Have folks seen this? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704657704576150240750373316.html?mod=rss_newyork_real_estate
Not feeling the characterization of Crown Heights. And what the heck is "ProCro"?
"prospect heights edges into crown heights" is the headline.
where did you get "prospect heights condo boom swallows up crown heights"?
the only characterization of crown heights i see is in terms of real estate.
at least "procro" is more honest than saying it's prospect heights.
The title about the boom comes from Curbed: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2011/02/18/prospect_heights_condo_boom_swallowing_up_crown_heights.php
Descriptions of Crown Heights from the author and sources that they quote:
- "creaky, rent-controlled buildings and graffiti-pocked bodegas."
- "a new neighborhood where's there's nothing going on."
- "Crown Heights is not as fashionable. The building stock isn't as nice..."
Now granted, being a "pro-Crown Heights" blogger, I'm particularly critical of negative representations of the neighborhood. So maybe others see the overall article as innocuous, but those particular points jumped out at me.
"The building stock isn't as nice"
The curbed and WSJ writers seems to prefer new housing stock.
I love pre-war housing, with its solid, sound proof construction. I'd feel sorta naked living in a glass box.
Granted, some of the tenement style housing is not as nice as the brownstones (and a lot of the tenements could be accurately described as creaky and rent controlled), but CH has a lot of well maintained brownstones and a lot of big, old mansions that are slowly being made whole again (they are being un-subdivided).
"there's nothing going on"
Like much of NYC, a lot of CH it isn't geared toward young single adults who make 55 - 75k a year. The author is right: there aren't as many places to eat and drink in CH as there are in PH, PS, or Smith Street. ....this seems to be changing, however.
- "creaky, rent-controlled buildings and graffiti-pocked bodegas."
i mean...i guess not all the buildings are creaky, and not all of the bodegas are graffiti-covered
- "Crown Heights is not as fashionable. The building stock isn't as nice..."
if real estate values dictate how fashionable a neighborhood is, then CH isn't as fashionable as PH. of course, there a lot of nice buildings in CH.
The commenters of Brownstoner weigh in:
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2011/02/development_on.php#comments
Now again, I am biased, but I think Crown Heights has some pretty stellar housing stock. It is not all massive concrete buildings, and the portrayal of it as such is misleading.
Has anyone been to President's street near New York Avenue? Generally, east of Nostrand (and maybe even starting at Bedford) has some pretty unique and striking buildings:
And here's even more. Tons more, but I'll stop there.
- "creaky, rent-controlled buildings and graffiti-pocked bodegas."
- "a new neighborhood where's there's nothing going on."
- "Crown Heights is not as fashionable. The building stock isn't as nice..."
all true..there are graffiti pocked bodegas and plenty of creaky rent controlled bldgs..
and as opposed to prospect heights, ft greene or park slope, CH does relatively have not much going on.
There's def a diff between CH & PH which is accurately reflected in the rents & prices
Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
I'm with Laurel on this one - these little generalizations form a tired narrative of "urban decline - scary things happen - developers arrive - condos and coffee!" that sucks any agency neighborhood residents might have right out of the story and celebrates this developmthient teleology that ends somewhere in Battery Park City. He makes one of the world's largest, longest-running, and most spectacular street festivals (the West Indian Day Parade) sound like a post-riot thing that should reassure people considering buying a condo on Classon.
Also, this "condo boom" hasn't been seamless at all, and the story doesn't reflect that - there's still a huge hole at Franklin and Eastern, where one of these glassy condos was supposed to go, there are more holes or half-built hulks rotting over on St. Marks and Bergen just east of Grand, many of these buildings took far longer to complete than they were supposed to, and despite the official sales stats, I'm not convinced anyone actually lives in some of them (like Ishi). The condo boom might be peripherally indicative of neighborhood change, but it's definitely not at the heart of the story.
The real deal is that the properties between Nostrand and Albany on average are far superior to those between Washigton and Nostrand.
Which is why the former area is now largely landmarked or calendared for landmarking.
