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Hello All, My wife and I will most likely be closing on a condo in Crown Heights on 943 Saint Marks Avenue. We are moving from Harlem and my wife works pretty late at a restaurant in midtown. The subway stops on Kingston C or 3 will be her means home, both are 6 blocks from our address. Could you guys offer any wisdom on what line to ride or avoid at which time? Ladies, specifically, what do you do to keep safe? Thanks so much.
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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I would SERIOUSLY reconsider. At best, rent an apartment first, so that if you don't like it you won't be tied up in trying to sell the place.
Kingston isn't BAD, but IME its not great either... definitely not a place I personally would want to buy a place, if I had a wife + was planning to have any kids.
Here is a pretty long thread about a place not far and not much different...
I would stay west of Bedford and south of Atlantic... that region is more expensive for a reason
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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The particular block you're on has its ups and downs. It's kind of an unusual block, with the angle parking and the cul-de-sacs. Kingston itself is relatively quiet. You're close to Brower Park, which is nice when there's not a turf war going on. You're close to the Children's Museum. You are also close to the Albany Homes, and Albany Ave, which is not so nice.
I would go 2/3 over C for late nights. You can take the 4/5 and transfer at Franklin for one stop, too. I'd stay away from Albany, but Kingston at night might be a little too quiet and dimly lit to be super comfortable.
Finally, I'd consider CTK's advice while there is time. Unless you're getting an absolutely rip-roaring below-market deal, the long-term fortunes of the area you're looking at are far from certain. A few blocks make a pretty big difference, especially when those few blocks put you right at the foothills of the projects.
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As a homeowner on that block, I have a different perspective (I'll send you an email with more details).
You may want to check out these recent threads, which are specifically about Kingston Avenue: http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/crown-heights-1#post-755370 and http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/lincoln-place-and-kingston-ave-whats-it-like
And to answer your transit question, I have walked home alone from both of those stations up until midnight, though, like Eastbloc said, the walk from Eastern Parkway feels safer. For the first four blocks through Park Place, there are usually people out and at least one business open. Your wife can also get an escort from Brooklyn Bike Patrol (from either station) if she feels unsafe, though the women I know on the block haven't mentioned any issues while they've been commuting, walking their dogs, etc.
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That block in neither particularly safe or quiet, for that matter. During the summer months there are large illegal block parties almost every weekend and even during the week people are out in the park partying & making lots of noise until 2 or 3 in the morning. Multiple buildings are under police surveillance due to a variety of illegal activities (drugs, gambling, fighting) though all this appears to have done is moved these activities into the park, which is right outside of that building. It's sad because this block has so much potential, but for right now there are too many bad elements and too little police & community involvement. If your wife is going to be walking home by herself late at night on a regular basis, I would reconsider moving to this particular block.
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I agree that if you can still reconsider, you should. I would also suggest that in your future search for an apartment to buy, you do this due diligence BEFORE you make the offer!
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I"m a 28 yr old white male and I've been living in the building for almost 1 year and its been fine...coming home late either on the A/C or 3/4 train. The building residents are a VERY mixed bunch and none of the women living in the building have ever complained about harassment. The neighborhood has rough edges but no one bothers you unless you instigate (which is basically true anywhere in NYC). The block parties are not that bad and are definitely not every weekend.
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For the record, I wasn't trying to discourage the OP from buying for safety reasons. I don't think you're all that much safer on Franklin than on Kingston.
I just know how much easier it is to buy than to sell, especially in areas that make a lot of potential buyers nervous, and all of those things (proximity to Albany/Albany Homes/class and racial make-up of the nabe/Crown Heights in general) have that effect on at least a significant portion of the potential market, and _should_ have a commensurate effect on the purchase price.
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I've lived on the block for seven years now and my husband and I have two small children. While it's true that the park at the center of the block can get rowdy on summer evenings, the block has dramatically improved in recent years. I no longer hesitate to encourage friends to move to the block.
Since I have young kids, I'm not out walking at night much but I generally try not to walk home by myself after 11 since foot traffic diminishes around that time of night. I also prefer the walk from the 3 train on Eastern Parkway since I know which bodegas are open in case I have any trouble. But again, I've lived here seven years and have never had any trouble.
