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ON BAD BEHIND KIDS IN THE HOOD “Impersonal city streets make anonymous people, and this is not a matter of aesthetic quality nor of a mystical emotional effect in architectural scale.” ON TRANSIENT GENTRIFIERS "High rent tenants most of whom are so transient we cannot even keep track of tier faces, have not the remotest idea of who takes care of their street, or how. A city neighborhood can absorb and protest a substantial number oif these birds of passage as our neighborhood does. But if and when a neighborhood finally becomes them, they will gradually find he streets less secure, they will be vaguely mystified about it, and if things get bad enough they will drift away to another neighborhood which is mysteriously safer." -The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs. This lady is a genius. I so wish she was the mayor of NYC right now. Anyone else on here read her stuff?
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I don't think dead people can run for office. I might of voted for her anyway.
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Check with ACORN. She only died in April 2006; I think there is a clause that allows here to run up until 2012. Or until decomposition is too advanced.WHY am I always the meat in the middle of an imbecile sandwich?
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she also spent most of her life in the west village, which was a bohemian well-to-do neighborhood prior to her moving there. not sure i'd say the same about our 'hood. clayfilms, she also knew how to spell.
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I have always found it funny that people love to one up one another about how crappy/ghetto/rough their neighborhood is ,like living in filth or poverty are sources of pride. Most people look like they enjoy being able to buy a piece of fruit instead of a quarter drink. Being able to get your family a good plate of food,getting them safely from the train, being able to enjoy the area without crime and grime. In my view there are plenty of black gentrifires. It's not race. Having walked down Christopher St this week, we will soon here about how the street is no longer very gay. It's turning to high end boutiques.
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catwalkertexasranger » gentrifires
And just like that, catwalker unwittingly coined a new gem.i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness -
jeffrey » [quote="catwalkertexasranger"]gentrifires
And just like that, catwalker unwittingly coined a new gem.[/quote] I like it...but we should define its proper usage. Is it? A. A fire caused when the 6th burner on a Wolf range laps at an unfilled All-clad pot and eventually burns down a home? or B. A BBQ in which no meat on the grill costs less than $23/lb? -
C. Any gentriconfrontational flareup on an online message board
i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness -
(admittedly not as good as A, B, or C) D. How about when a fancy store opens on the block, and everyone stops going to the store that has been there for years? ....Has the old store been "gentrifired"?For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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I thought it best to use it even if spell check said otherwise. If the definition of gentrifire only applied in the kitchen I don't think there would be such a fuss when they moved to the area. Black gentrifires are those who own Dave Matthews CDs and pants that semi-fit.
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C. Any gentriconfrontational flareup on an online message board
Ah, so you are no longer a "moderator" but now a "gentrifire extinguisher" -
catwalker and arches- please stay on topic. We need an "E"For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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arches » Ah, so you are no longer a "moderator" but now a "gentrifire extinguisher"
NICE!
***edited to add:
As in:
Somebody call 911...
gentrifire burnin' on the CH board...
wo-ho-ho....
:-'i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness -
jeffrey » [quote="arches"]Ah, so you are no longer a "moderator" but now a "gentrifire extinguisher"
NICE!
***edited to add:
As in:
Somebody call 911...
gentrifire burnin' on the CH board...
wo-ho-ho....
:-'[/quote]
I hereby propose that Jeffrey change his title from Lint Collector to "Gentrifire Extinquisher"For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
i knew she was dead when i posted this..i just wish that she was alive so she could run for office... and thanks for the spell check everyone....my bad even tho jacobs lived in the west village...her words still speak volumes for crown heights today simply because she lived in a neighborhood that "worked" for the residents who lived there...and she fought against and beat a meglomaniac named moses who wanted to build a highway across the west village.. and as residents of a community that are about to gain a billion dollar sports complex in the middle of a neighborhood that "works" i think her words are at the least worth visiting... jacobs traveled to, studied and wrote about many inner city neighborhoods across the United States (pittsburgs, nyc, baltimore, boston) that were victims of city planners, bankers,insurance companies and city agencies in essence people who "redesign" cities based on ideology and not functionality (who usually don't even live in those cities).
