur? (if not, then 10 points to my version -- i would think if the name was meant to describe the inhabitants, particularly if unkindly, it might well be less poetic.)Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit
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There was a thread about a year ago (?) on the subject. I seem to recall people actually dug up some historical texts and posted them. Maybe someone is curious enough to search for that post..(\__/)
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correct me if I'm wrong but I think it referred to the penitentiary that was there. Buffs? Crow hill society will know.
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I mean, I am a member of the Crow HIll Community Association -- I just found it interesting that it was being referred to as a neighborhood -- usually it's just Crown Heights and the CHCA is just the name of the association on its own.
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Check out the article below, from the Eagle in 1888. I'd guess it's pretty accurate, although even then there seems to have been some question on the specific location. Crow Hill has a nice ring to it but why not start using "Malboneville" as well? http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1888/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01005&ViewMode=GIF&GZ=T
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Backinbrooklyn » Check out the article below, from the Eagle in 1888. I'd guess it's pretty accurate, although even then there seems to have been some question on the specific location. Crow Hill has a nice ring to it but why not start using "Malboneville" as well? http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1888/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01005&ViewMode=GIF&GZ=T
I like it. It seems that Crow Hill is certainly past Bedford on this part of Crown Heights -- and so Malboneville is much more accurate. I feel like this article once again proves that this "argument" about neighborhood boundaries is so stupid . They are constantly changing and moving and being renamed. -
xlizellx » [ I feel like this article once again proves that this "argument" about neighborhood boundaries is so stupid . They are constantly changing and moving and being renamed.
Ah.., but the true Question is Why? Why are neighborhood boundaries constantly changing and moving and being renamed? Who controls or what are the controlling factors of this change? And most importantly, who benefits the most from this change of neighborhood boundaries?snowboarding, photography, films, art, counter culture, alternative -
Whitefolks control; capitalism is the controlling factor of this change; whitefolks benefit.
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MHA » Yep, that's my understanding. Any insight on whether or not that name is as result of the 'crows' which lived here, or some other reason?
I have no clue but reading the article that was posted it appears it could have been several reasons but most likely it was the crows.Reach for the Stars, saying I am and I am going to be.
Keep living and keep loving,
Anthony -
Backinbrooklyn » Check out the article below, from the Eagle in 1888. I'd guess it's pretty accurate, although even then there seems to have been some question on the specific location. Crow Hill has a nice ring to it but why not start using "Malboneville" as well? http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=BEagle&BaseHref=BEG/1888/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01005&ViewMode=GIF&GZ=T
Malboneville appears to be a vanity name for an area where someone brought property. Since during that time, Brooklyn was separated into different villages which may have had their own rules and municipal structure, I think that name is just something for the history books and should not be utilized as an example of changing boundaries within the borough of Brooklyn. I know that there have been numerous debates about the ending of Crown Heights and beginning of Prospect Heights but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights. Same thing goes for Bed-Stuy | Clinton Hill. Clinton Hill is more desirable so the boundaries tend to fluctuate depending on the apartment advertisement. Even though it is not Brooklyn, I found it funny when a friend of mine mentioned that a teacher she was working with stated they lived in SpaHa. I guess someone figured if you have SoHo and NoHo you might as well have SpaHa since for those that don't know, the name would not have the same connotations as someone saying they live in Spanish Harlem.Reach for the Stars, saying I am and I am going to be.
Keep living and keep loving,
Anthony -
We recently discussed the origin of the Crow Hill name here: http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56836&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 Despite lots of googling, and even finding a book that attempted to address the question, it seemed to end up as a tie. Very disappointing for those us who like clear outcomes. Whynot's summary for those too lazy to click: * Some evidence points to the name being derived from a derisive term for blacks, "crows". * Some evidence points to the name being derived from large black birds that lived on a hill, "crows" * Some evidence points to the name being derived from old prison on the site, and points out that the modern term "jail birds" = "people in prison" and the birds in jail were often "crows".For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Lost in the fog of history? So be it, and just as well. Let Crow Hill's name rest in obscurity. Regarding SBQ's observation that neighborhood name change is driven soley by evil real estate interests. let me point out that evil realtors are just the front men and women for homeowners, who pray almost daily that their property values have increased. Another contributing factor are those renters who engage in neighborhood puffery for reasons of vanity, as in "I live in Prospect Heights" when she/he in fact lives on Rogers and Park Place. When challenged, the tenant says "hey, that's what the real estate said". Like the deriviation of the name Crow Hill, n'hood name change has many causes and many culprits.