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That's an interesting point about resale, eastbloc. I think if it's a long-term buy and the block, and surrounding blocks, continue to improve the way they have been, then the proximity of the projects won't be a deal breaker. Not comparing Crown Heights to Boerum Hill, but this NYT article seems to suggest as much: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/nyregion/brownstone-brooklyn-between-2-housing-projects.html. Thoughts? I wonder how the much more stable block of Prospect between Kingston and Albany has fared in that sense.
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I certainly don't view housing projects as inherently undesirable or sources of blight, and I think Boerum Hill is an excellent example that supports that case. The truth is that even there they do bring down the property value, just as being near churches and schools and even subways.
Someone buying there should be aware of the relative value if for no other reason than that they do not end up underwater in the event they have to sell. And of course you want your equity to build to a nest egg over time, rather than have to climb out of a hole. This is true even if you plan to spend the rest of your life in a neighborhood as I do.
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I lived in this area for a year, and as a small white woman (who isn't unfamiliar with living and working in areas that are a bit...rough around the edges), I had to put in my two cents on the matter.
Personally I hated living here. I worked late and walked home from the 3, but I always felt extremely uneasy about it - it gets dead quiet out there, and not every street is well lit. Many nights I ended up taking cabs home. Even during the day there were some areas and blocks I felt uncomfortable walking down; I've never been attacked but myself and my roommate at the time were routinely harassed and catcalled, loudly and lewdly, on the street.
I appreciate that Crown Heights has become much safer over the past few years, and that more and more young professionals are moving to the area. But it's still not a great neighborhood and probably won't be for years. I was relieved to leave it and move someplace where I feel comfortable.
If I were you, I would reconsider.
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I have to disagree when I see a neighborhood the size of Crown Heights painted with such a broad brush. Especially when I know how much differentiation there can be even from block to block.
Don't extrapolate your experience to be broader than it is.
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All the man asked was which subway line to ride at night.
On another note, they are moving from HARLEM. Have any of you ever been there? It still has some of its own problems. Depending on where they are moving from, this may be a nice step in the right direction. BTW, I live east of Bedford and I am happy to say that I am pleased with my home, my neighbors, and the continuing addition of new families and the diversity that they bring. But, as I am not white or skinny, my opinions are probably shaded (pun intended) a bit differently than those of a different background.
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I am a female that lives in that building, and I agree that the walk from the 3 train on Kingston feels safer than the walk from the C. However, the C train is faster, so I almost always take the C home anyway and have not had any problems. I just try to stay alert to my surroundings and carry a little something in case an issue comes up. Also, I have dogs that I am usually out walking between 11pm-1am and I have never had anything other than pleasant exchanges in the area. Realistically, there are some streets and blocks that are better avoided if you want to play it safe, but that it true of almost any neighborhood in New York City.
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"I certainly don't view housing projects as inherently undesirable or sources of blight"
I love how brave you are to say that. Youd take a evening stroll past there with some buddies?
I think not.Lol...i can smell the white guilt from here!
You are allowed to be honest about your feelings, eastbloc.
You wont be accused of anything if you consider that housing project scary to live near.
IMHO -
I just don't get it. I think the first question is, why are they leaving Harlem? Personally, I like Harlem better than CH. It has its problems, but there's a lot more going on too.
Plus I just don't see the point in even considering living in a place where safety is a potential issue. "Its not that bad" "Just be street smart" etc are unacceptable IMO.
There are a lot of places in Queens off of various subway lines that are similarly priced or slightly more expensive with zero safety issues. Depending on what train you are near, faster to Midtown too. Even if the place is a smoking deal, I am not sure it will be worth the potential headaches/disappointment - especially if the OP is unhappy in Harlem.
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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I've always thought of housing projects as being:
"they are what they are"
Meaning, a nearby project will provide housing to those who can adhere to the terms of the leases Granted this not a very high standard, but NYCHA has a pretty long waiting list of people to use when/if a tenant violates the lease.
Originally, most NYCHA projects were for the working poor and the disabled.
