CH's orthodox communities wrestle with how to respond to an assault

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CH's orthodox communities wrestle with how to respond to an assault

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whynot_31
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Crown Heights [CHI] — A Crown Heights Bochur, who will be getting married next week, was walking with a friend toward Prospect Park last night. As they were passing the botanical gardens, a large group of about 30 African–American teenagers passed them by, snickering and shouting Anti-Semitic epithets which cannot be repeated on this website.

The two Bochurim just ignored them and tried to continue on their way, when suddenly the large group of teenagers surrounded them. One of them said to his friends, “want to see something funny?” the next second the soon-to-be-groom was punched square in the face, blacking him out and sending him crashing down to the pavement. The teenagers burst out laughing at the sight of this helpless Jew, and then walked off as if they knew that nothing will happen to them.

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=41883#c

Please join me in hoping that the calm, rationale commenters on that thread prevail.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
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If you read back through crownheights.info posts on crime, you'll find there's nothing unusual about either this type of event nor the assortment of responses it has generated.

I'm also skeptical about a number of facts in this story -- for starters, 30 people, really?

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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I'm always skeptical of websites and newspapers that cater to a given community exclusively.

That said, overall, I have been impressed with the restraint that the orthodox communities have exhibited in this instance and others that I have heard about over the past several years.

With a few exceptions, I have been impressed with the young orthodox men: They seem aware of the stupidity and potential consequences of "getting revenge" on a random, innocent black teen.

I'm not sure I had that same skill set when I was 21.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
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I suspect it has more to do with self-preservation than restraint.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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I suspect it is a lot of each.

The orthodox communities have shown that they are pretty organized, and can quickly and intelligently respond to threats.

I suspect a big part of it is at the individual level: Young orthodox men may perceive themselves as having futures that they are looking forward to; futures that would be lost if they were killed, seriously injured or had to go to prison for assault.

It also wouldn't surprise me if many young Orthodox men knew they will win in the long run: If they can keep their cool until they are 30, they are likely to have a large family, an apartment, a job, a minivan, and less testosterone.

Some young black men lack this outlook, and thus have radically different futures.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
cremate
getting it
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LOL@Minivan whynot

# Posted 1 yr ago
cremate
getting it
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Re the jewish assault... 2 words: Krav Maga

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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cremate said:
LOL@Minivan whynot

The Honda Odyssey is nice!

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
cremate
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Not enough dents!

# Posted 1 yr ago
PragmaticGuy
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The point is, this type of crime never happens one on one. It's always many against one. Whoever committed the crime would never have done it while he was alone. So, really he's a coward. His friends are probably the same way. Maybe it's more a lack of testosterone which causes these hoodlums to do this while in groups.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
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I been victim of group thug violence, they never do it alone. bunch of cowards. once i caught two of my attackers not in their neighborhood. they were huge cowards.

point is not unbelievable they come in huge groups.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
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Please. When's the last time you've seen a group of 30?

Cops would be on that shit like white on rice, whether they were harassing anyone overtly or not.

# Posted 1 yr ago
tsarina
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i'VE SEEN GROUPS OF 30 more than a couple times, getting out of school, or coming home from some event - all loud and annoying. Cops arent there all the time to do something. not everyone calls the precinct to complain, nor would police necessarily run right over to check it out. so stop chewing on that bone.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
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The teenagers burst out laughing at the sight of this helpless Jew

I burst out laughing at this ridiculous line.

Then I shed tears for the helpless women of most Brooklyn hasidic & orthodox communities.

What were we talking about again? Obnoxious teenagers?

Yeah, they suck.

A similar thing has happened to friends of mine. But they weren't orthodox. They weren't even Jewish.

I wonder if such events are worth of such blog posting?

Oh, hey, you know what else sucks?

Haredi modesty patrols that abuse, beat and chain up a 70 year old woman.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/02/haredi-modesty-patrol-beats-elderly-haredi-woman-456.html

Or the Haredi group in general which is apparently so violent the US Gov issues travel warnings.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/02/us-issues-travel-warning-about-haredi-violence-123.html

You know what sucks worst of all? The thinly veiled bigotry of a lot of articles on that Crown Heights web site.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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armchair_warrior said:
I been victim of group thug violence, they never do it alone. bunch of cowards. once i caught two of my attackers not in their neighborhood. they were huge cowards.

point is not unbelievable they come in huge groups.

Today's report involves a storekeeper and a group of ten (10) youth.

Today at around 3:00pm, a group of about ten 15-year-old public school teens crowded into the Sell-a-Bration stationary and toy store on Kingston Ave., and began to get rowdy. Fearing damage to his store and goods, Yisroel Greenberg politely requested that they exit the store and re-enter two at a time.

Things quickly went downhill from there. The teenagers began yelling at the shopkeeper that he was only asking them to leave because he is “racist.” They began hurling accusations at the owner, saying things like “we black so our money is no good here?” and “you think we gonna steal because we black?” to which he simply said “I cannot have this many people in my store at once.”