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For instance alot of people on these boards complain about the problems of teenagers and young adult men who terrorize the main avenues and make people feel unsafe... Jacobs talks about how this is the fruit of a lack of public trust in neighborhoods and on city blocks. Casual public trust is formed by the numerous casual encounters (over time) with neighbors and local merchants on the block..but yall can't deny that if a neighborhood is constantly flooded with people who don't care to establish this basic casual public trust with their neighbors for whatever reason that this creates an environment where 15 year old kids can terrorize adults on a block and no one does anything about it.
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CLAYFILMS » .but yall can't deny that if a neighborhood is constantly flooded with people who don't care to establish this basic casual public trust with their neighbors for whatever reason that this creates an environment where 15 year old kids can terrorize adults on a block and no one does anything about it.
So you're saying that 15 yr olds committing crimes would only exists when a neighborhood is faced with high earner transients? Seriously? Maybe you're presuming that a stable neighborhood has some way of administering a "beating" physical or otherwise. -
Nah.... I'm saying that when you have a true neighborhood where there is a casual public trust that creates an environment where there is accountability for bad behind teenagers that prevents that from terrorizing men and women as they walk down the street on any given day. That's why back in the day...said teenagers (and miscreants of all ages) would take their shenanigans to areas with lower adult to miscreant ratios (like parks, alleyways etc..) So yes..a functional neighborhood has a way making it's residents feels safe even though you live among thousands of strangers..
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Clay, everything you say is true. ...and, if they ever existed, maybe those days will return sometime in the distant future. ...I just can't say I've ever seen what you describe, except maybe on Sesame Street. and now I can't get the the theme song out of my head.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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modsquad » Maybe you're presuming that a stable neighborhood has some way of administering a "beating" physical or otherwise.
I think that a stable neighborhood can, in a sense, administer a beating. How? Imagine if some kid was bumming around on a street lighting fires (this happened in PH last spring. The kid stopped, don't know why.) Imagine also if, to use one of JJ's favorite ideas, there were several "eyes on the street" or, people keeping a watch out for what's happening on their block. So, now when the kid lights the fire, someone might just happen to a) see the kid and provide a description to the cops b) know the kid and be able to dime him out to his parents. This is, of course, a rather simplistic view of how that works, and supposes that the parents actually care what this kid is up to. But still, I think that when people in a neighborhood take an active interest in what's happening where they live, it pays off in a safer, more stable place. That's the central point of JJ's thesis. We had a little impromptu neighborhood watch happening last month on Park Place, trying to get a guy who was snatching iPhones from unsuspecting owners' hands. He might have been caught tonight because someone recognized him and called the police. -
A greater majority of the population is absorbed only with their own lives as it unwinds within their own four walls. Wake up, go to work, come home, hunker down for the night. Physical social interaction - rapidly declining. This is not limited to transients or gentrification - as we have "progressed" there is a decrease in face to face involvement and interaction among those living in the same building or neighborhood. The decline in true human interaction parallels the decrease in empathy. If you do not develop a stake in the human element in the neighborhood, it is just a real estate investment - to be treated and assessed for profitability. Question to the group: 2010: Neighbor's child acting up. Do you approach the child and reprimand? Do you approach the parent and advise regarding the child's behavior? 1970: I was acting the fool and sneaking smokes in the park. Mrs. Z was walking her corgi and I can still feel the whack to the back of my head and the embarrassment of her blistering lecture. I hightailed it home HOPING to get there before she told my mom. I did - but the phone call later that night fixed my dumb ass anyway.WHY am I always the meat in the middle of an imbecile sandwich?
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The phenomena is well described in the book "Bowling Alone". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_AloneFor better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Many newcomers to Crown Heights are struck by the sense of community that exists on their block that never existed on their old "gentrified" block in Park Slope or Boerem Hill. Example: when my car was illegally double parked, a neighbor came over to tell me I was about to get a ticket. Never happened in Park Slope!
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CLAYFILMS » Nah.... I'm saying that when you have a true neighborhood where there is a casual public trust that creates an environment where there is accountability for bad behind teenagers that prevents that from terrorizing men and women as they walk down the street on any given day. That's why back in the day...said teenagers (and miscreants of all ages) would take their shenanigans to areas with lower adult to miscreant ratios (like parks, alleyways etc..) So yes..a functional neighborhood has a way making it's residents feels safe even though you live among thousands of strangers..