Turnover was rare.
Now, most of the units that become vacant are filled with people who are not working and/or have substantial needs. This creates a lot of turnover because these folks fail to pay their rent and/or get evicted for other reasons; Housing alone will not solve their/our problems.
Lots of turnover results in no sense of community/accountability. ...people tend to be inconsiderate and criminal to each other when they think consequences are unlikely.
It does, however, save the city $ in shelter costs:
Subject: Prioritizing Homeless Families for Public Housing and Housing Vouchers
With the number of children and adults in the city’s shelter system on the rise, City Council Speaker Christine Quinn proposed prioritizing 2,500 public housing apartments and 2,500 housing vouchers annually for homeless families in her State of the City speech in February. The Coalition for the Homeless asked IBO to evaluate the fiscal impact of the proposal. Our findings: even if the priority led to more families entering the shelter system and fewer leaving on their own accord, there would be savings in shelter costs.
The complete fiscal impact analysis, in the form of a letter, is available on IBO's Web site at: http://bit.ly/MthyhiFor better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
They save the shelters money but cost the city money.
Not that I am against them, just saying they are still def a big cost.
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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CTK-
The Feds pay for a greater % of NYCHA than shelters. So we are basically moving the burden of the homeless folks to the Feds, and making the working class folks who live in the projects have to be their neighbors.In a way, we are saying "you are all the same".
I wish those working class folks would vote. Then, the gov couldn't force them to deal with these multi-problem homeless families "alone", and the projects would be nicer to live around.
However, I think the trend we are seeing will merely accelerate, because we need more permanent, less expensive options than shelters. ....so I advise against buying near a housing project on the basis that I fear they will become worse than they are today.
They may become even more filled with people who are unable/unwlling to demand effective police, fire, education and sanitation services.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Lol...i can smell the white guilt from here!
You are allowed to be honest about your feelings, eastbloc.
You wont be accused of anything if you consider that housing project scary to live near.
IMHOYou're barking up the wrong tree with the guilt accusation there, pal.
I got mine the hard way. My only real privilege was having a brain. I have neither expectation nor desire for a universe of equivalent outcomes.
I don't fear housing projects partly because I grew up in them. It wasn't in this country, there was no racial connotation to them, and I believe that it does is almost purely incidental here at this point.
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There are a lot of places in Queens off of various subway lines that are similarly priced or slightly more expensive with zero safety issues. Depending on what train you are near, faster to Midtown too. Even if the place is a smoking deal, I am not sure it will be worth the potential headaches/disappointment - especially if the OP is unhappy in Harlem.
What's there not to get? Some people just don't want to live in Queens. Why not suggest New Jersey, too? Hoboken maybe? Even fewer safety issues than Queens (which by the way is not completely safe). After all, the PATH is cheaper than the subway, and takes you to midtown just as quickly.
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CTK, I don't think there is anywhere in New York where I wouldn't advise people to "just be street smart."
That having been said, getting to the point where you're closing on an apartment when you haven't spent enough time in the neighborhood to at least get a feel for it is a dumb, dumb, dumb idea, even if safety is off the table. You don't know a place well enough to invest in it if you haven't spent time on the ground there.
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A lot of the "safe" communities in the NYC area would bore me to tears. I suspect that's why I tend to look for neighborhoods that are changing.
....the chance of selling my condo for a profit is also an attraction.
I don't know if the OP plans on having kids, but many people choose to live in boring neighborhoods with low $ returns, just to get them an ok education...
Although the OP might not have kids, if he tries to sell it in 5 years, the potential buyers might.....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Also, I'd submitt that "safety" is relative. Growing up in the city I recall that several "safe" communities with very low crime statistics were the sites of horrific crimes for people of a particular persuasion. I remember when single women were afraid to walk in the area around Central Park at night because of several highly publicized rapes. There are women who feel "unsafe" walking in Park Slope/Greenwood Heights at night today because of things that have occurred there over the past year.
No area has "zero safety issues". Many areas are more safe for certain people than others. I'd posit that there are people who feel absolultly safe in the Albany Projects and completely unsafe walking down the street in Red Hook or Williamsburg. Answering this question means you need to determine what the safety issues are FOR YOU.