I once asked a well-known architectural historian about this seeming anomaly and was told that prime areas tended to separated from other prime areas by less expensive rental properties where the "support staff" for the wealthy folks lived. Apparently the area between Washington and Nostrand was one of those "non-prime" areas.
Makes sense to me.
The real deal is that the properties between Nostrand and Albany on average are far superior to those between Washigton and Nostrand.
definitely
I agree as well.
...and now put forward the following thoughts:
While the area between Nostrand and Albany has really nice housing, much of it rich in architectural and wood details, the neighborhood isn't going to appeal to many new home buyers:
1. The units are large in scale, and thus too expensive.
2. Old housing stock requires a homeowner that likes to tinker, and many new home buyers don't have the interest OR skill set.
3. The neighborhood (until recently) has lacked some of the amenities young families seek: bars, restaurants, etc.
....which leads me to believe that it may be most appealing to those who have owned previously, and wish a large well kept brownstone surrounded by other mid-to-late career professionals.
I imagine the properties Nostrandpark displays to be occupied by people who bought into the neighborhood long ago, and whom just smile whenever they are asked what they paid for it:
.....their kids have graduated college and wish similar deals were available to them.
"I'd rather not say how much I paid. I'll just say that I could never afford something like this today, and may never move."
Suffice it to say, I would buy there in a heartbeat. I might buy a brownstone that was a little worn, then slowly and lovingly bring it back to its original glory.
Interesting observation about the difference in housing stock
If only "East PH" were a little safer, and the cross town buses a little more frequent.
Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
ProCro returns, courtesy of Gothamist: http://gothamist.com/2011/04/06/video_crown_heights_locals_react_to.php
Thoughts? I've done my usual ranting here: http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2011/04/crown-heights-all-over-news.html
Capt. Planet said:
The real deal is that the properties between Nostrand and Albany on average are far superior to those between Washington and Nostrand.I once asked a well-known architectural historian about this seeming anomaly and was told that:
prime areas tended to separated from other prime areas by less expensive rental properties where the "support staff" for the wealthy folks lived.
Apparently the area between Washington and Nostrand was one of those "non-prime" areas.
That was one of my points about Franklin Ave. in the post: Fisher’s Supermarket – Revamped & Restocked – A Changing Store In An Ever Changing Community
But times change and unless, generally speaking, the majority of a community can afford to maintain the expensive upkeep on those grand, large scale homes - they usually sadly deteriorate, because of years of neglect, and then are auctioned off or sold and then sub-divided into apts at best or SRO's at worst..
East Of Nostrand used to be way more grand than the pictures Nostrand Park provided in the post above - many of those grand brownstones were built AFTER the mansions were torn down from around 1900 - 1920's.
Usually 2 - 3 semi-mansions, at most, were on a street and those semi-mansions depth usually stretched a city block from from St. Marks to Bergen - as one example.
Homes of that scale took a team "of help" to maintain.
So in essence, not only does Franklin Ave have the extra advantage of being right by the express trains - after all the working class, blue-collars had to/and still do - travel to work, unlike the wealthier person more than likely was driven to work, if not worked out of a home office of some sorts.
Washington to Franklin Ave area - was - cheaper to buy the smaller properties, and as more middle-class, primarily whites, were priced out of Park Slope and moved into Prospects Heights - PH's reputation began to become more "positive".
Then, Realtors tried to name any property usually a block immediately east of Washington Ave - where Crown Heights officially begins - as Prospect Heights.
But trying to push "Prospects Heights" as far East as Franklin Ave. - and command those ridiculous prices for the quickly slapped together condos ie 1.3 Million Dollars for a 2 bedroom - has proved much more difficult than they and the developers initially speculated.
So that's where Pro-Cro comes into play.
It's a matter of semantics and economics, which does unfortunately include a large elements of class and race "fears", which many, but not all, people want to tip toe around.
Present day Crown Heights name has "stigma" compulsively attached and associated to it, justifiably or not.
Now Pro-Cro - which many people consciously use it to quickly circumvent any stigma attached to Crown Heights - to try and obtain the the highest price they can, if they are sellers or Realtors, - even if the geographical location they are referring to is in actual Crown Heights.