Sorry, this reads like double-speak BS to me. So the kids in these neighborhoods are only robbing and beating people because they're transients? You and the deceased Ms Jacobs are blaming the victims. Residents of a "functional neighborhood" feel safe because they know 1) their neighbor's children will NOT be out at all hours beating and robbing them BECAUSE their parents have raised them right or are keeping them in check, 2) if some crazed/stupid neighbor's kid does beat and rob someone the cops'll haul his ass to jail. Sorry but the asshole who beats and robs people is an asshole who either never learned or ignored all teachings on morality and respect for themselves and others. These assholes were broken long before any high-earning transients came into their nabes. Its not like on Monday you're a good kid, goes to school, listens to his parents, does his chores, helps little old ladies cross the street and then on Wednesday some stranger walks by w/ an IPhone so you punch them in the face and take their gear. That's not how it works. -
great convo. boogie knight: i agree with you..criminals of all ages who beat and rob people need to be sent to prison. but i speak from experience i've lived in brooklyn (crown heights/bed stuy) all my life and i know for a fact that mothers feel safe when they know that someone is looking out for their kids (who is on the streets between 3p-6p) when they can't...the older ladies on my parents block used to do that bottom line if you live in nyc, you live, work and play around thousands of strangers everyday and unless you have the discretionary income to choose who all of your immediate neighbors are, then it's in your best interest to engage in the casual public trust that might save your life or at least help you to not get mugged, or a parking ticket etc... i'm not saying invite everyone hanging out on the corner over for dinner..i'm just saying say take the headphones out of your ears as you walk to the train station and say "hello" to the people and merchants that you pass by everyday. why? b/c that's a building block at creating "community" in extremely dense neighborhoods like crown heights. it's a start.
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Subject: Gentrification, the 'Gentry', and the Lay-Folk They Supplant
I've been living on Sterling Place for nearly three years and in that time I've seen a marked change in the neighborhood. Namely, there are more white people. Also, some things have remained the same, like the dudes who sell marijuana nearby, and the police's obvious awareness of it, but either tolerance or indifference towards the selling. I've thought long and hard about these changes, and lack thereof. For instance, there are more services nearby - a 24 hour grocery store on Franklin and St. John's, but the prices for that convenience rival anything you will find in Manhattan. The folk who have been living in the neighborhood longer than I rarely frequent that store. There's also Bristen's on Franklin, and again, here is another place that the folk who have been living around the neighborhood almost never go to. A recent addition has been two new coffee shops on Franklin Avenue, and again, what you find are the young white bohemian-types going there with nifty thin laptops and their expensive grunge looks sitting, and sipping coffee. You almost never see any Black people in these places. I wonder why? Let me add one more place to the mix: Franklin Park -- a twin bar lounge on St. John's. It's disproportionately white. I have to admit I get really angry when I see this. There is a great sense of frustration because Black people are yet again being pushed out by other folk (the gentry) who can afford to pay higher prices. Now, I assume that these younger folk with fatter pockets are the 'progressive' types. But here is the irony: White progressives who have access to better jobs in the marketplace because of white privilege are doing more harm to Black people than any conservative ever will. Why can't you white progressive types keep your lily asses in Manhattan? Your progressive rhetoric sounds so hollow given the effect on the realty marketplace your economic choices have. If you sense an antagonism from the Black people who live around here it's because of this. You come in here with your smiles and your well-meaning attitudes about saving the planet, making it green, and all of that ego-fodder, but in reality you are making the world worse for most people. You truly are. If you want to make a better world, in addition to reducing your carbon-footprint, why not reduce your gentry-footprint as well? Realise that you got your job because of your connections, and be 'historically responsible'. Make a commitment not to despoil the Black ecosystem with your fat pocket. You guys have Park Slope now; why not stay there? Do you realize the damage you cause with every apartment you take in Brooklyn? Where are Black pelople going to go? You ever think about that? No, you don't. And that's why I can't stand most of you. Not because you're white, but because most of you are hypocrites, and you express your white progressive spiel for the same reason women wear makeup: to cover flaws and enhance your look. You probably voted for Obama and you let everyone know that you did. -
The Black ecosystem that consists of crime, unemployment, despondency, hopelessness. You mean that Black ecosystem? And what about the Black gentry? That is those Black folks who have, rather than complaining about the unfariness of white privilege, have actually tested out the new opportunties afforded people of all racial and ethnic groupings under the fair housing, equal opportunity legislation passed in the 60's as a result of their predecessors' hard struggles? And lo, many have succeeded! I know of a number of young Black professionals in Crown Heights who have even less use for the Black criminal element than do their white counterparts. Again, it's not just race, it's about who is willing to actually try, and who gives up without a fight.