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Yes.
I think we are also missing info on another factor: Price.
We'd have a lot more opinions on whether the OP was making a good purchase if we knew they were considering spending "400k on a 1200 sq ft doorman building with stainless kitchen and a backyard" in the 'hood, because we understand there is often a trade off between the perception of safety and price.
We could then opine about what price would be cheap enough for each of us to live in the area, and we'd likely have different answers, especially in the hypothetical....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
mishaps said:
That having been said, getting to the point where you're closing on an apartment when you haven't spent enough time in the neighborhood to at least get a feel for it is a dumb, dumb, dumb idea, even if safety is off the table.True. But the OP didn't ask about the area in general, or even about safety in the area in general. He asked a very specific question to the women of the area about which of the two possible trains they feel safer riding/walking home from late at night. Aren't questions like that the point of forums like this?
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Yeah, but that makes for a short and boring answer, so we had to expand the scope a bit
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I agree, a point to this forum would be awesome.
Let's keep posting until we find it.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
You two are hilarious.
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I love that block. The building has no more available units, and we didn't get our butts in gear to get preapproved, etc. until it was too late. Yes, it's loud at times, but iwas literally just on the block now and there were a bunch of kids in the sprinklers, old men playing cards, and two moms sitting and talking. It's close to Brower Park which is really nice and the block is a lot of condos and gut renovated rentals that bring in a more professional crowd if you will than other surrounding blocks. I'd jump on it, personally.
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'Hi, I am a [input non-Black race here][gender here]. The neighborhood I plan to move to is filled with people who are not [input non-Black race here]. Implicit in my question is my reasonable prejudice about Black people. Tell me, is it safe??? I know, I'm a bigot for proposing this question, but you're a bigot for answering it with a straight face, no? By the way, in this questionable economy I was privileged enough to receive a mortgage to purchase some choice real estate at an incredible price, a price, by the way, which will definitely increase dramatically once the Black people who have lived there for generations and because of redlining, and history will never receive the same privileges I have to purchase property in the neighborhood -- are moved out of the neighborhood and more [input non-Black race here] people like myself move in. Yeah, I know, I'm a pioneer of sorts. But, what I really struggle with is being a non-bigot bigot, you know? I mean, is it safe to live here? How long do you think before 'market forces' lift all the 'capable boats' and people like me will be the majority and people like 'them' won't? Is it safe??? How long need I live uneasily with those folks whose potential for harming me is constantly in the forefront of my brain? Is it safe?'
Is it safe indeed.... Those who raise the question are the real threat, if you think about it....
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That's the nature of the unresolved inner psychic struggle? Nah, that is way to easy to resolve.
For that to be its nature, the desire to remain "safe" would be held only by one race.
Being that we live in a world in which suspicion and fear are common, don't smart people of every hue try to avoid living in situations that will minimize their risk of harm?
Don't smart people of every hue take advantage of every privilege that the world offers them?
....the struggle you describe is easy to resolve. Others are far harder.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
The Psycho-ologist
big A little a Bouncing B the system may have got you but it won't get me.
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 439whynot_31 said:
That's the nature of the unresolved inner psychic struggle? Nah, that is way to easy to resolve.For that to be its nature, the desire to remain "safe" would be held only by one race.
Being that we live in a world in which suspicion and fear are common, don't smart people of every hue try to avoid living in situations that will minimize their risk of harm?
Don't smart people of every hue take advantage of every privilege that the world offers them?
....the struggle you describe is easy to resolve. Others are far harder.
As a person of color, I couldn't agree more. Maybe I am looking at it from a classicist angle, but I see myself as a young professional trying to avoid those who wouldn't likely live similar lifestyles (ie sleeping at night on weekdays to get up in the morning to go to work). People who work like me won't be blasting their music at 2 am on weekdays, on a nearly daily basis, because they would be too tired to make it to a 9-5 the next day.
I think the "struggle" and "guilt" lies in perceiving the "difference" whether its class, racial, gender, age etc, and trying not to make a systematic pronouncement on all those who share that same marker, yet, keeping that marker in mind when making a decision based on previous experience, with many people who have "behaved in a certain way and shared that marker".