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Capt- "Solely driven by evil real estate interests"? She said nothing of the sort:
SnowboardQueen » [quote="xlizellx"][ I feel like this article once again proves that this "argument" about neighborhood boundaries is so stupid . They are constantly changing and moving and being renamed.
Ah.., but the true Question is Why? Why are neighborhood boundaries constantly changing and moving and being renamed? Who controls or what are the controlling factors of this change? And most importantly, who benefits the most from this change of neighborhood boundaries?[/quote] This is an instance of Capt Planet answering the SnowboardQueen's questions with "evil real estate interests", then attributing his answer to the person who asked the question. This is very strange. Why would Capt do this to himself and his profession? I find it odd that Capt. seems to automatically assume that people will give real estate agents all of the blame/credit for a neighborhood's expansion or name change. He's right, Real Estate agents are simply playing a forward role in the functioning of the capitalist market. As a result, the whole idea of a real estate professional engaging in deceptive or dishonest practices (like leading a potential buyer to believe that a listing in is one neighborhood when it is really in another) is complete baloney. Real estate agents are, and should be, completely free to do whatever they, and the customer believes will get the lease (or contract) signed. P.S. Capt, here's a lead on a listing: A guy named Steve believes Prospect Heights now goes out to Nostrand! http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1944421371.htmlFor better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
whynot_31 » A guy named Steve believes Prospect Heights now goes out to Nostrand! http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1944421371.html
I love how he lies and says "2 blocks to 2/3/4/5 trains." Uh dude, you can only get the 3 train at Nostrand (and the 4 during late nights or when the 3 isn't running). -
The worst Prospect Heights mislabeling I've seen is this one: http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1940319764.html The apartment is on St Johns between Kingston and Albany Ave
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Carnivore » [quote="whynot_31"]A guy named Steve believes Prospect Heights now goes out to Nostrand! http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1944421371.html
I love how he lies and says "2 blocks to 2/3/4/5 trains." Uh dude, you can only get the 3 train at Nostrand (and the 4 during late nights or when the 3 isn't running).[/quote] As per Capt, I now believe that Real Estate professionals do not lie. ...they are the front men and women, and bear no responsiblity for correcting either the landlord or the renter. They are simply one of many factors that influence a neighborhood's changing boundaries and name.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Mougar » The worst Prospect Heights mislabeling I've seen is this one: http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1940319764.html The apartment is on St Johns between Kingston and Albany Ave
Again, what is this about "worst"? The neighborhood boundaries are flexible. Stop being judgemental. ....stop making these people out to be "evil".For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
When I first was moving to Brooklyn, I wanted either north Park Slope or Prospect Heights. I talked to some Real Estate agents and they said to try just over the Washington border because it was in my budget. They clearly said that the Prospect Heights border was Washington but that LAND LORDS were listing out to Bedford as in Prospect Heights. I just find the fact that some people say that because the area between Nostrand and Washington has changed recently and maybe there should be a new name to differentiate it is racist or blasphemy, etc. My wondering is do people who live in the East Village (Which used to just be part of the Lower East Side but in the 60s was called it's own neighborhood because the people living there and the vibe changed and so different from the rest of the LES) get up in arms that within that larger neighborhood there is also The Bowery and Alphabet City within the East Village. If someone lived at Avenue B and 9th street, they could say either East Village or Alphabet City. Why can't Washington be the border of Crown Heights and Prospect Heights AND a certain part within Crown Heights also be something else. I keep hearing people say "people want a new name so that their friends visit, they're not lumped with the crime from the eastern border of Crown Heights, etc." and in no way is THAT why I sometimes think there should be another name. I tell people I live in Crown Heights and either they don't care because if I live there it can't be as dangerous as the papers sometimes make it sound or they say something and I can refute what they say with additional anecdotes about my actual neighborhood. I would like a smaller neighborhood name WITHIN crown heights because I think that it helps build an actual more tight-knit community. Crown Heights is HUGE. By having the Crow Hill Community Association things like the mural project, the garden, etc. etc. have come about. If we had smaller communities created within the larger Crown Heights I think that our community as a whole would feel closer and be more productive (For lack of a better word).