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Many of the 'new' shops are black owned and consistently have a racially balanced group hanging out inside. Also, Franklin Park started to attract a more diverse crowd this summer. It's not fair to assume that black CH residents don't want newer places in the neighborhood (or want to preserve your so called 'black ecosystem'). Whether they're new arrivals or not, there is a large contingent of black CH residents that have more in common with the newer whites in the neighborhood. MHA, this is simply not a black/white issue. Also, while some people do benefit from connections for opportunities, the main reason they are able to find opportunities and meet connections is education. It's not fair to hold the color of a hard working person's skin against them. All boats can rise, but there needs to be an emphasis on education starting at the household level and in the community. I'm saddened that this is not the environment that my fellow brother and sisters grow up in.in the thick of it
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http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=55707For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Do you realized how utterly racist this sounds? If we replace the word WHITE with the word BLACK you have the black Brooklyn version of Archie Bunker. I remember when Fort Greene was virtually abandoned during the 1960's and 70's. What were once beautiful brownstones were covered in graffitti. Streets were unsafe and there were no local stores. Some brownstones were literally boarded up and abandoned. Gentrifiers (both White and Black) came in - perhaps due to cheap real estate and possibly capitalistic opportunities to open stores where none existed before - and started to turn the area around. But what prevented long term residents from this same commitment? OK - perhaps economics prevented some residents from buying real estate - but what then prevented these long term residents from taking pride in their community and homes - whether rented or owned? Oh I guess it was the roving gangs of suburban hoodlums that would come in and trash the area while local residents weren't looking.WHY am I always the meat in the middle of an imbecile sandwich?
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Subject: Re: Gentrification, the 'Gentry', and the Lay-Folk They Supp
MHA » I've been living on Sterling Place for nearly three years and in that time I've seen a marked change in the neighborhood. Namely, there are more white people. etc etc.....
wow. this is so racist. white people are not the problem. people (of all races and classes) who refuse to invest in community are. MHA, it seems that you're disappointment in an number of things but prejudiced tirades don't help anything and sound very racist and ignorant. BUT MORE FROM MS. JACOBS (as it regardless petty crime by kids/young adults..a big problem in CH) “In real life, only from ordinary adults of city sidewalks do children learn-if they learn at all-the first fundamentals of city life: People must take a modicum of public responsibility for each other even if they have no ties to each other. This is a lesson that nobody learns by being told. It is learned from the experience of having other people without ties of kinship or formal responsibility to you take a modicum of public responsibility for you.” 82 This is so true. Children imitate adult attitudes. This has nothing to do with race or income. The children that are either lauded for being exemplary citizens in the community or arrested before age 15 for being criminals learn this lesson at a young age. If children in cities observe adults who ignore their neighbors, and never reach out, they will do the same. Conversely, children who observe local adults do what Ms. Jacobs described are more likely to be the kid who gives you unsolicited advice about where to park so as to avoid a ticket, alternate side parking, directions, and what stores have the best sandwiches and which ones sell rotten meat...aka NEIGHBORS. What does this have to do with Crown Heights? Yo if I'm a criminal and I know that if I rob you that know one will do anything (out of fear, apathy or a combination of both) I will be more likely to rob you than if I know that people on the block know you and feel " a modicum of public responsibility for you even though they have no familial/personal ties to you. -