Basically it is trying to maximize the benefit of experience, without degrading into the pitfall, of glib stereotypical generalizations.
a teaspoon of kisses and a drop of glee -
MHA contributes his usual distorted, reductionist view, driven by an unhealthy preoccupation with race that must make it very difficult for him to make actual sense of the world.
It would be amusing to watch him try to assess the same types of situations in places where class and race don't have coinciding boundaries. How confusing it would be for his color-obsessed brain!
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I used to live near a housing project in Bensonhurst. Ironically, I think THEY were the fearful ones.
As for the Kingston Ave area... I don't even like driving through there. My best advice would be to take both walks home from the subway at various times and see what you think.
There are wackos no matter where you live, but I think in that area you are more likely to run into an aggressive one, rather than say... Ft greene or even some parts of Bed stuy.
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LOL MHA.... Are you saying the black folks in East NY (sorry if you live there and happen to be sane) are of the same caliber as the ones in Prospect Heights or Fort Greene? That actually makes you the bigot for suggesting it.
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cremate said:
LOL MHA.... Are you saying the black folks in East NY (sorry if you live there and happen to be sane) are of the same caliber as the ones in Prospect Heights or Fort Greene? That actually makes you the bigot for suggesting it.Dude, do you sell slaves on the weekends? Are you serious with that question?
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The bottom line is that you have to pay lot more if you want a decent neighborhood. There are the so-called "up and coming" neighborhoods (gentri-hoods) that may look trendy now but will take a dive later on. Don't just buy a property because it's "trendy" now! I sold my hole on 6th st and 5ave and got an excellent condo in Jersey and still had some money left.
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And yet you appear to spend time reading and posting on Brooklynian. Are you sure you don't have some buyer's (seller's) remorse?
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<< smiles and thinks to self that Park Slope was once a risky "up and coming" neighborhood.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Apparently still too risky for moth. He's safely on the other side now.
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MHA never quits lmao. Yes MHA, someone asking if an area of statistically high crime is safe to live in is a bigot. Will there ever come a day when you think? I pretty much only come back here to find out.
And eastbloc I get that every neighborhood isn't for everybody. But on the flip side you have to make do with what you got. I don't care how much "character" a neighborhood has. Safety & peace of mind are the top priorities. What good is a neighborhood with character if you are too paralyzed with fear to enjoy it? What quality of life issues are in Harlem that aren't at this new location?
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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CTK -- note how you create a layered context here. The initiator of this thread does NOT say, 'Hi, I am buying a condo in a statistically high crime area,' is it safe?' All that he/she does is to indicate that they are thinking of such a purchase. Others chime in and THEY announce THEIR race, saying, I am a White male, or a White female, and so far, 'I'm safe'. Implicit in their statement is that 'the others' have not harmed them. The NON-WHITE others...
My tongue-in-cheek commentary is pointing a well-placed finger at this. Imagine, if you will, were I to post a thread about moving to say, Park Slope. Suppose I said, 'Hi, I'm about to buy a condo on 7th Avenue near Sterling Place, is it safe? And then someone responded and they said, 'I am a Black guy living in an apartment not too far from there, and yeah, it's safe.' Or, someone else said, 'Well, I'm a small-framed Black woman and I walk on those streets almost every day, the folks around there get a little noisy sometimes, but otherswise, yeah, it's safe.'
Are you telling me that doesn't sound bizaare to you??
You try to wisk away my comment by making the initial comments on this thread seem reasonable by saying matter of factly in your critique of me, 'It's a high crime area' -- but where do you see that in what has been written about it?
Eastbloc calls my comments yet another example of an unhealthy perspective where I am apparently skewing facts by viewing the world through a racial prism. Eastbloc, it seems to me that any truthful view of this situation cannot obscure the racial aspect. Indeed, to act like race ISN'T a factor here is to miss a PRIMARY perspective that other people who have commented also see the situation through the prism of race. If they do not, then why are THEY mentioning THEIR race?? And why is my pointing out how THEY see the situation unhealthy? And, assuming CTK's perspective is right, and this is a high crime area, why is it still reasonable to say, 'Hi, I am a WHITE person living in this "statistically high crime area" and so far I am safe'!? Why is this okay?
