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Interesting article in today's Daily News.
Seems the gloating on this board about the defeat of the referendum on Nassau Coliseum might be in for a surpise.
Nets and Islanders, now that's a winning combination.
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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Capt-
Are you talking about this thread?http://brooklynian.com/forum/prospect-heights/bruce-where-da-jobs-at
where (about a week ago) I:
a. Resented not being able to vote on whether public money is given to a private corporation.
b. Noted no one is likely happier about the defeat of Nassau Coliseum than the owners of Barclays.
c. Expected the arena to be even more profitable and successful now.
d. Knew the arena was going to be in Prospect Heights and not Crown Heights.
whynot_31 said:
The people who will run Barclays Arena were likely happiest of all those in Nassau voted the referendum down.On this aspect the Capt and I agree:
The Arena will be booked every night, and tremendously succe$$ful.
If I were the developers, I would think that I got a steal on an awesome location.
Someday we might live up to your fantasy of us being simplistic NIMBY's ....but not yet.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
interesting
http://www.tripledeke.net/2011/08/tripledeke-poll-islanders-arena/
a little wider nowdestination: roam -
The vote in Nassau was absolutely meaningless. The pols were just hoping to have something they could take to the Nassau Interim Finance Authority to try and convince them to approve the lending.
You can bet they have a plan B, C, etc. -
As locals rail against parking lots at Atlantic Yards, here's an idea they might want to consider.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/science/earth/11meter.html?_r=1&hp
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By the way, I think cars suck. I'm selling mine and sharing a friend's. Care to join me?
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Capt. Planet said:
By the way, I think cars suck. I'm selling mine and sharing a friend's. Care to join me?I wish I could, but the last time I owned a car was 2003.
Can I borrow your friend's once and a while?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
whynot_31 said:
Capt-
Are you talking about this thread?http://brooklynian.com/forum/prospect-heights/bruce-where-da-jobs-at
where (about a week ago) I:
a. Resented not being able to vote on whether public money is given to a private corporation.
b. Noted no one is likely happier about the defeat of Nassau Coliseum than the owners of Barclays.
c. Expected the arena to be even more profitable and successful now.
d. Knew the arena was going to be in Prospect Heights and not Crown Heights.
Someday we might live up to your fantasy of us being simplistic NIMBY's ....but not yet.
And when was the last time the Federal government,or the state government, spent any money on public housing? The last Federally financed housing unit was built decades ago. Now it's just Federal Section 8 vouchers going to pay private and often wealthy owners.
Knowing the likely resistance from the public to providing subsidies for affordable housing and stadium development, Ratner wisely chose to make AY self-subsidizing by building luxury housing to cross-subsidize the affordable housing and costs of developing and operating the stadium.
That was the plan, at least until the "public" got involved. By the time the locals got done having their say, the real estate market had collapsed and more public monies were required to fill the gap in funding the market could no longer cover. -
I'm you want to spend the morning talking about how much the public spends on maintaining public housing, I'm fluent in Rent Control, Rent Stabilization, DRIE, SCRIE, 80/20, LIHTC, Portable and Project based Section 8 vouchers, HUD Sections 811 and 202, NYS DHCR, and the Federal Home Loan Bank.
Capt Planet » Knowing the likely resistance from the public to providing subsidies for affordable housing and stadium development, Ratner wisely chose to make AY self-subsidizing by building luxury housing to cross-subsidize the affordable housing and costs of developing and operating the stadium.
Are you claiming that DDDB's court challenges and the subsequent delays are the cause of this project being subsidized with public funds? If so, I think you should show how this project was not reliant on public funds since the beginning.
For example:
wiki » The MTA appraisal valued the railyard at $214 million in 2005; Forest City Ratner offered $50 million in cash, while another bidder offered $150 million. FCR eventually boosted its bid to $100 million, and said the overall value of its bid was higher than the appraised value, which was validated by the courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Yards
...this is going to be a great morning.
P.S. It'll take me a while to get used to the rename of the "Atlantic/Pacific" station to "Barclays Atlantic/Pacific".
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/nyregion/24naming.html
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Knowing the likely resistance from the public to providing subsidies for affordable housing and stadium development, Ratner wisely chose to make AY self-subsidizing by building luxury housing...
more smoke than mirrors...
he did make lucrative decisions for himself though
didn't he
destination: roam -
By the way, I think cars suck. I'm selling mine and sharing a friend's. Care to join me?
congratulations and kudos
you will be doing so what so many residents already have done
but with ay will come the immovable hairy beast
of traffic congestion
destination: roam -
Karl-
During your work on this project, did you learn how I can operate a for-profit enterprise on land that is nominally owned by NYS, yet not have to share any of its profits?From my vantage point, I only learned how Ratner achieved this.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
before can one make a lucrative deal in kings county
with public funds behind closed doors
one must buy off state and local politicians
pay off local organization leaders
'influence' judges coffersthen claim this very project
is for 'the children' of brooklyn
destination: roam -
whynot_31
do you hate the children of kings county?
destination: roam -
Karl the Druid said:
whynot_31do you hate the children of kings county?