Yeah, MHA you wrong. Tell me, you flat-out racist or just wildly ignorant? If you and some old timers can't afford Bristens or the new coffee shops or a $6 beer at Franklin Park - that's on you. Sorry but it is. You know those places rent, don't you? And those rents determine how much they have to charge customers so that they can stay in business and turn a profit? Since you won't or can't afford to rent those spaces and set up appropriate businesses, would you rather they sit empty? People have got to stop hating on those who have more money than them. Or better put, they have to stop hating on people who legally make more money than them (you can hate on some narcotics kingpin all you want). If the current average salary for a person who works in NYC is $50K a year - you cannot begrudge someone for accepting that salary, even if you earn far less. And you know what else? That $50k is eaten up by the fact that their rents are going to be more expensive than yours. MHA if you're a longtime resident one of 2 things are happening. You own a building/brownstone in a desirable neighborhood and are sitting on property worth a small fortune. You can then choose to rent that property to Black families at way below current rent rates and you can use that property as collateral and open up businesses that are beneficial to your "Black ecosystem". If you are in fact doing so, then good on you. If you're not, and you're just sitting there in your palace, perhaps renting for the most coin possible, then you're just a hypocritical windbag. 2nd scenario - you're renting either a rent-controlled/stabilized apt that no newcomer, even a poor one, ever has a chance in hell of renting. Because you and your family know damn well that you are never, ever going to give up a 2-3 bdrm apt that you only pay a pittance for. In which case I have to ask you - Damn your rent's been basically frozen for ages and you haven't set aside a healthy nest egg yet? Or use that monthly cost savings to set up a business or get a college/graduate degree that leads to you and your family earning more so than you can afford to eat at Bristens? Did you use that savings to open and run a free daycare center for poor working mothers of Color or a school for Black youths? What the hell have you been doing for the Black ecosystem all this time? Just flapping your gums about White people? Real efficient use of your time there, pal.
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Damn all that writing and just now upon re-reading do I see that MHA only moved in 3 yrs ago. I'm dumb. As a dumb as a person can't find an affordable cup of coffee or a meal and drinks at 95 South or Lily and Fig, or 3Ds or La Higienica )or whatever its called now), or Kelso's Cafe, or Liga Sports Bar or any of the many bodegas and stores that are owned/operated by Black and Brown people on Franklin Ave.
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<<< gets popcorn, and quitely wonders if MHA is JAH's dad.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Subject: Black Anger = Imbecility, Racism and Ignorance? Hmmmmm....
"...those Black folks who have, rather than complaining about the unfariness of white privilege.." Capt. Planet, what makes you think I limit my actions to complaining? Believe me, I am a very active member of this community, and what positive changes have occurred, I believe that my actions are a part of that change. I am pointing out what I believe to be the other edge of the sword of gentrification -- i.e -- that white privilege pushes out Black people, and to deny that reality is to deem the world is only rosy because those with money make it so. Have you ever thought of the folks who have been living here for years making legitimate attempts at keeping their neighborhoods clean? You think you have to be a gentrifier to want clean streets? Take Franklin Park, do you know how many complaints the Black tenants of the brownstone it abuts have made about that place? They have complained about the noise, and the cigarette stench that they have to put up with almost every day. The police have turned deaf ears and blind eyes to those quality of life infractions. In contrast take I95, the Black-owned club on Franklin Avenue: Do you realise how often they are subject to police regulation? Why is that? If there is going to be regulation of one, why not the other? I will tell you why: Because the ownership of one is Black, and the other is white. The patronage of one is Black, and the other is predominantly white, that's why. And to say it has something to do with 'gentrification' is disingenuous. It has everything to do with race. So yeah, dismiss me as racist or an imbecile, or even Archie Bunkeresque. It won't be the first time an angry Black person is called names just because he/she is angry. In fact, history has taught us that to do so is racist. And the Black criminals you refer to, have you ever thought about why they exist? They exist because of a police force that will repeatedly say they are doing something about it, but instead they are being tolerant of the criminal element. You and I know let one white woman be accosted by any of these young guys on the street, and see how quickly a change will come. Have a conversation with police officers who patrol the neighborhood. They'll let you know that as long as these local thugs leave the whitefolks alone, everything is okay. Gee whiz Clayfilms, I guess I am a racist just because you say I am. Go figure. I didn't know it was that easy. Ad hominem responses are not rational, sir/madam, they are just noise. I live right beside a drug spot. I've been living there for 3 years, and I have consistently told the police about the activity. I've heard it directly from the Crow Hill Community Association that for years they too have made complaints about the criminal element on my block. Tell me, what prevents police