Oh, but to use CTK's reasoning, it's probably reasonable for a White person to say this if it's a statistically high 'hate crime' area...
Once again, MHA speaks truth to power.
MHA breaks it DOWN, baby!!! MHA schools the fools!
LMAO at YOU, dude.... Your so blind,
Watchin' channel zero,
You laud the fools
And scorn the hero...
I'm not thinkin'?? What you call what you do?
Just like Mr. T, I pity you.... -
Once again, MHA is high as a kite.
MHA and Don Quixote have a lot in common. It's not that the windmills don't exist, it's that the significance you attach to them is out of proportion with reality. Your obsession with race is like Steve Maynard's obsession with trees.
The reason people ask whether it's safe for a person of a given race/creed/etc is because they don't want to live in a place where they are not welcome. It's not because they fear "the other", it's because they fear being harassed, robbed, and beaten up.
There are places in Brooklyn where being white will cause you to stand out and will automatically attract negative attention. Would you disagree with that statement? It happens to me with surprising regularity when I stray past Utica Ave on foot.
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MHA said:
MHA breaks it DOWN, baby!!! MHA schools the fools!LMAO at YOU, dude.... Your so blind,
I think MHA better go back to school himself before he tries to school anyone else again.
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MHA, of all the people to post here, ONLY TWO mentioned their race. So to use those two posters as fuel to make indictments of EVERYONE in the thread as bent on disparaging the black people in the neighborhood is ridiculous.
The great irony here is when folks do the same (use outliers/the worst to make sweeping claims about black people) you have and I am sure continue to froth at the mouth in response. "SEE? SEE????" And yet you doing so is a central theme to your narrative. Hmmmm.
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Eastbloc, So it's reasonable to say, I'm White, and I'm safe? It's reasonable to imply, these Black people are okay, they won't hurt you.'
I'm now 'high' because I point out this can be viewed as offensive?
Would it be reasonable for me to question my safety in Park Slope?
I do disagree with your statement about whiteness and negative attention -- I have no idea what 'negative attention' is! Is that the opposite of 'positive attention'? Cuz I have NO idea what that is either!
And to frame your comments with snide remarks about my opinion does not help discourse eastbloc, it just clouds it. Make your point. The 'high as a kite' comment is not necessary here, and may give the impression that I'm some sort of dope smoker, which is so far from the truth.
It's not that they fear the Other, they just fear getting beaten up --- or robbed (assumably BY the other) -- that makes no sense! If they don't fear Black people but wonder -- in the absence of any stated EMPIRICAL evidence about the safety of the neighborhood -- if they will be safe, that is TEXTBOOK prejudice! That is what prejudice is!
I don't know the racial identity of person who started the thread, but other people chimed in claiming their Whiteness, implying the neighborhood is Black, then state, 'I'm safe so you'll be safe too'. Where in all of this is prejudice absent??? It's not. The presumption here is because it's a Black neighborhood, White people will not be safe... That's prejudice. Secondly, in the presence of evidence that makes this neighborhood, 'statistically high crime', as CTK stated, the presumption that a White person will be particularly UNSAFE is ALSO prejudice...Either way you look at it, it's prejudice.
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Would it be prejudice if the neighborhood being asked about was not predominantly black?
I.E. If I was unfamiliar with Astoria Queens, could I ask whether I wold be safe on a message board that largely served Astoria?
If my hue was different than majority of the residents of Astoria, would my question be prejudice?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
You're being coy, MHA. You know very well what negative attention is -- being stared down, intimidated, verbally abused, spat at, etc.
It can happen to anyone, obviously, not just white people in minority neighborhoods. Wherever an "outsider" is readily identifiable, they run the risk of attracting the ire of some disaffected individual. Areas of high crime and poverty tend to have more disaffected individuals.
So it's really a two-pronged question: whether or not you will stand out there and whether it will matter.
It's not prejudice. It's common sense.
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