One of them then knocked over a display case, causing about $200 worth of damage.

Hearing the commotion, a number of fellow shopkeepers came to help. They held on to the teen who caused the damage while the rest of them fled, and called Shomrim, who were followed by the Police. When the police arrived, the teen started shouting that he was assaulted by the storeowner.

Sgt. Al Kelley (who is in charge of community affairs) was phoned by one of the officers and asked how to handle the situation. Sgt. Kelley said "if the kids were also hurt then they all get arrested 'even Steven,'” (his exact words). He didn’t care what the kids did.

The Police officer was very polite and helpful, but he told the storeowner that it would not be worthwhile to press charges, because the perpetrator is a minor, and because he would probably face counter charges on the assault claim, even though it was obvious to all those present that no such thing occurred.

Instead, the cop took down the numbers to the kid’s parents and school, and promised that the appropriate measures would be taken to ensure that nothing of the sort would happen again.

source: http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=41981#c

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
armchair_warrior
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Joined: Dec '05
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why even bother calling the parents, probably would curse them out for evening bothering them with these problems for wasting their time etc...

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 1 yr ago
cremate
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Who the heck is Shomrim?!

# Posted 1 yr ago
ntfool
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The official hassidic community's "neighborhood watch". I use quotation marks because my impression is that they are far more organized than a standard neighborhood watch, and often work in tandem with the local police precinct on community matters.

It appears most of said community would call Shomrin when a crime is taking place before 9-1-1.

If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

spurn Productions, Inc.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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Yes, they are quite organized and often have several men on duty at all times.

Although they are unarmed, the response time of Shromrim volunteers is often much faster than that of the police. For example, I recently witnessed a car accident on Eastern Parkway in which a orthodox guy called Shromrim and 911, seconds apart. Shromrim volunteers and the volunteer ambulance company (Hatzolah) were there almost immediately, while the FDNY ambulance and NYPD took several minutes to respond. Once FDNY and NYPD arrived, the Shromrim and ambulance handed over the situation to them.

In my experience, Lubavitch in need of assistance will call Shromrim AND the NYPD, with the order being determined partly by chance, and partly by the circumstances involved (i.e. the location, whether violence is involved, etc.)

A while ago, we discussed Shromrim on Brooklynian. Like many neighborhood watch groups and security forces, their work is fraught with political and physical risks. They are loved by some and hated by others.

They will reportedly respond to calls in their catchment area, regardless of whether anyone involved is Jewish.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
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They will reportedly respond to calls in their catchment area, regardless of whether anyone involved is Jewish.

Whether they treat all people equally upon arrival is, of course, highly in dispute.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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In this instance, Shromrim came to the aid of a black woman who had just been robbed by a black man.

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=29082&catid=23

The reporter states that the first Shromrim on the scene was almost arrested, but the black woman was found and verified the Shromrim's account of the event.

These problems are similar to those that the Guardian Angels regularly encounter, but Shromrim have additional risks re: racial/cultural/religious factors.

For as active as they are in the area, I have been impressed that there is not more controversy. They walk the delicate balance between security force, neighbor watch, vigilante, and police.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
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whynot_31 said:
They will reportedly respond to calls in their catchment area, regardless of whether anyone involved is Jewish.

Of course they will. They're wannabe cops. Responding to calls is what gives them legitimacy and it's a source of pride.

Well, that's the cynical view. I'm sure they all do the best they can to protect anyone in the borders of their community

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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I can only imagine how incredibly bad it would look Shomrim were shown to consistently respond to calls on something other than a purely geographic basis.

It would be like the volunteer fire department that lets the houses burn down, because the guy didn't pay the fee, only in this case the "fee that wasn't paid" is not monetary but a complex mix of factors.

If you have decided to have an enclave based on religion, race, etc in NYC, such quagmires might be inherent parts of the deal...

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
homeowner
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/nyregion/thecity/01patr.html?_r=2&ref=thecity&oref=slogin

Back when Shomrim was competing with Shmira (another CH neighborhood watch group) the response to calls was very important. They'd try to beat one another to the calls and the sense I got was they become much more open to responding to any call. I haven't seen much abou Shmira in the press recently, so I wonder if they have managed to survive.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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It seems that Shmira lost that round. If it is still around, it seems to be in a much smaller form.

Remember when some NYC neighborhoods were in such a dire states that they were willing to hire security companies affiliated with the Nation of Islam?

So far, Shomrim has avoided the vast majority of the problems that reduced the size and power of that organization.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
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For as active as they are in the area, I have been impressed that there is not more controversy.

Give it time.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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When running such programs, it is difficult to avoid vigilante situations like this.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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As a result of Shomrim, a teen is under arrest for breaking into a car.

