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I would not surprise me if this event relapsed into being a sad, yearly display of violence
When has this parade not degenerated into a cauldron of violence and disorder?
"Tommorow's another god damn day"
Bunk--The Wire
Bunk--The Wire
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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homeowner said:
I think there are some simple fixes that could change the parade for the better. Here is my list in no particular order:1) The parade should return to its roots and make floats available for steel drums and bands only. If someone wants to perform, they need to have a band on the float PLAYING MUSIC, and not the flatbeds with stacks of speakers and a loop of the same song. They could do something similar to the Thanksgiving Day parade where performances of recorded music occur in front of the reviewing stands only.
2)The parade organizers should develop their own volunteer security group that marches with the parade in "event staff" t-shirts to keep spectators on the sidewalks and off the parade routes. This allows the police to focus on crowd control in key areas.
3) The police need to do a better job of allowing people to cross Eastern Parkway and not make it so the only way for pedestrians to get from one side of the avenue to another is to walk a half a mile, enter a pen, stand for 45 minutes and then get told they have to crosss within the next 30 seconds or it will be another hour before they can cross again.
4) The police and the organizers must jointly announce a zero tolerance policy for weapons and drugs at the parade. People should be told in advance that they will be detained, ticketed or arrested if they are caught selling, using or carrying those items on Eastern Parkway.
5) No hats and bats period. Its a parade.
6) All advertising for parade events including J'Overt, the kids parade, the steel drum competition and the parade itself should include langauge about expectations (ie. "Don't bring alcohol onto the avenue. If you are caught drinking along the roadway you will be ticketed and possibly arrested").
7) Better coordination needs to occur between the police and the parade organizers. Start earlier and work together insted of one side dictating what will or will not happen.
8 ) Building owners along the parkway should be told that if they are serving alcohol is must be consumed on their property (inside the fencelines).
So help me, I could not have this better.
"Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah! -
X-brooklynite said:
I would not surprise me if this event relapsed into being a sad, yearly display of violence
When has this parade not degenerated into a cauldron of violence and disorder?
There's no evidence that there was any more violence that weekend b/c of the parade than there is on a usual summer holiday weekend.
People need to stop this lie.
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
By spreading another one?
There were certainly more shootings that weekend than any other weekend this summer. That's a simple fact.
If you want to argue they weren't related to the parade, that's a more difficult assertion to prove either way.
It's also a fact that police are anxious about this event. I don't see this as evidence of racism, but rather because of the reputation the parade has developed, at least some of which I expect is on merit, even if for no other reason than that it does attract enough people to EP to swell the population by an order of magnitude during its course. The fact that these people are often inebriated doesn't help.
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eastbloc said:
By spreading another one?There were certainly more shootings that weekend than any other weekend this summer. That's a simple fact.
If you want to argue they weren't related to the parade, that's a more difficult assertion to prove either way.
Actually, after that weekend I looked at the shooting mapsthat the papers had put together to analyze where the shootings occurred and whether they could be tied to the parade itself. My brief analysis showed only two of the 24 shootings that were initially reported for that weekend occured on the parade route itself during the parade. Another five occurred in neighborhoods directly adjacent to the parade in the hours after the parade was officially over. An addtional three shootings occurred in the same neighborhood-adjacent area on either Friday/ Saturday/Sunday. And there was one other Fri/Sat neighborhood-adjacent shooting reported with no victim (shots fired in the air?).
Now, this begs the question as to whether those people who shot folks that weekend in places like Queens, the Bronx, and Staten Island were visitors who were here for the parade, or were people who had attended the parade or parade events then went home and decided to bust a cap in someone. But on their face, of the 52 original shootings that occurred, the majority of them did not occur during the parade or in the general vicinity of the parade or parade related activities.
Also, there was at least one weekend this June where the police recorded over thirty shootings in NYC.