Imagined Conversation between Realtor and perspective client:
Pro-Cro - Client - "Sounds interesting, tell me more about this delightful up and coming sounding neighborhood.
Crown Heights - "Good God! You must be joking?! I said I wanted to live there, this is not an investment property. (Inner Dialogue) "Is this guy crazy? Don't they shoot white people there! How long before the neighborhood's racial balance turns over? There's just no way, no way, just no way I can do it, I'm not racist but.., there's just no way. Crown Height - Good God No!
Tried to go a bit deeper and more nuanced here.
But the core question truly is:
... given all the changes – good and/or bad – Crown Heights has been going through over the years, does ANYONE have the right to try and change the name of Crown Heights and/or it’s boundaries to make a more affluent – usually people not of color – feel safer to move into the community?
Snowboardqueen, the nuanced link isn't working.
20 years ago, I had people laugh at me when I called where I lived on 1st Street and 5th Avenue "Park Slope." Now it's considered "center Slope." Neighborhood names and boundaries have always changed with the populations that move into and out of them. It may no longer happen as quickly as it did during the RE bubble, but it'll keep happening nonetheless.
Sorry, here's THE WORKING LINK, where I try to go a little bit deeper and more nuanced.
But the core question truly is:
... given all the changes – good and/or bad – Crown Heights has gone through over the years, does ANYONE have the right to try and change the name of Crown Heights and/or it’s borders to make a more affluent – usually people not of color – feel safer to move into the community?
There was a time Crown Heights wasn't Crown Heights...
I think a name change warrants a vote, and I imagine those being proud of what CH is, not what some goofy rock climbing RE agent wants his clients to believe it is, swallowing the gentry whole & preserving CH's history (good and bad- it is what it is).
Fuhgeddabadit
Realtors to a large degree nauseate me with their name changes. I recently took a train ride up to Ossining for work... lots of goofy abbreviations. SoYo (South Yonkers), SoBro... SoLame
Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
For me it boils down to freedom of speech, they have the right so call it Mars if they want to.
Totally agree Snowboard Queen. Isnt this always the practice of realtors? Rename a place that has been home to brown and black folk (and thus very scary to some) and then forget black and brown folk ever lived there...
South Brooklyn became Park Slope
Crown Heights became Prospect Heights
Harlem becomes Morningside Heights
Bedstuy becomes Clinton Hill
Spanish Harlem becomes Upper Yorkville
and the one that isnt sticking South Bronx becomes SoBro.
I guess this is Branding 101 if you want people to pay top dollar. I guess we could probably play a game with this and think of all the neighborhoods were this erasure has happened.
My favorite example of this in the suburbs, where upon building a new subdivision the name it after what was there
Beaver creek
Deer run
Mill brook
Shady hollow
Trumystic said:
Totally agree Snowboard Queen. Isnt this always the practice of realtors? Rename a place that has been home to brown and black folk (and thus very scary to some) and then forget black and brown folk ever lived there...
South Brooklyn became Park Slope
Crown Heights became Prospect Heights
Harlem becomes Morningside Heights
Bedstuy becomes Clinton Hill
Spanish Harlem becomes Upper Yorkville
and the one that isnt sticking South Bronx becomes SoBro.I guess this is Branding 101 if you want people to pay top dollar. I guess we could probably play a game with this and think of all the neighborhoods were this erasure has happened.
I'm curious, in your estimate, what is it that makes "some" so afraid of "brown and black folk"?
Is this "erasure" somehow more significant than similar demographic trends affecting Italians, Poles, Irish, Germans? If so, why?
Welcome! Please log in to post, or register a new account!
now :
most recent : god, epiclylaterd, opossumqueen, brb321, johndoeboy, sidewalker, newguy88, limestonekid, bkjones, omulubrooklyn, hamilton, oboekatie, roux42, stewart, delvecchio, back to brooklyn, anna famoso, terekete, walkathon, landlord, the collection next door, rasp153, ribbons, tsarina, mishaps, howncreights, bohuma, strangeattractor, eastbloc, art, admin, turtle95, ringrunner, foolio, park place, vick5y, seussan
Get Brooklynian.com by Email! 
Grab the Feed (RSS)
