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Please Advise: Crown Heights Safety Kingston Ave

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    1. cremate
      cremate

      getting it
      Joined: Jul '11
      Posts: 181

      Let me break it down for you.

      A person in a suit is more likely to get robbed than someone in a hoodie and baggy jeans.

      Some neighborhoods have more robberies than others.

      If you are that suit wearing fellow, you probably don't want to be in a place with high crime as that will increase your chance of being robbed (although that chef probably has a lot more cash on him!). There are also other factors that can increase your chance of being robbed/attacked/raped some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

      This is the attackee perspective.

      Its really not that hard to understand. If the NYPD were to release their data on attackers and attackees, you could put a number on all these factors to see how your demographic fits in. Its not really 'negative prejudice', its just how it is.

    2. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
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      Prejudice, racism, human behavior, experiential learning, constructivism, yada, yada.....

      This short article seems to get around some of the nonsense:

      http://www.wetasphalt.com/content/why-racism-prejudice-power-wrong-way-approach-problems-racism

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    3. cremate
      cremate

      getting it
      Joined: Jul '11
      Posts: 181

      eastbloc said:
      It can happen to anyone, obviously, not just white people in minority neighborhoods. Wherever an "outsider" is readily identifiable, they run the risk of attracting the ire of some disaffected individual. Areas of high crime and poverty tend to have more disaffected individuals.

      This is a good point. I would also say the educated and those that value life/freedom will be less likely to commit violent crimes when acting out their bigotry.

    4. mha
      MHA

      rocking it
      Joined: Feb '10
      Posts: 1,352

      Dang, I'm high, I'm coy, I'm seeing giants instead of windmills... Meanwhile eastbloc, your vision is crystal clear....

      Nowhere in there did the the thread initiator declare how they dress. No one said, 'Hi, I wear suits to work, and the neighborhood that I plan to live in, well, they don't. Am I safe?' What was presumed was that the thread initiator was 'white like me', and 'I'm safe in this Black neighborhood....et al....' Now we are crouching towards racism by saying, it's okay for a white person to ask this question. Whynot comes close in answering my question about the reasonableness of a Black person asking the same thing, but alas, he too falls flat... It's common sense now to be prejudiced? Go figure...

    5. cremate
      cremate

      getting it
      Joined: Jul '11
      Posts: 181

      If I could quote Avenue Q: "Everybody is a little bit racist".

      Its to the extent in which its acted out that determines the level of detriment to the victim. The extremes are usually acted out by the uneducated, poor, hopeless, desperate, addicted, etc...

      MHA, I am a white guy and there are places I would warn a black fellow not to move to in the south and midwest that are predominately white (most places in WVA for example). Does that make me a self hating racist? Or am I just looking out for a fellow human's safety? It may not be "right" but I'm going to look out for someone's safety before I chase self righteousness.

      The city doesn't have that problem now-a-days (WVA example) so perhaps that is why you can't see both sides.

      FWIW, I don't believe the OP is white as he has 'Que' and 'Juan' in his username.

    6. mha
      MHA

      rocking it
      Joined: Feb '10
      Posts: 1,352

      I love that Avenue Q song!

      Now we can see eye to eye! So, you DO agree with me, that it is racist and or prejudice, right? That PRESUMING that one will be unsafe if you are White, and the neighborhood isn't, IS prejudice, right? Even if, as you say, 'everyone' does this, right?

    7. booklaw
      booklaw

      admin
      Joined: Nov '07
      Posts: 2,399

      MHA, I question your logic here. Surely there are black neighborhoods in which a white person would be perfectly safe (and others in which he or she would not)? Actually, my white nephew and his wife live in Harlem, in perfect safety and without fear. My wife and I have not only visited with them in their part of Harlem, but also have gone to restaurants in various other parts of Harlem, again without fear or apparent danger.

      Back when my wife worked in at the library branch in Brownsville, I visited her at the library. I found the area utterly terrifying. This was shortly after I parked my convertible on 125th Street to attend a concert at the Apollo Theater, without fear or adverse consequence.

      So it is not, IMHO, racist for a white person to question whether a given black-majority neighborhood is safe for white people, any more than it is racist for a black person to inquire whether Howard Beach is any less unsafe for black people than it used to be.

    8. cremate
      cremate

      getting it
      Joined: Jul '11
      Posts: 181

      Sure if that's the terminology you want to use.

      You can run blindfolded across Flatbush and may not get hit either, but I'm not going to recommend it. I will prejudge the fact that it increases my chance if I am blindfolded and choose to not do that.

      Can we just call it smartcist?

      MHA, assuming you have the pulse of the crown heights community, is it really that surprising that someone would recommend a white person, or a lady walking home at night, not to live there if safety is of utmost concern?

      Granted there are whackos everywhere, but aren't there certain circumstances that smart folks would try to avoid?