The problem here is that people are sold a story "WI Day Parade creates violent gun battles" and folks run with that. It gets repeated so many times that its accepted at face value. But it isn't true.
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homeowner said:
The problem here is that people are sold a story "WI Day Parade creates violent gun battles" and folks run with that. It gets repeated so many times that its accepted at face value. But it isn't true.^ ^ ^ ^
eastbloc said:
It's also a fact that police are anxious about this event. I don't see this as evidence of racism, but rather because of the reputation the parade has developed, at least some of which I expect is on merit,
So the part that's not on merit? That would be racism or bigotry or some other unacceptable logic.
The NYPD facebook thread was rank with bigotry and ignorance, and should be a scandal given that they're who we trust to enforce the laws and treat communities fairly.
But they don't.
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
You've either not been alive very long or paying too much attention if you think any cross-section of any population isn't going to be rife with ignorance.
Or maybe you're just one of those people who are constantly scandalized.
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Ah yes, the 'everybody does it so get over it' non-defense.
1. It matters far more if a public servant entrusted with virtually ultimate power on the streets, like the NYPD, has bigots as opposed to say me or you.
2. All bigotry is not equal. Like, say that of the privileged.
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
LOL. The police are privileged?
I suppose you're one of those people who thinks if you make $65k you're rich and probably not paying enough taxes.
And as to the notion that the underprivileged are entitled to bigotry, well, every bigot says that about themselves. After all, the poor oppressed Nazis were only trying to defend themselves from the usurous clutches of international finance Jewry, right?
Those are some principles you've got there. Bravo.
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The police are unquestionably privileged. They're privileged to stop whomever they please, frisk them, harass them, arrest them, and even shoot them if they feel the least bit threatened. They are an armed force occupying our city.
If that army is biased against particular racial or ethnic groups, or against people who dress or talk differently than they do, then it can (and does) make life hell for those groups or individuals. No group which has as much power as the cops have can be allowed to be as bigoted as the rest of society. The rest of society doesn't carry guns, mace, nightsticks and badges.
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I''m still trying to think of what groups would need to be part of a coalition in order for it to be powerful enough to get something done.
I'm also trying to imagine why any sane person would agree to lead or form the coalition in light of how fraught the issues are.
These are the types of problems that paralyze our society, and cause the various groups (police, community boards, advertisers, etc) to "act out" because they believe they are not being heard, and the parade no longer serves their needs.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
eastbloc said:
LOL. The police are privileged?I suppose you're one of those people who thinks if you make $65k you're rich and probably not paying enough taxes.
And as to the notion that the underprivileged are entitled to bigotry, well, every bigot says that about themselves. After all, the poor oppressed Nazis were only trying to defend themselves from the usurous clutches of international finance Jewry, right?
Those are some principles you've got there. Bravo.
What in god's name are you talking about?
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
Boygabriel said:
What in god's name are you talking about?Your statement that "All bigotry is not equal. Like, say that of the privileged." Which appears aimed to rationalize bigotry when it's exhibited by the "non-privileged", whatever that means, or make it somehow less perfidious.
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booklaw said:
The police are unquestionably privileged. They're privileged to stop whomever they please, frisk them, harass them, arrest them, and even shoot them if they feel the least bit threatened. They are an armed force occupying our city.LOL. "Your" city? Are you part of some native American insurrectionary organization?
I pay taxes here and I vote, and the police don't have any privilege that I don't approve of. They're patrolling _my_ city, in order to enforce laws that my representatives to the elected bodies of this country have legislated.
Perhaps they're "privileged" in the sense that their job comes with certain rights granted to people who are not police officers, in the same way that I am "privileged" to walk into my office building. They need those privileges to do their job.
A job that is not particularly well-paid or prestigious, and where a bunch of yahoos who think it's "their city" don't so much as think twice about being grateful for the relative order that exists thanks to their presence.
If you think you could do better, why not join the police force? It's open to anyone, for better or for worse. Might make more of a difference in the world than posting ignorant shit on a BBS.