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I completely agree. I just think it is important to continue to point out that the Crow Hill is a subset of the neighborhood of Crown Heights. Crown Heights is a perfectly good name. I like Crown Heights, and think that it should always be referenced by the people living there. As you mention, the more that people living in Crown Heights point out to outsiders that THEY live in Crown Heights, the more accurate it's reputation will become. Crown Heights is quite large and has several small neighborhoods, and the more people learn about them, the more that they will realize it is not easily stereotyped as "gentrified", "crime ridden", "orthodox" or what have you..... "I live in the Crow Hill section of Crown Heights" "I live in the Brower Park section of Crown Heights"For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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whynot_31 » "I live in the Crow Hill section of Crown Heights" "I live in the Brower Park section of Crown Heights"
exactly. -
Note, "I live in the Prospect Heights section of Crown Heights" was not mentioned as being an option. Prospect Heights is a subset of th boro of Brooklyn. Crown Heights is a subset of the boro of Brooklyn Crow Hill is a mico sets, Crown Heights a sub set, etc. Skipping sets is not permitted.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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My main complaint is that it makes it a pain in the ass to search craigslist for apartments that are in a particular area.
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Mougar » My main complaint is that it makes it a pain in the ass to search craigslist for apartments that are in a particular area.
Well, that stems from real estate agents and property owners trying to confuse people. ....not there is anything wrong with that.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
[quote="Backinbrooklyn"]but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights. quote] Sorry, here's the quote I had meant to reference. My apologies to SBQ
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drkman » [quote="Backinbrooklyn"]but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights.
Sorry, here's the quote I had meant to reference. My apologies to SBQ[/quote] Landlords would be included in "real estate interests," no? As far as residents who for some reason find it inflates their sense of self-worth to claim to live in a neighborhood other than the one they live in, I'm not sure how to characterize that one, but I think there are more people who are genuinely confused by the false statements made in real estate ads (whether prompted by brokers or landlords) than there are in this hypothetical category. -
I clearly recall years ago an acquaintance telling me she had just rented an apartment in Park Slope. When I inquired where she had rented, she replied "on Windsor Place". In case you didn't know, there's an entire n'hood south of Park Slope called "Windsor Terrace". It's been there a long time and it's named Windsor Terrace because of Windsor Place. Why she said Park Slope is unclear but the relationship of Park Slope to Windsor Terrace is similar to that of Prospect Heights to Crown Heights.
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SpaHa -- instead of Spanish Harlem
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Capt. Planet » I clearly recall years ago an acquaintance telling me she had just rented an apartment in Park Slope. When I inquired where she had rented, she replied "on Windsor Place". In case you didn't know, there's an entire n'hood south of Park Slope called "Windsor Terrace". It's been there a long time and it's named Windsor Terrace because of Windsor Place. Why she said Park Slope is unclear but the relationship of Park Slope to Windsor Terrace is similar to that of Prospect Heights to Crown Heights.
I disagree. I think a better analogy between Prospect Heights and Crown Heights (especially the part of Crown Heights between Franklin and Classon) would be "South Slope" and the part of Greenwood Heights just South of the Prospect Expressway -
"drkman" » [quote="Backinbrooklyn"]but that appears to be motivated by real estate interests as you can command a better price if you state it is Prospect Heights. quote] Sorry, here's the quote I had meant to reference. My apologies to SBQ
Yes, that was me that stated real estate interests and I do believe that is the reason for so much discrepancy behind different borders of neighborhoods. It is not a condemnation of realtor's or landlords. I have no issue with a subset of a neighborhood being called one name since everyone knows that it is a part of a particular neighborhood (i.e., Striver's Row is Harlem, Weeksville, is Crown Heights, Stuyvesant Heights is Bed-Stuy) but to misled people and say that Nostrand and St. Johns is Prospect Heights or to try to move the Prospect Heights border to Franklin Ave is dishonest and an insult to all of us Crown Heighters who happen to like our neighborhood. In fact, why is it that name of the neighborhood between Franklin and Washington is even in question since historically it has been known as Crown Heights. Just my thoughts and I may be incorrect in saying real estate interests since it may be other influences as well.Reach for the Stars, saying I am and I am going to be.
Keep living and keep loving,
Anthony -
Drkman: The problem with Crown Heights is that it covers a vast area, which includes many "subneighborhoods" with high crime. The media doesn't of course use these "subneighborhoods" but labels everything Crown Heights, so we get stories like the one below. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010.....ring_stay_for_nyc_to.html Newcomers are natrually anxious and hungry for news about their new n'hood and when they or their friends see stories such as the above, they flip out and run away, even though the "subneighborhood" where they are moving to is much different than the one featured in the article. I guess one possible solution is to educate the media about these subn'hoods via letters to the editor. Any other ideas?