    9. mha
      MHA

      rocking it
      Joined: Feb '10
      Posts: 1,352

      Booklaw, your radio must've lost it's WNYC/NPR tuning or you would've known that Harlem is no longer a 'Black neighborhood'. Black people live there, but number-wise, it's no longer majority Black. But, you dig yourself into the hole here :/ Why is it cool for a White person, encountering a PERCEIVED Black neighborhood -- without any history of racial bias being exercised on White people -- why is it rational/reasonable to ask if it is safe? Why the fear of a Black planet?

      Howard beach, notorious for it's antipathy for Blackvolk -- lest we forget Yusef Hawkins (-- and Bensonhurst too) are different; for there are numerous on the books example of violence being perpetrated against people of color simply because they are of color in those neighborhoods. I dare you to show me similar situations of Yusef Hawkins in Brownsville, and/or East New York.

      Booklaw, in the 1980's, I grew up in Brownsville. Indeed, I was mugged and had the stuffing beaten out of me twice, and chased once by a group of baseball bat wielding folks who look [u]just like me[u]. In my opinion, would-be Whitefolks moving to Brownsville, don't go there. But don't go there because it is generally unsafe and crime-ridden, not because your alabaster skin is gonna get the natives restless and they are going to target you because of the color of your skin. Brownsville wasn't horrible then because it is predominantly Black -- which is what some of those who have written on this thread have implied --- and THAT is my point. Brownsville is/was horrible because the people are poor, and the area is crime-ridden, and they are still trying to get out from under the rock that crack cocaine put them in...

      The implication of a neighborhood being unsafe solely on RACIAL grounds IS prejudice. It's not rational, or reasonable to make such an assumption. It's racist to make such an assumption.

    10. cremate
      cremate

      getting it
      Joined: Jul '11
      Posts: 181

      Booklaw brings up a good point. Its less about race even. If you're a black dude (or spanish in the likely case of the OP) wearing a suit or getting out of a nice car, you likely also have that target on your back.

      I guess I was prejudice when I suggested the OP may be a nice dresser. I tend to think people who post on boards about societal dilemmas tend to be of at least mediocre stock, so I figure their thoughts and concerns align close to my own (prejudging).

      But heck, I could be wrong. You could all be dealing bath salts

    11. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
      Posts: 16,019

      Thee are some lovely neighborhoods outside of Atlanta that are predominantly black, that I think very few people (regardless of their hue) would mind living in.

      The neighborhoods share very little in common with Kingston Ave.

      Am I being prejudice/racist when I discuss Atlanta?

      Prejudice takes is in play whenever we hold a preconceived notion, right?

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    12. cremate
      cremate

      getting it
      Joined: Jul '11
      Posts: 181

      I remember when I moved to Sunset Park, my ex-landlord warned me, "You may not have any money, but they are going to think you do because you're white".

      The attackers may prejudge a little bit on race too!

      Although things went fine there, that's a white specific dilemma that I'm not sure MHA considered.

    13. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
      Posts: 16,019

      I can't think any group or place that I don't associate with positive or negative feelings.

      It's all a matter of what degree we let such feelings impact our lives, and those of others.

      It is all a matter of degree.

      -Some people let such preconceived notions rule their lives, and make no apology for it.

      -Others deny they have any preconceived notions, and are seemingly oblivious.

      -Others try to take in new information, and fight the brains natural tendency to put things int categories.

      -Still others insist that they know to what degree others are acting on preconceived notions.

      It's somewhat interesting.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    14. mha
      MHA

      rocking it
      Joined: Feb '10
      Posts: 1,352

      Ahh well... the world will be over soon.

    15. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
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      I've been wondering where Haile Selassie thought we will go.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    16. mha
      MHA

      rocking it
      Joined: Feb '10
      Posts: 1,352

      I wonder were I a Hasid would you dare make a similar snide remark about the Rebbe? I doubt that you would...So strip away the faith, and highlight the comment, and what do you see?

    17. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
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      I'm actually a big fan of Mr. Selassie's, and think he'd be ok with me as a fan.

      Re: The Rebbe. I'm not sure what the reaction of a "typical" Hasid would be to me asking where (or whether) the Rebbe thinks the afterlife will happen.

      My impression is that many of our Hasid neighbors on Kingston believe the Rebbe was the Messiah, but others don't.

      ...I've reached the conclusion that just like the percentage of people that believe in Mr. Selassie; it is always changing.

      Also, as this thread might demonstrate, it is tough to generalize about who is a fan of who. Or, who loves a good conversation.

      ...I've had several great conversations with Lubavitch members over the years.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    18. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
      Posts: 16,019

      Returning to topic of "crime and housing projects", this quote from Kelly appeared in today's NYT:

      According to Mr. Kelly, about 4 percent of the city’s population lives in public housing, where 20 percent of all violent crime occurs.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/nyregion/officer-shot-in-lower-east-building.html

      Is it wrong to suspect that crime might also be prevalent in the area's AROUND the projects?