I do not. Does this mean I can not charge their parents lots of money to see a show in an arena that the public paid for?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
affirmative
but here lies the gold
in generating new public funds
from the traffic congestion
win win?
destination: roam -
I can not wait to see how they use the traffic congestion funds.
...perhaps the Capt will be unable to sell his car, and he will have to pay tolls that support Metro Tech II?
...or a statue to Ratner, made of solid gold and inscribed "Public Servant".
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
you evil genius
destination: roam -
I actually think it is excellent that hockey may come to Barclays.
Whenever I see some dumb sucker lose a tooth or get slammed against the plexiglass, I will think of Bertha Lewis.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
whynot_31 said:
I'm you want to spend the morning talking about how much the public spends on maintaining public housing, I'm fluent in Rent Control, Rent Stabilization, DRIE, SCRIE, 80/20, LIHTC, Portable and Project based Section 8 vouchers, HUD Sections 811 and 202, NYS DHCR, and the Federal Home Loan Bank.Capt Planet » Knowing the likely resistance from the public to providing subsidies for affordable housing and stadium development, Ratner wisely chose to make AY self-subsidizing by building luxury housing to cross-subsidize the affordable housing and costs of developing and operating the stadium.
Are you claiming that DDDB's court challenges and the subsequent delays are the cause of this project being subsidized with public funds? If so, I think you should show how this project was not reliant on public funds since the beginning.
For example:
wiki » The MTA appraisal valued the railyard at $214 million in 2005; Forest City Ratner offered $50 million in cash, while another bidder offered $150 million. FCR eventually boosted its bid to $100 million, and said the overall value of its bid was higher than the appraised value, which was validated by the courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Yards
...this is going to be a great morning.
P.S. It'll take me a while to get used to the rename of the "Atlantic/Pacific" station to "Barclays Atlantic/Pacific".
WN, great list of disfunctional, defunct or under-funded programs. Having worked for 15 years for a non-profit developer who was one of the biggest recipients of LIHTC monies in the country, I've seen the devil from the inside out - and it ain't pretty.
What you've managed to miss in your view of the trees is the forest - namely the bulk of HUD's money now goes to Section 8, not any of the aforementioned alphbet soup of programs.And yes, Ratner's original plan for AY relied on less public money than it does now. For a lot of reasons but certainly not the least of which is that whiny millionaire Daniel Goldstein.
whynot_31 said:
I'm you want to spend the morning talking about how much the public spends on maintaining public housing, I'm fluent in Rent Control, Rent Stabilization, DRIE, SCRIE, 80/20, LIHTC, Portable and Project based Section 8 vouchers, HUD Sections 811 and 202, NYS DHCR, and the Federal Home Loan Bank.Capt Planet » Knowing the likely resistance from the public to providing subsidies for affordable housing and stadium development, Ratner wisely chose to make AY self-subsidizing by building luxury housing to cross-subsidize the affordable housing and costs of developing and operating the stadium.
Are you claiming that DDDB's court challenges and the subsequent delays are the cause of this project being subsidized with public funds? If so, I think you should show how this project was not reliant on public funds since the beginning.
For example:
wiki » The MTA appraisal valued the railyard at $214 million in 2005; Forest City Ratner offered $50 million in cash, while another bidder offered $150 million. FCR eventually boosted its bid to $100 million, and said the overall value of its bid was higher than the appraised value, which was validated by the courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Yards
...this is going to be a great morning.
P.S. It'll take me a while to get used to the rename of the "Atlantic/Pacific" station to "Barclays Atlantic/Pacific".
WN, great list of disfunctional, defunct or under-funded programs. Having worked for 15 years for a non-profit developer who was one of the biggest recipients of LIHTC monies in the country, I've seen the devil from the inside out - and it ain't pretty.
What you've managed to miss in your view of the trees is the forest - namely the bulk of HUD's money now goes to Section 8, not any of the aforementioned alphbet soup of programs.And yes, Ratner's original plan for AY relied on less public money than it does now. For a lot of reasons but certainly not the least of which is that whiny millionaire Daniel Goldstein.
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capt » WN, great list of disfunctional, defunct or under-funded programs. Having worked for 15 years for a non-profit developer who was one of the biggest recipients of LIHTC monies in the country, I've seen the devil from the inside out - and it ain't pretty.
What you've managed to miss in your view of the trees is the forest - namely the bulk of HUD's money now goes to Section 8, not any of the aforementioned alphbet soup of programs.
Forest? Tell it to former DHCR Comiss. Deborah VanAmerongen. It looks like she is doing ok in her new role in the private sector, and has adjusted to the new funding priorities. But I am curious, how does this conversation relate to me not wanting public money to go to a privately owned arena?
You are brighter than Bertha. From working in the "affordable housing" sector, you are well aware that these shams have little to do with providing housing that is actually affordable.