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Seems the Daily News link no longer works. Here's the same story in the NY Post, an even better source for reliable reporting. As far as I know, the story never made the NY Times, which is another problem. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/soccer_player_shot_and_killed_in_Uu2ApTyesmVa56ODsgE2PM
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Capt. Planet » Seems the Daily News link no longer works. Here's the same story in the NY Post, an even better source for reliable reporting. As far as I know, the story never made the NY Times, which is another problem. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/soccer_player_shot_and_killed_in_Uu2ApTyesmVa56ODsgE2PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/nyregion/31soccer.htm -
While the media can help foster the image that CH is diverse in many ways (especially vis a vis the amount of crime in a given section), the ultimate mission of a good salesperson is to find the right buyer. Real Estate is a very competitive field, and some (like Steve, mentioned above) find that misleading potential buyers is to their benefit. I am pleased that Capt does not seem to be willing to engage in such practices, and offer him continued verbal reassurance that "he can succeed in CH as a real estate professional, despite the fact that many hold negative images of the neighborhood. Images that equal parts reality, and equal parts preconceived notions that are blown out of proportion." In this environment, you must find that buyer. ....attempting to change the environment is likely to be a long process, perhaps once that is achieved long after we are all deceased. While such efforts are still worthwhile, you must live and earn money now ...in the short term. My advice is to partner with organizations and people that do great things for the 'hood, love it, and then introduce potential buyers to them. Promising and providing yummy cookies at Open Houses also seems to work.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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MHA » SpaHa -- instead of Spanish Harlem
Or NoUES- North Upper East Side[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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CrowNo Crown heights north.
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Whynot: Your mention of developing a n'hood prompted a string of associations. IN the real estate biz, the area a broker works can be referred as his "farm". In the agricultural game, farmers can either exploit their farm for quick gain, planting the same crop year after year, putting nothing back to replace what they have taken, quickly depleting the soil and ruining the land for future farmers, then moving on to another farm to repeat the cycle. OR, they can carefully tend their farm, rotating crops, using crops, soil amendments and maintenance based on careful observation to build up the land for future generations. Wendell Berry, who farms his family farm on the Ohio River when he's not writing beautiful poems and essays, has written extensively about a a farmer's obligation to his farm. Here's a snippet of what he writes about: Having once put his hand into the ground seeding there what he hopes will outlast him, a man has made a marriage with his place, and if he leaves it his flesh will ache to go back. To what extent does this agrarian view of land apply to a realtor's "farm"? An interesting question, but my sense is that is a pretty apt metaphor.
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As an undergrad in the Midwest, my fellow students were emotionally (almost religiously) attached to the land they farmed because it provided themselves and thier great grand parents with a means of support, as well as something that allowed them to part of a culture: "My family's farm is to the south of Fort Wayne". In a way, NYC residents are no different, and -like the family farmers- they feel threatened when they feel they are losing control over something so important to them. Mechanization, GM crops, and encroaching cities are analogies that may work well to the "about to be displaced renter". The Real Estate profession could be fairly (or unfairly) cast as something similar to the Monsanto rep..... The farmers must adapt or restrict themselves to selling overpriced orgaic food at the local college town.... Section 8 and rent control are, in this way, similar to a subsidy received by a small farm.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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So Cap'n, does your crop rotation metaphor represent cycles of white flight, followed by gentrification?
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I want know his feeling about farm subsidies. ....Monsanto believes they distort the market, and reduce demands for their products by allowing farmers to engage in inefficient practices.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Franklin Heights. Thats all.
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The federal landbanking program you refer to was as I understand it, an outgrowth of the Depression, when over production drove prices to the floor and farmers couldn't make any money no matter how much marginal land they farmed unsustainably. By subsidizing farmers not to grow on marginal land, the government is both protecting valuable wet lands/grass lands and allowing the farmer to make a living wage. I'm not surprised that Monsanto doesn't get that. Their over all mindset is short term and quick and dirty.
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and returning to CH, where Real Estate professionals could be fairly (or unfairly) cast as something similar to the Monsanto rep..... You may remember that as the bearers of bad news, the reps tell the farmers they must adapt or restrict themselves to selling overpriced organic food at the local college town.... In the CH version, reps are also bearers of bad news. They play a role of telling the residents and landlords they must adapt to the changing neighborhood. Sometimes they are even perceived as trying to give the new neighborhood a new name.
Yes, in an effort to "make the most out of the land", they encourage redevelopment of what has been no go zones (i.e. marginal land, wet lands, Section 8 buildings, rent control, etc). They are perceived as doing this even though those places are the very areas that:
Many hold on to as the only place they can live,
Many believed was deemed by the government to be in need of protection from outside forces.
Many perceived as crucial to the long term functioning of our city (um, "environment").