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    19. cool the kid
      Cool The Kid

      We out this mother effer
      Joined: Jan '07
      Posts: 1,385

      MHA said:
      Dang, I'm high, I'm coy, I'm seeing giants instead of windmills... Meanwhile eastbloc, your vision is crystal clear....

      Nowhere in there did the the thread initiator declare how they dress. No one said, 'Hi, I wear suits to work, and the neighborhood that I plan to live in, well, they don't. Am I safe?' What was presumed was that the thread initiator was 'white like me', and 'I'm safe in this Black neighborhood....et al....' Now we are crouching towards racism by saying, it's okay for a white person to ask this question. Whynot comes close in answering my question about the reasonableness of a Black person asking the same thing, but alas, he too falls flat... It's common sense now to be prejudiced? Go figure...

      What race is/are the threadstarters?

      [
      Mamacita said:
      I <3 CTK
    20. mha
      MHA

      rocking it
      Joined: Feb '10
      Posts: 1,352

      Oh yeah, tell me Whynot 31, what is it about Haile Selassie that makes you such a big fan??

    21. armchair_warrior
      armchair_warrior

      retsop cixelsyd
      Joined: Dec '05
      Posts: 7,946

      You know what they government should stop tracking via race and start just with economics, from violent crimes to poor schools to who needs help etc.. than from race.

      Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
      I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).
    22. whynot_31
      whynot_31

      Former Lurker
      Joined: Mar '06
      Posts: 16,019

      AW-
      Yes, that might be the best way to go about it.

      MHA-
      There are many reasons, but I will list the fact that Bob Marley liked him as one of my primary ones. You know Bob Marley's song War was based on Haile Selassie's writings, right?

      Although credited to Emperor Haile Selassie I, whose Christian name is Tafari Makonen, the text was actually written by Lorenzo Tazaz, a close contributor who wrote many of the Ethiopian leader's most important speeches, including one given in 1935 to the League of Nations. Spoken in Ethiopia's official Amharic language at the U.N., the 1963 speech was published in English in Important Utterances of H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie I 1963-1972.[4] The book gave permission to freely use its contents: "Any portion of this book could be reproduced by any process without permission."

      The song uses part of Selassie’s speech that calls for equality among all without regard to race, class, or nationality in his hymnal cry for peace. It also asserts, quoting Selassie directly, that until the day of an equal society, there will be war.

      In the original speech, Selassie urged U.N. officials and country representatives to disarm nuclear weapons, and to end international exploitation (specifically with Africa). The song honors Haile Selassie I while calling for action against racial inequality and international injustice. The part of the speech used by Bob Marley was preceded by the following words:

      Last May, in Addis Ababa, I convened a meeting of Heads of African States and Governments. In three days, the thirty-two nations represented at that Conference demonstrated to the world that when the will and the determination exist, nations and peoples of diverse backgrounds can and will work together. In unity, to the achievement of common goals and the assurance of that equality and brotherhood which we desire. On the question of racial discrimination, the Addis Ababa Conference taught, to those who will learn, this further lesson:

      Here is the part of Haile Selassie’s speech put to music by Marley in his original song “War” (Bob Marley slightly modified the original words, changing each "that until" to "until" and added the word "war" several times):

      That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned; That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained; And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; Until all Africans stand and speak as free beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of Heaven; Until that day, the African continent will not know peace. We Africans will fight, if necessary, and we know that we shall win, as we are confident in the victory of good over evil. – Haile Selassie I

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_%28Bob_Marley_song%29

      While it is a great song, sadly, I think there will be war as long as there is humanity.

      When war fails, ganja is sometimes the answer.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    23. stacey
      stacey

      rocking it
      Joined: Mar '05
      Posts: 3,524

      dquejuan said:
      Hello All, My wife and I will most likely be closing on a condo in Crown Heights on 943 Saint Marks Avenue. We are moving from Harlem and my wife works pretty late at a restaurant in midtown. The subway stops on Kingston C or 3 will be her means home, both are 6 blocks from our address. Could you guys offer any wisdom on what line to ride or avoid at which time? Ladies, specifically, what do you do to keep safe? Thanks so much.

      me@douglasdavis.com

      Wow maybe my reading comprehension sucks but seems like all you asked was what train line women of the neighborhood feel safer on coming home late at night.
      My personal preference is the 3 train. The C takes forever and the a/c never works well on the ones I seem to get on. I would assume that it's a shorter trip on the 3 also. She should try both lines once to see which one she prefers.
      As for keeping safe on the train, I never fall asleep and never flash my electronics or jewelry.

      Enjoy your new place.

      ETA - thanks Brooklyngirl for the Brooklyn Bike Patrol shout out


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