Get Brooklynian.com by Email! 
Grab the Feed (RSS)
93/ khabs am pehkt -- light in extension
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
-
Okay I am seriously thinking of moving to the heights so I posted an early post about being fearful and nervous when I came around and saw many addicts. I will admit I am afraid of vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted looking people. I would like to think my fear is based on their being a vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addict rather than on being a black or white person. So I am gong to ask some weird questions here for both the white and black CH dwellers: If you are black, do you feel less fearful of the vagrants, crazies addicts in the area, because of your color? Like do you feel as a black person you can "handle yourself better" or are somehow not a likely target? If you are white do you feel that your color makes you a bigger target? If you are black, would you have more or less fear if the vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted person was a from a different race? If you are white, do you feel guilty if you feel fear about being around vagrants, drug addicts etc especially if they are a different color than you? please be serious when answering, cause I am really curious and would like to know.
-
If you are white do you feel that your color makes you a bigger target?
ProbablyIf you are white, do you feel guilty if you feel fear about being around vagrants, drug addicts etc especially if they are a different color than you?
No -
I think it's good for people of all races to exercise a healthy degree of caution around addicts, thugs, etc. I don't think that race has as much to do with being a victim as does one's appearance and demeanor. There are white and black people who could easily hold their own in a streetfight with a mugger, just as there are people of both races who could be overtaken. In the end, people of all races are victimized, though I'm pretty sure statistics show that black people are more often the victims of crime. I, for one, feel absolutely no guilt about being cautious around anyone who makes me feel uneasy. If I wind up making false assumptions or stereotyping others, tough shit.
-
See, now you lost me entirely. Before you were asking if people felt safe. And i thought to myself that safety is such a personal and subjective thing, but getting a sense from other people is good. Now its trying to find out just how internalized your racism and classism is, and it has a little bit of a tone of trying to justify your own. Honestly, who cares. Sorry, but seriously... who cares. You came over for a visit and you didn't feel safe. Whether thats internalized racism or classism over the color of a passed out addict is somewhat irrelevant. You did not feel safe. Bottom line, end of story. Only you can figure out where that fear comes from and whether or not it is justified, but it seems to me this dicussion of are you white/black and do you feel safe/not safe around a black/white addict is just ludicrous to me. There are plenty of scary sober white guys out there too.
-
...maybe you shouldn't move here/there? I'm not at all saying that as a personal attack, but being that you feel so uneasy, is it really such a great idea? The last thing you'd want when coming home is to feel questionable about the place where you rest your head. 1/No, I feel the same. Guess it depends on what you mean by vagrants. like...I'm not scared of the guys on the corner, but I hate the -Psst, pssssssssst, mamis 2/ N/A 3/ Nope, they are the same 4/ No, but sometimes I feel guilty anyway. I'm kind of a wuss, but maybe my cautiousness around people is more offensive to them than defensive to me? Regardless of race, I mean. Just because they're homeless doesn't mean they're gonna rob me.
-
Wow, for once I agree entirely with Jack!
-
jayce » See, now you lost me entirely. Before you were asking if people felt safe. And i thought to myself that safety is such a personal and subjective thing, but getting a sense from other people is good. Now its trying to find out just how internalized your racism and classism is, and it has a little bit of a tone of trying to justify your own. Honestly, who cares. Sorry, but seriously... who cares. You came over for a visit and you didn't feel safe. Whether thats internalized racism or classism over the color of a passed out addict is somewhat irrelevant. You did not feel safe. Bottom line, end of story. Only you can figure out where that fear comes from and whether or not it is justified, but it seems to me this dicussion of are you white/black and do you feel safe/not safe around a black/white addict is just ludicrous to me. There are plenty of scary sober white guys out there too.
This is a brilliant response to a stupid fucking question. Nice, Jayce! Also, I'd say that drunken white boys are way more scary than a squeegee holding crackhead. First of all, the frat boys can blend in a bit and look unassuming in the A & F gear, but man they turn violent and ugly really quickly. Also, their Dave Matthews/Phish shit is awful. How about looking elsewhere to move? Maybe Seagate would be prime for ya!The best of men aren't at their "best" at all times. -
who calls Crown Heights "the heights" anyway? [and bravo Jayce for breaking it down]
-
brilliant response to a stupid fucking question. Nice, Jayce!