action? You know what does? My complaints, and the complaints of other Black people who have been living here for years. We don't mind the improvement of the neighborhood, but why must it come when white folks open their mouths? Why is my life, and my attempts at improving my neighborhood not lauded, and not valued, but when the gentry come in, implicit in their actions is that people who have not been here for years have not been trying to make change? Every day I have to deal with garbage tossed out the windows of my neighbors. Everyday I am picking up dogshit and diapers that my neighbors casually throw out the window. I even change their garbage bags when they refuse to do it. I don't have to be a member of the gentry to do this. And when I make complaints via 311 or even 911, nothing happens. I bet you, one of you whitefolks do the very same thing and see what happens. Why is that? That isn't supposed to make me angry? There is a difference between racism and critique. I am not a racist. I resent being called one. If you want to stifle debate by throwing out that word, then go right ahead. I made mention of white people moving into the neighborhood to make a nuanced point: The great majority of Black people cannot afford to! Just minutes ago I witnessed a white dude with his father move into an apartment that I know firsthand a Black family was trying to move into, and the owner of the property is Black. The person who was trying to move into it kept on getting the runaround from the owner, and lo, here is some white dude from Jersey moving in. Now, she has been living in the neighborhood for years, and she has been a pillar here for years. She works in the neighborhood as well, but what will prevent her from moving in: some Obama-voting white dude with more money in his pocket. All I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of gentrification. And when the same white dude gets tired of these 'niggas' (as they like to call themselves) selling 'trees' , all he has to do is open his mouth and they will disappear. White life is considered more valuable then Black life, and to say such is not the case is disingenuous. And that's why the Black woman who owns the property deferred to the white dude and his rich papa - who are not paying more rent by the way -- because she also presumes that there is more value to whiteness than to blackness. Yeah, I know this is anecdote, but there is truth to subjective experience. -
Actually Whynot_31, I frequent all of the places you mentioned, and I am none of the things you presume me to be, and if we are going to devolve into name calling, then I really don't want to get into a debate with you. I don't think being called racist or ignorant helps here, even if that is how you feel. The problem with discourse in America is that it always devolves into name-calling, and that solves nothing. It prevents problem solving, actually. If you cannot disagree without calling someone a name, then you're not debating, you're arguing. I go to Franklin Park all the time, I'm often in Bristen's, Breukelen, Kelso's and other places. I'm not 'hating' on anyone. I'm simply pointing out the contradictions in gentrification. Also, my initial email about white folks moving in was tongue-in-cheek, and I guess most of all of y'all just didn't get the joke. That's cool.
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MHA, I think you are confusing me with a different poster. I'm the guy eating popcorn. But, even though I think you are mistaking me for a different poster, I'll treat you as if you've "sort of asked", and I'll "sort of answer". I have never been in Bristens, Kelsos, or Breukelen. I think I haven't been to Bristens or Breukelen b/c I don't drink coffee, but its good to know they are black owned. Kelsos has been on my list for a while, but I always end up eating at the Indian place on the same block. I've been to Franklin Park twice, but found it to be too loud. When I was at I-95, I found it didn't have a big beer selection, so I didn't go back. I could list all of the places I go to locally that I think are non-white owned, but I don't have that much time. Or interest. P.S. After your last post, I've decided you are not JAH's dad.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Subject: Re: Black Anger = Imbecility, Racism and Ignorance? Hmmmmm..
MHA » I bet you, one of you whitefolks do the very same thing and see what happens. Why is that? ... There is a difference between racism and critique. I am not a racist. I resent being called one. If you want to stifle debate by throwing out that word, then go right ahead... ... some Obama-voting white dude with more money in his pocket.
MHA, as an Obama-voting whitefolk, I want to thank you from the bottom of my money-filled pocket for your enlightened observation about the difference between racism and critique and the debate-stifling effect of throwing out words without knowing the humans being you're labeling. (Ooops, hypocritical me, I just publicly announced that I voted for Obama. My bad.)Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -
Subject: Re: Black Anger = Imbecility, Racism and Ignorance? Hmmmmm..