In this way, civil servants and health care workers, become an endangered species when the farm is fully used. By displacing such folks (areas?) under the guise of capitalism, and focusing on repeat sales (because properties that don't turn over often generate commissions less often), even the most well meaning real estate agents become viewed as not tending to the land
....the real estate professionals are instead viewed as tending only to thier commissions.
...to use the beat a dead horse, and use the prior analogy, they become viewed as practitioners of "Slash and burn" agriculture.
....like I said above, this doesn't mean the impression or analogy is fair.
....and it doesn't apply to all real estate agents of course.
But, yea, I like your industry's description of a neighborhood as being like a farm. And, I would completely love your co-workers to read this thread.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Perhaps this short promo says it best.... http://www.bam.org/view.aspx?pid=2230For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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The idea that one could farm a neighborhood in the same a farmer farms his land is an intriguing one and might be worth writing an essay about in someone's spare time. A generality that would apply to both n'hoods and farms I think is that change is good, but rapid change is bad. N'hoods that don't change become stagnant and boring in my opinion. Change keeps people evolving and engaged. Rapid change on the other hand, like that which Crown Heights went through in the 40's and 50's, when the n'hood from from 90% white to 90% black, is disruptive and destructive. To make an analogy with farming, when a farmer rotates his crops, perhaps replacing a depleting but valuable crop like corn with another valuable but nitrogen-fixing crop like soy, this improves the soil and makes it more valuable. When he on the other hand, when he leases that land to BP who drills for oil and spills half of the crude into the creek, that is bad for the land. In his brilliant book 1491, Charles Mann notes the many practices that native Americans (he refers to them throughout the book as "Indians") engaged in to continually improve the land without significantly disrupting it. They planted crops in small plots without fences, in land cleared by "girdling" trees. To grow crops with minimal effort and few inputs, they planted them in "guilds" the most famous of which are the three sisters, corn, beans and squash. Permaculturists are now studying the Indian ways to re-learn how to live sustainably on the land without breaking a sweat. Interestingly one of Mann's key theses is that the human population living in pre-Columbian America was much higher than previously estimated, perhaps equal to that of Europe. If that's the case, the argument that to live sustainably we have to reduce our population just doesn't hold water. It's really more a problem of good land management. How does that apply to Crown Heights? Can we have "guilds"? Disparate species and lifestyles that complement each other, that provide resilience and engagement through diversity? Hmmmmmm............. This may be worth looking into.
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Change is unstoppable. ...I don't expect real estate folks to attempt to stop it, nor do I blame them for participating in it. They certainly don't cause change. We all play a role, and blaming each other for something that was going to happen anyway makes no sense. As the linked film discusses, people who don't adapt run the risk of being left behind and existing in a fugue state of historical whimsy. I agree, if we were distribute our resources this land could support far more people. ....but I am not convinced that is goal I wish to pursue. I'd love a guild system, but they aren't real sustainable in a free market. I must admit, I do kinda like the ring of Crow Hill, Crown Heights thoughFor better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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The idea that one could farm a neighborhood in the same a farmer farms his land is an intriguing one and might be worth writing an essay about in someone's spare time. A generality that would apply to both n'hoods and farms I think is that change is good, but rapid change is bad. N'hoods that don't change become stagnant and boring in my opinion. Change keeps people evolving and engaged. Rapid change on the other hand, like that which Crown Heights went through in the 40's and 50's, when the n'hood from from 90% white to 90% black, is disruptive and destructive. To make an analogy with farming, when a farmer rotates his crops, perhaps replacing a depleting but valuable crop like corn with another valuable but nitrogen-fixing crop like soy, this improves the soil and makes it more valuable. When he on the other hand, when he leases that land to BP who drills for oil and spills half of the crude into the creek, that is bad for the land. In his brilliant book 1491, Charles Mann notes the many practices that native Americans (he refers to them throughout the book as "Indians") engaged in to continually improve the land without significantly disrupting it. They planted crops in small plots without fences, in land cleared by "girdling" trees. To grow crops with minimal effort and few inputs, they planted them in "guilds" the most famous of which are the three sisters, corn, beans and squash. Permaculturists are now studying the Indian ways to re-learn how to live sustainably on the land without breaking a sweat. Interestingly one of Mann's key theses is that the human population living in pre-Columbian America was much higher than previously estimated, perhaps equal to that of Europe. If that's the case, the argument that to live sustainably we have to reduce our population just doesn't hold water. It's really more a problem of good land management. How does that apply to Crown Heights? Can we have "guilds"? Disparate species and lifestyles that complement each other, that provide resilience and engagement through diversity? Hmmmmmm............. This may be worth looking into.
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