I couldn't agree more. Of course, if I responded first and honestly, as I did to her previous post, sistergirl will think I'm only out to get her (paranoia that's not healthy). Besides, I guess I can't answer cuz I'm Latina. (but my daughter's 1/2 black--does that count?):roll: What the hell is "racialist" anyway? Are you fabricating euphymisms to mitigate your own guilty racism/classism? How very Bush of you. Riddle me this: If you move here, are going to actively work to enhance the community and make it a safer place for me and my daughter and other residents? No, you just want cheap rent, but expect the community to enhance around you. It doesn't work like that. Here's an idea on how you can live in any neighborhood you deem fit for yourself: Craiglist Roommates. Move in and adapt or move on. -
solamami » What the hell is "racialist" anyway? Are you fabricating euphymisms to mitigate your own guilty racism/classism? How very Bush of you.
It looks like the term has existed fro decades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racialism However, I've only heard the term recently from Ali G. Like in this clip with Andy Rooney: http://www.naden.de/blog/bbvideo-bbpress-video-plugin --> -
Kudos to my latina sis! Sola, Mami!
-
Yeah, I too was on the Ali G tip too and really had to look it up. I studied linguistics (for real) and think it is an antiquated word that got replaced by racist, which is a synonym listed for the word on dictionary.com. It still exists in our dictionaries, but it is dead in our collective lexicon.The best of men aren't at their "best" at all times.
-
Isn't racialist a word people use when they *want* to make race-based distinctions without attaching the negative connotation of racism to themselves or their argument?
-
My point exactly, Pitu. I defer to Leeho's linguistic expertise for being a lexiconical purist. (Frankly, I'm impressed; and a lil' envious.) But extra brownie points to Carnivore to dig up Da Ali G. link. I've never been compared to Andy Rooney before--and likely never will again. =D>
-
I think she was asking openly and honestly and shouldn't be attacked. She wants to know how other white people feel and I think it's valid. It does suggest racism but it's someone who's truly grappling with that fact and trying to get to the bottom of it instead of not confronting it. I think the attacks are not warranted. Save them for someone who doesn't care if they are racist or not. 2) Yes 4) No- I fear all vagrants the same-The more I see of man, the more I like dogs
-
i think "racialist" is used in south african english (and maybe other places) to mean exactly the same thing as "racist" does in american english. i may be wrong about that, but my assumption was not that the OP was using complex semantics to subtly display...i don't know, whatever it is people think she's displaying.
for the record: i am more afraid of white frat boys than of anybody, but i do think that the fact that the boogieman-esque nameless mugger/rapist/insert violence-doer here in movies, etc., is more often black than white does take its toll on my subconscious. which is not fair or right, and which i try to be on guard against in my own mind.Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit -
bojolais » I think she was asking openly and honestly and shouldn't be attacked. She wants to know how other white people feel and I think it's valid. It does suggest racism but it's someone who's truly grappling with that fact and trying to get to the bottom of it instead of not confronting it. I think the attacks are not warranted. Save them for someone who doesn't care if they are racist or not.
I sat here for a while debating whether or not I wanted to respond to you. I wound up deciding that yeah, I kinda wanted to, so here it goes. 1. Have you ever been the victim of an attack? Seriously. Not like someone on a board expressing a view point other than your own, but like an attack. There is a certain severity to the word for most people. If there isn't, wow, you've had a great life. Either way, expressing a difference of opinion, even when not sugar coated with some coddling, "oh sweetheart, I can totally feel your pain right now in not knowing where to live" is not an attack. Swinging a bat, totally attack. Telling her another opinion = discourse. And sometimes those get heated. Although I am unable to find much of that here. 2. This is the second post on this very same topic from this very same poster. She posted yesterday and got some really great replies. But.she.didn't.like.them. What can I say? Should there be a crown heights cheerleading squad out there to rah-rah her into the neighborhood? She got thoughtful opinions and apparently it wasn't enough. 3. what I take issue with today is the underlying message in this post. Now its not about what do people think... now its expressing some clear biases that tend to offend people. In her short post I learned that my neighborhood is rife with addicts (I haven't tripped over many myself in my time here), those addicts are predominantly black (our racially diverse black and white neighborhood... nothin inbetween, right?) and they target white girls, especially ones like her. I didn't even bother hopping all over these issues, even though I wanted to, because whether I like it or not, the woman has her biases. We all do. Like I said before, no offense to anyone here, I tend to get really freaked out by groups of straight white 20-something men. You don't see me polling you all about their savory characters en masse now that more are moving here, do you? 4. if you read my message again, you'll see my slightly convoluted point (as I tend to be a lil verbose, no doubt) is that other peoples opinions and levels of safety don't matter. If she doesn't feel safe, regardless of the reason, thats all that matters. Honestly. I am so tired of reading the word "attack" on these boards. in the meantime, SisterofCain, it sounds like you made up your mind about the neighborhood. Go with your gut. But don't come over here and try to solicit already biased opinions. It's really unkind to those of us that live here and love it. -