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If anyone here is posting "ignorant shit", it is you. This is no more your city than it is mine. I referred to it as "our city". You refer to it as "my city."
The cops' job does not "require" them to shoot innocent, unarmed people. It doesn't "require" them to roust people just because of the color of their skin.
If you do not value your civil rights, that's your prerogative. But don't complain when other people value the civil rights guaranteed by our... yes, "our", federal and state Constitutions, and those other people... myself included... object to cops trampling on those Constitutional rights.
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booklaw said:
If anyone here is posting "ignorant shit", it is you. This is no more your city than it is mine. I referred to it as "our city". You refer to it as "my city."The cops' job does not "require" them to shoot innocent, unarmed people. It doesn't "require" them to roust people just because of the color of their skin.
If you do not value your civil rights, that's your prerogative. But don't complain when other people value the civil rights guaranteed by our... yes, "our", federal and state Constitutions, and those other people... myself included... object to cops trampling on those Constitutional rights.
I don't claim to speak for anyone else. I don't know who the hell you think you're speaking for when you say "our". Seems like the height of arrogance to me.
And the only rights being trampled in this thread are those guaranteed to the police officers by the First Amendment.
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guaranteed?
Nope.
Allow me to insert a link to some "light reading" that discusses the ability of a public employer to curtail the rights of its employees, specifically police officers.
It is a long article (about 30 pages plus cites), but it basically points out that the courts have ruled that some rights may be "curtailed" or "balanced" when the statements or actions affect the employer's ongoing ability to serve the public; The concept is often known as the Public Concern Doctrine.
http://www.traviesolaw.com/CM/Articles/Travieso_article.pdf
After this, we get to go back to talking about how to -or whether to- modify the parade, right?
Carry on.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
And I don't necessarily disagree with that. My point was more that we were discussing whether ignorance can exist in the police department. I believe it exists there much as it exists in any population.
I also believe that most cops aren't out there to shoot innocent people or "roust" anyone. At least, I don't witness that happening with regularity, and when it does happen, people always seem to make a fuss, which tells me that the cops _don't_ have the _right_ to do any of those things either.
And I won't argue with the right of a cop to shoot when he feels threatened. I don't believe they take that responsibility lightly. We just had an officer killed on duty responding to a robbery here in Brooklyn the other day. If he had the right to shoot innocent people, why didn't he shoot his killer? I guess he was exercising some sort of discretion. Imagine that.
Then there are those who see the police as an "occupying army," which is a very crude way of revealing that their world view is more inclined to simplified, emotional extremes painted in broad strokes rather than any attempt at understanding human behavior.
It's foolishness.
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eastbloc said:
Then there are those who see the police as an "occupying army," which is a very crude way of revealing that their world view is more inclined to simplified, emotional extremes painted in broad strokes rather than any attempt at understanding human behavior.It's foolishness.
The fact that you can be so dismissive of people's feelings that the police are not there to help them but instead come into their neighborhoods with preconceived notions about guilt, innocence and whether people are deserving of protection seems equally simplistic and lacking an understanding of human behavior.
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Perhaps a lack of empathy, but certainly not a lack of understanding.
By your own assessment, I'm guilty of being dismissive of feelings, not facts.
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The police argue that they are not free to do whatever they choose, to whomever they choose.
They argue that they use a great deal of restraint before they use deadly force, and are more accountable to more masters than in the past.
They point out that they shoot far less often than they have in the past, and that racial bias is not evident in who they shoot.
Here's the latest big report on such matters: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/268431-2010-nypd-firearms-discharge-report.html
Despite such progress, I think we can all agree we would like the police to continue to improve; we just disagree on how we would go about it.
For better or worse, we are silly to think the NYPD will not remain a major factor in influencing how the parade plays out in 2012.