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=42464&catid=23

Meanwhile Eric Adams, it trying to get other efforts under way:

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Park Place
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Boygabriel said:

They will reportedly respond to calls in their catchment area, regardless of whether anyone involved is Jewish.

Whether they treat all people equally upon arrival is, of course, highly in dispute.

Highly in dispute?

Dispute by whom and what is the exact and specific nature of the dispute? Can you provide clear and specific answers and/or examples? Personally, I would respect you more if you simply said what you imply in your comments. That the jews are picking on the blacks? That Is what you are really saying? Is that correct or incorrect?

The jews in CH have money to afford a type of private police. Do you see that as wrong? Do you see it as evil? If so, spread the blame around because it exists in every gated community and enclave in the country. The rich have good protection and the poor do not. The rich have good health care and the poor do not. The rich have good education and the poor do not.The poor depend on the cops and you know that can be hit or miss.

If I were rich, I would buy the best protection that money can buy as most of the rich do. What would you do? Depend on 911? Bob Dylan said it best. "The cops don't need you and man they expect the same."

I feel bad for you as you seem to be devoid of an ability to come to terms with the racism that exists in CH and PS. We dance around it but we do not speak candidly. We do not have open and honest dialogue and that is a part of the problem. 30 or so people of color assaulted a chasid. Is this a major shock to your system? Did you expect 30 or so Chassid's to attack a person of color? Answer VERY carefully as your common sense and ability to articulate your knowledge of life's reality is on the line.

Honestly, I sense you are smart and I do not mean to be difficult but struggle to understand your grasp on life as it is? I am not a fan of the system and the way life can be unfair but to cast aspersions is irresponsible and devoid of any real substance that will add to the collective conversation.

“When he shall die, take him and cut him out in little stars and he will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will be in love with night and pay no worship to the garish sun.”

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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In an instance that happened yesterday, a Jewish teen was being robbed of his cell phone by three black teens. However, a large black man intervened.

He stopped the assault.

He got back the cell phone.

He walked the injured Jewish youth to school.

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=43183&catid=23

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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Two Shomrim members in Baltimore are presently being tried for assaulting a black teen, and the trial is getting a fair amount of press:

CH info » Jewish neighborhood watch groups in New York City have faced accusations of unnecessary force against blacks, creating tensions between the Jewish and black communities. That hasn't yet happened in Baltimore, according to the Rev. Alvin Gwynn Sr., president of the Interdenominational Ministerial Alliance. The organization of predominantly black clergy met with leaders of the area's Jewish community to keep relationships between the two communities strong.

“We were already working with them when this came up,” Gwynn said. “It hasn't done much damage yet.”

Baltimore is a city that's 64 percent black, and the jury will likely have eight or nine black members. So race will be a factor, said University of Baltimore School of Law professor and practicing attorney Byron Warnken.

source: http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=43323&catid=47

more press here and here.

While legal outcome of the case should be interesting, I fear cases like this will make "good people" hesitant to participate in neighborhood watches:

a. They don't want the negative actions of some other member(s) of the group to reflect on them.

b. They fear that if accused of something, they would be on their own to defend themselves.

Establishing a neighborhood watch usually stems from a balance between competing forces. For example, the public may realize that the police can not be everywhere at once, yet might not want "more police" because they do not feel the solution involves the courts.

On the other hand, some members of the public want more police attention, yet can't get it.

The police walk a similar line: They would love for crime to go down, but are weary of being seen coaching neighborhood volunteers who may engage in actions that make their jobs even more difficult.

If my fear comes true, we will have less thinking, cautious people willing to participate in neighborhood watches and more people looking for excitement and revenge.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Park Place
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Joined: Oct '09
Posts: 122

"CH's orthodox communities wrestle with how to respond to an assault"

Interesting title to a post because the answer is not only simple but stylized as well.

There is not response. No press conference, no outrage, no chatter of getting along or living together.

You simply go on with life. There is nothing to be fixed, nothing to be addressed and nothing to be done. Absolutely nothing. It is not an opportunity to learn and it is not an chance to share. It is a time to attempt to find the bad guys and let the law deal with them. These thing will happen forever and there is little that can be done.

“When he shall die, take him and cut him out in little stars and he will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will be in love with night and pay no worship to the garish sun.”

# Posted 1 yr ago
whynot_31
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Today, the communities came together to catch a cell phone thief.

In the photos, he looks about 16.

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=44155#c

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 12 mos ago
armchair_warrior
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Joined: Dec '05
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too bad punk didn't get a ole fashion beating.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 12 mos ago
whynot_31
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Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,048

AW-
A big part of my admiration/fascination/interest stems from the ability of the responders to work within the confines of our very flawed criminal justice system.

As stated above, the responders seem:

1. Able to focus on the long term effects of their actions on the entire community.

2. Quite united in how such situations should be handled.

3. Able to control members who want to respond with violence.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 12 mos ago