I think that a place like CH brings out these questions. My only caveat: when a person like Sister of Cain is honestly trying to grapple with race-stuff that's hard, confusing, and weird for all of us--because at least as far as I know, none of us are born with racial etiquette cards--shouldn't we be a little bit nicer to her? At least she's articulating what so many pseudo hip white new yorkers are too fake liberal to even admit to. I also, though, like the fact that previous posters pointed out the dangers of drunk straight white guys, too--because this is all about POV and context. As a biracial person, I do feel marginally safer because of that in CH. But I also think a lot of it is just being urban vs. non-urban, regardless of race. As a woman, you're most likely to be raped or killed by your boyfriend, though, not some mythical giant-penis-ed black guy looming in the dark scary night... That said, when I first moved to CH, I was scared and thought of moving. Nothing to do with race. The shootings freaked me out. As time has gone on, I've felt safer and safer, and people have been nice and friendly. I think, however, that this neighborhood needs more spaces for community to happen--loungey cafes, art/theatre/etc. spaces, and that would help tremendously...I have fantasies of buying a building and trying to turn part of it into a community art space...Folle dont je suis affolée,
Je te hais autant que je t'aime! -
i agree community space would be great. sisterofcain, these are interesting questions. i have been a number of times in places of real conflict (most recently afghanistan a couple years ago) and from these experiences, I have come to think fear is not useful. Caution, yes. But I think fear is actually counter-productive, and often acts like a blindfold -- it prevents us from really seeing people. And sometimes when I read these arguments on these boards, I wonder if we aren't failing to make proper distinction between being fearful, and being cautious (as opposed to naive.) I do not feel afraid getting off at the Franklin Ave stop coming home around midnight. But I do feel cautious. (and I felt edgy right after Kevin was killed on Franklin.) Does that make sense? race is a barrier that is built up by society, i think, and broken down by individuals.
-
Subject: Re: racialist fear or healthy paranoia?
sisterofcain » If you are black, do you feel less fearful of the vagrants, crazies addicts in the area, because of your color? Like do you feel as a black person you can "handle yourself better" or are somehow not a likely target? If you are black, would you have more or less fear if the vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted person was a from a different race?
I may be semi-irrelevant: I grew up in nearby east flatbush in the 70's and 80's and still come back to nyc and brooklyn from time to time. I felt back then and still feel less fearful as a target as a black person in a predominantly black area because I haven't been a victim of a serious crime, I walk very quickly and act like I've got eyes in the back of my head, and because I'm black, I suspect that potential crazies and similar types perceive that I can take care of myself eventhough that may not necesarily be the case
. However, last year, I brought a white girlfriend back through the EF neighborhood in the dead of night once without incident (I believe there was some luck involved and may not do it again) and I was scared for the both of us due to the toxic effect interracial couples have on some black people.
In response to the second question, possibly less fear because I haven't encountered that many so I lack a frame of reference. However, I would be a little wary of white ethnic neighborhoods like bensonhurst and gravesend eventhough I've heard they've progressed a bit."Tommorow's another god damn day"
Bunk--The Wire -
This is more of a response to anniewilde's comment than the original post. You wrote: "I think, however, that this neighborhood needs more spaces for community to happen--loungey cafes, art/theatre/etc. spaces, and that would help tremendously...I have fantasies of buying a building and trying to turn part of it into a community art space..." I feel just like you! I love it here so much and I feel like the only thing missing are loungey cafes! Oh, I dream of buying the Kingston Lounge on Bergen and Kingston and turning it into a kid-friendly cafe by day to serve the patrons of the Brooklyn Children's Museum (where do they go for lunch?) and an art/performance/cafe space by night. It's such a pretty looking place from the outside -- it's a shame it's closed. I wonder if it's possible to make that happen within the community. But, FYI, there is an art and craft fair at the James Davis Center for Nonviolence (or something like that) on the corner of St. Johns and Hampton Place (1/2 block East of Kingston) soon. I know that one of the dates is Friday night, December 8th, but I can't recall the other days. (I'm not one of the crafters, but I'm going to check it out.) Also, I have been trying to start a Crown Heights Craft Club in my home. Four people from my block association came over on Thursday for a knitting class with a guest teacher -- I'd like to try to grow the Craft Club so that it's like a salon with people from the neighborhood talking about their work and teaching their craft. If you have any interest in collaborating, please email me at enidcrow [at] hotmail.com.