As someone who visits the Furman Center, you know that flexible income ranges allow developers to exclude most of NYC from "affordable housing". Affordable housing might still exist as close as Sullivan County. However, you seem to resent those opposed to a publicly funded arena for believing the same thing.
Doesn't NIMBY have specific definition? Do you really believe you can assign the term to anyone opposed to a "mere facet" of a project (...like the use of public funds...) and have it stick?
capt » And yes, Ratner's original plan for AY relied on less public money than it does now. For a lot of reasons but certainly not the least of which is that whiny millionaire Daniel Goldstein.
That the plan relied on public money from the beginning is what made many people upset. Yes, it is a sad irony that by protesting such a misuse of funds, more public money ended up being spent.
Are you proposing a new standard for citizen participation?
"If you protest the misuse of public funds, you will held responsible for world events"
Can we really blame the downfall of the economy and a huge parking lot along Atlantic Ave on a bunch of folks who use to drink too much at Freddy's?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
WN, this is just a lot of sorting chaff.
The wheat is that Ratner is a product of the public sector, one of the few developers who can make that claim, having been a Commissioner of Consumer Affairs, who actually spent years fighting for the little guys. His brother is none other than Michael Ratner, head of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which has similarly done a lot to protect the average citizen. Do we see a pattern here?
The fact that Forest City was the first major developer on the East Coast to agree to a Community Benefits Agreement, signing on with the devil herself - Bertha Lewis, a woman I wouldn't want to share a subway car with, let alone become a partner in a real estate deal with, not to much other more benign souls as James Caldwell. These are real people, not dummies propped up as a facade, but folks with long and real ties to the community.
If you really want someone to blame for the stadium try Marty Markowitz. Bringing a major league sports franchise to Brooklyn has been a dream of his for years. Marty was the one who twisted Bruce's arm to build the stadium, a decision he may well regret. Nonetheless, it was Ratner's prowess as a developer that made the residential and commercial real estate piece happen. I'm sure it wasn't in Marty's game plan. The real estate piece will generate a huge tax revenue stream on a site that was owned by the MTA, which contributed nothing to the tax base. The profits from the sale of the luxury condos would have gone to pay for a lot of infrastucture work.
Boy, I must be bored going through all of that. But short of asking the general public to spend 25 years in real estate development, I don't there's little that one could do to help folks get what's going on here. -
I think there were five, at times overlapping, groups:
1. Those who knew what was occurring, but felt helpless to stop it.
2. Those who tried to stop it, and were amazed that public money could be misused so easily.
3. Those who called people against the arena NIMBYs because they worked in real estate.
4. Those who appreciated Karl's artwork
5. Those who watched the Real World on MTV.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
And I forgot to mention the impact of peak oil on this development. When gas is $20 a gallon, people will be glad that the only stadium in Brooklyn is also on top of the biggest mass transit hub in Brooklyn.
No ever wants to talk about peak oil because it's simply too overwhelming. But they do love to howl about hyrdo fracking, as well they should.
But no one would be even considering hydro fracking if we weren't running out of the cheap readily accesible form of gas.
The giant oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? The tar sands, recently renamed "oil sands", in Alberta? How long will this go on before people can give up their oil addition?
Let's start talking about what that would look like, rather than spend another minute protesting hydro fracking, tar sands or Artic oil drilling by Royal Dutch Shell. Or Atlantic Yards. -
I'm a reasonable guy.
All I ask, is that next time, you tell me to put away my wallet because you have convinced people that the planet will be saved if they give me public money and valuable real estate to build a private arena.
I promise, that will be the only lie I let you make. I certainly won't bother to make any BS promises about affordable housing or jobs.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
No disrespect intended WN, but somehow I don't think you could raise billions for real estate development.
If you can, let's talk. I've got my eyes an abandoned school in Crown Heights that would make a great subsidized condo development. -
You are too cynical! ....The difference between what I can raise and a billion dollars is only about 6 decimal spots.
I say we forget the subsidies and silly promises of neighborhood change.
....let's leave the average taxpayer out of this and go for the wallets of the tree huggers; Let's install a "clean coal" furnace and tell people our building is LEED certified.
As we get good at it, we will work our way up to bigger lies
....Afterall, we have Ratner as our hero.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
this topic has become unmoored
let's return this discussion to
retro fitting the islanders
into an non-nhl compliant arena space
answer: sidewalk hockey
destination: roam -
The seats available after such a retrofit would put a damper on revenue.
But the only thing better that sidewalk hockey is parking lot hockey! It could be played on the massive, "Affordable Parking Lot" that is in the process of being created between Vanderbilt and Carlton.
While I expect our arena to always be full, I must admit the trashy part of me is jealous of the Queens Aqueduct Racetrack. Its always empty parking lot is used for flea markets, while the area awaits designation as a Native American reservation and casino.
So many cheap white tube socks, so far away.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Today seems to be the day for lots of press about how the Islanders moving to the new Barclays arena is now offical:
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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