Anyone think anything will change?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
eastbloc said:
Your statement that "All bigotry is not equal. Like, say that of the privileged." Which appears aimed to rationalize bigotry when it's exhibited by the "non-privileged", whatever that means, or make it somehow less perfidious.Wrong.
homeowner said:
The fact that you can be so dismissive of people's feelings that the police are not there to help them but instead come into their neighborhoods with preconceived notions about guilt, innocence and whether people are deserving of protection seems equally simplistic and lacking an understanding of human behavior.It can also be summed up as 'racial and/or socioeconomic privilege'.
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
ah, but therein lies the problem:
Every side genuinely believes every other side fails to understand the issues as a result of some inherent privilege, bias or deficit.
It is all thinly veiled accusations of "ignorance", and the rhetoric gets old.
Even though we may really dislike "them", we can not effectively shut "those people" up.
We can not prevent them from influencing how the parade will be perceived in retrospect, nor can we prevent them from influencing how the parade will play out next year.
They are at the table, and -in the vast majority of circumstances- we ultimately have to listen to them and engage them in the effort to try and mitigate the problem.
Ultimately, we can insist that no one is responsible for the actions of a guy who get intoxicated and fire his 9MM, except the actual guy.
....but there are things we can do to try to keep him home, right?
There are times we need to realize that we all may need to give up some fun/privileges in the hope that by doing so, the event will be less attractive to said individuals, right?
Are we allowed to posit such ideas regardless of whatever socio-economic status, race, etc. we may possess?
Are we brave enough to try to change an event despite the insults that will inevitably cast our way?
If not, should we just enjoy the parade? Should we leave town as many people already do? Should we make sure we don't have to work that shift as a cop or at the ER?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
"both sides do it" doesn't make both sides wrong.
you have to actually evaluate, you know, the merits of an specific argument.
YOU get tired of the rhetoric, but as we've established, not all people are middle class white males.
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
So, only people who convince everyone that they have no bias are entitled to an opinion?
Is there anyone in NYC who could dream of meeting such a standard?
Likewise, does this mean that people are free to dismiss the opinions of other people if they can convince themselves they are misinformed or have ulterior motives?
whynot_31 said:
We are all free to focus on what motivates the various entities that seek to change the nature and reputation of the parade.Depending on who is doing the analysis and the level of simplicity of the conclusions:
....the Chamber of Commerce is motivated by "bringing money into the city".
...The Elected officials are motivated "by getting re-elected".
...the police are motivated "by racism".
...the sanitation workers are motivated by "laziness".
...people who live on the parkway are "elitist".
...folks who run the sponsor the parade are opposed to limits because of "denial".
We could type for hours and conclude that no one is motivated by what they should be, such as "having a safe/fun parade and weekend for everyone: kids, families, adults".
What we may need is a coalition of organizations and groups. This technique might insulate them from some of the above name calling and allow them to actually implement some changes.
If they are not successful, it would not surprise me if this event relapsed into being a sad, yearly display of violence and the various groups taking extreme positions.
It could be like the 90s all over again.
um, we have a problem.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
So, only people who convince everyone that they have no bias are entitled to an opinion?
I never implied anything close to this.
Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org -
Boygabriel said:
whynot » So, only people who convince everyone that they have no bias are entitled to an opinion?
I never implied anything close to this.
Excellent. Let's get to work.
Correctly or not, lots of folks seem to believe that the West Indian Labor Day parade plays a big role in the weekend's violence, and I'd like to make sure everyone gets a chance to be heard.
Some police officers have already made their opinions known on a Facebook page. I've provided the link above and encourage you to read the comments with an open mind, and see whether any of the suggestions might be able to effectively distance this parade from the weekend's violence, and thus retain as much public support as possible.
It may help to imagine ourselves as the head of a factory, that has a very large and powerful union to deal with. ...one which we do not completely control. Let's realize that the police will act up if we try to dismiss their opinions, no matter how much we dislike them.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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