MHA » Gee whiz Clayfilms, I guess I am a racist just because you say I am. Go figure. I didn't know it was that easy. Ad hominem responses are not rational, sir/madam, they are just noise.
i apologize for calling you a racist..thanks for taking the time to respond in a civil manner. however, i do think that you're blaming the wrong people. from what you describe, it seems that the people at fault are: 1. the police commissioner 2. the local police 3. your "neighbors" kudos to you for being involved with the local community board. i pray that more people like you proactively initiate community involvement and continue to care and advocate for change. but again, white residents who have moved into crown heights over the past 5 years are not the problem. but it seems that their presence is just exposing the lack of consistent policing (with regard to quality of life crimes), and true community.MHA » Just minutes ago I witnessed a white dude with his father move into an apartment that I know firsthand a Black family was trying to move into, and the owner of the property is Black.
whose fault is that? surely not the white guy from jersey. the landlord sounds like the prejudiced party. but maybe he's just been burned by alot of black diaper tossing tenants and that poor upstanding women just has the misfortune of being labeled as such by him. or maybe he's just filled with self-hatred. -
MHA, I think you just plain miss the old "black ecosystem". When crime, unemployoment, drugs, etc. were just an accepted part of the landscape, when police harrassment was predictable and it could all be conveniently blamed on "the man". A lot has happened since then. The man has crawled back into his cave, and black folks are expected to be part of the community. Calling 911 (a telephone service, hence color blind) works the same for everybody. Folks know that you have to call more than once to get attention. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, and traditionally black communities have been the least squeaky. To change that image and reality, then black folks will just have to get a lot more involved. As a member of the community board in Crown Heights, I can see it happening. A lot of black folks are starting to get it. They're not taking the crap they used to take, they're demanding that their elected officials and police commander deliver the goods and they're not backing down. Perhaps you're one of them. it's really cool. And it's not the same old Crown Heights.
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BoogieKnight » If you and some old timers can't afford Bristens or the new coffee shops or a $6 beer at Franklin Park - that's on you.
$4 Modello on mineS. It's the only way I can afford to order from Bristens. -
MHA..They can tell the difference between Archie Bunker and George Jefferson at 311 or the police dept? Whitie's call will get a street sweep for "tree" salesmen? I would love to write more but I am right in the middle of watching Blackula! Soul train will be on soon so I better hurry. Those big apt bldgs on EParkway where built for a whole different world.When the original occupants moved out the complaining started and has not stopped. Italians,Irish,Asians, Germans,Jews,Arabs,Caribs we all get are chance to be complained about.It's part of the NY experience. You should read about some Brighton Beach history, Things moved so fast that "those people" refers to 3 groups within 15 years all of them unwanted by the locals.
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MHA - you've been living in the hood for 3 years and you're trying to claim that it belongs to you and what ever people you think you're a part of? Please, tell me about the olden' days of 2007. I'm all ears.in the thick of it
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Bristen's is black-owned and, in my experience, has a very racially mixed clientele. the grocery on franklin and st johns -- Nam's fruit market -- has been in the neighborhood longer than i have, and i've been here longer than you. their vegetables and fruit are fresher than anything else i've seen in the immediate area and no more expensive.Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit
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Man the knucklehead teenagers are w/o a doubt the worst part of this neighborhood I don't fear them as their bodies aren't fully developed, but my girlfriend has already fallen into the cycle of fear (she fears them -> they see it -> some harass her -> she fears them more) What the hell are some nosy old ladies gonna do to keep kids who mug and sexually assault in check but call some jaded cops? I don't want to be a part of that cycle. I actually have really grown to like and interact with the older folks, people with families etc on my block, but the damn teenagers... if you're not involved in the lifestyles of crime and materialism they're been indoctrinated into, at best you're a nobody (like me), at worst you're a future victim (like my girlfriend). My rent is cheap, but it will never be cheap enough for this. I am looking forward to leaving CH.[
Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Hey CTK, why don't you attend the next meeting of the Crow Hill association? Their main focus is the Franklin Avenue shopping strip and I'm sure you'd find a lot of sympathy for your concerns. Crow Hill has been instrumental in cleaning up Franklin and would love to talk about how to get rid of the criminal element you cite. Their website is: http://www.crowhillcommunity.org/ They've also started a blog to help exchange ideas. You can access it from their website.
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Capt. Planet » Hey CTK, why don't you attend the next meeting of the Crow Hill association? Their main focus is the Franklin Avenue shopping strip and I'm sure you'd find a lot of sympathy for your concerns. Crow Hill has been instrumental in cleaning up Franklin and would love to talk about how to get rid of the criminal element you cite. Their website is: http://www.crowhillcommunity.org/ They've also started a blog to help exchange ideas. You can access it from their website.
I will check it out.[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Wow. I am really surprised to read the reactions to MHA's post. I am of the school that says its not possible to be racist against white people, as being racist is not just about negative generalizations by involves power differentials. But also, a lot of MHAs points are right and important. It is important to think about the impact of gentrification on the longer term residents. I've been renting in CH for about 4 years. I thought I was getting a decent rent when I moved in but found out others in the building had been paying half what we pay. The landlords have a lot of incentive to get the long term folks out, make some 'renovations' and double the rent. But MHA, I don't think that this phenomenon will be solved by individual choices, such as one white person choosing to move to Park Slope instead of CH. And let's be honest - MANY white people don't have a lot of money so its not like they can just choose to live where they want. I think things can only change when there are real social movements for keeping/expanding affordable housing; movements to raise wages through unions and legislation; movements to expand public transportation with more lines and more affordable fares, etc. I don't mean this as a cop-out but really don't see how individual actions about where to live or shop can really change these dynamics.
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Community standards are hard to overlook as part of this post. CTK says his girlfriend is afraid and he looks forward to leaving the area. Sad. In better soc/econ areas intimidation takes place as well but is responded to differently by everybody involved. Teen boys no matter what color are going to do impulsive things.The reaction is what is so different. In a word fear. Anger and outrage take a backseat in poorer areas. The nosy old lady is afraid to get involved,the police are afraid, the victim,and the parents are afraid. As you walk down the street you can see the absence of any civic thought from litter, a subway seat,holding a door.loud and vulgar speech. Listen for a really loud radio in your apt bldg, the person doing it is inconsiderate and the people not responding are numb and afraid to even start to address people for fear of something far short of a civil exchange. My opinion is most of this has little to do with race but standards and expectations. Trace back the origin of the discarded chicken box and bones on the street or subway platform and you will find your problem. It's not race but intellect.
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I beg to differ about you cannot be racist against white people. Racism is hatred based on stereotypes (usually wrong) which are associated with one race. Largely due to no interaction or actual knowledge of said race. Please refer to the statements: "Realise that you got your job because of your connections, and be 'historically responsible'. . . . You guys have Park Slope now; why not stay there?. . . And that's why I can't stand most of you." Sounds a lot like hated based on a stereotype that each white person coming to CH is a "trust fund" baby with just gobs of cash and a postion they did not have to compete for or struggle to maintain. If that were the case, why not go the easy route and go to an already gentrified neighborhood? To a hipper neighborhood? I actually had an older relative that since passed that lived on Sterling back in the early '60's. She fled the area, despite her low rent and spacious apartment, due to the increasing crime rate and deteriorating conditions. Yes, she rented and finding a comparable rent was difficult (ultimately ended up moving to North Bay Ridge/Sunset Park at a higher rent). She just got tired of reporting crimes that fell on deaf ears, trying to keep the front of her building clean (no, she was not the janitor but took pride in her home) against a never ending tide of garbage and having to travel further and further to find a market. She was also more and more fearful for her safety. Rather than stay and fight, she just left. Given her age - I could appreciate that. As I can appreciate MHAs complaint of where are the BLACK people to go - lets broaden that to include POOR people and elderly people since those are the groups who have limited options for improving their incomes and housing choices. One of the biggest problems facing PEOPLE in NYC is affordable housing and quality of life. An individual is just one voice, but individuals who act as a community harness the power of numerous voices. Rather than be exclusionary (based on racist notions) why not strive to find solutions for the community as a whole? Try to welcome change that ENHANCES the neighborhood rather than wanting to stagnate and isolate.WHY am I always the meat in the middle of an imbecile sandwich?
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