-
I will admit I am afraid of vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted looking people. I would like to think my fear is based on their being a vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addict rather than on being a black or white person.
I've only ever experienced random violence at the hands of whites. I've also only ever directly experienced institutionalized racism at the hands of a whiter nation than this one. Rightly or wrongly, as a white person, I fear dodgy white people more than black. I rationalize this by theorizing that dodgy black people, rightly or wrongly, probably have in the back of their minds the belief that there's a criminal justice system out there that's heavily stacked against them and will come down on them like a ton of cinder blocks if they mess with a white guy. A white thug may think he has less to fear, making him more dangerous. And having lived in some some reasonably bad neighborhoods, including the one with the worst reputation and most vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted people in a particular country, with a mix of races, I think projecting confidence not fear, being alert and feeling/acting like a local not a tourist, is a good way to avoid trouble. Being at least 6' also helps. I also note that the incredible disparity in incarceration rates with respect to color in this country suggests that there are more white thugs at large.The world will little note nor long remember what we say here. -- Abraham Lincoln -
doctorj »
Hmm, well I feel obliged to weigh in on this one just to counterbalance this experience. I have most definitely, and on quite a few occasions, experienced random violence at the hand of blacks. The point I fully agree with you on is that being big helps--once I surpassed 6' the attacks miraculously stopped, proving to me that all those "toughs" are really just cowardly bullies. And I've personally only experienced institutionalized racism in Japan. All this is to say, so freakin what? Neither blacks nor whites have a monopoly on violence, racism, or being assholes in general. While it's natural to feel a surge in racist emotions after you're attacked, the point is that you need to eventually get over it. You're much better off making judgments about people based on a whole range of characteristics that you can draw from other than race--doctorj, I'd advise against, for example, assuming blacks are too afraid of the justice system to attack you. If the guy coming at you looks thuggish and menacing and is glaring at you, be alert, whether that guy is black, white, hispanic, or whatever. And if he's just minding his own business, then don't be overly paranoid because he has a certain color skin or fits some stereotype that you are prejudiced against. It's a very tough balance, naturally, but I think that's the gist of it.I will admit I am afraid of vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted looking people. I would like to think my fear is based on their being a vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addict rather than on being a black or white person.
I've only ever experienced random violence at the hands of whites. I've also only ever directly experienced institutionalized racism at the hands of a whiter nation than this one. Rightly or wrongly, as a white person, I fear dodgy white people more than black. I rationalize this by theorizing that dodgy black people, rightly or wrongly, probably have in the back of their minds the belief that there's a criminal justice system out there that's heavily stacked against them and will come down on them like a ton of cinder blocks if they mess with a white guy. A white thug may think he has less to fear, making him more dangerous. And having lived in some some reasonably bad neighborhoods, including the one with the worst reputation and most vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted people in a particular country, with a mix of races, I think projecting confidence not fear, being alert and feeling/acting like a local not a tourist, is a good way to avoid trouble. Being at least 6' also helps. I also note that the incredible disparity in incarceration rates with respect to color in this country suggests that there are more white thugs at large. -
It is interesting to me to read so much about FEAR in this forum, and to see how many people focus so much on their fear of crime. Yes, crime sucks. But going by actual statistics, I'd bet there are a LOT more people dying in Crown Heights from other causes than murder. And a lot more people dying from poverty-related causes than people getting robbed each year. That is true for New York city overall: for example, while 623 people died from homicide in 2003 (see http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/vital_statistics/2003/table33c.htm), 1,189 died from accidents, including motor vehicle and falling. 1,610 died from AIDS. 2600 from pneumonia! The city had about 21,000 robberies citywide in 2005, but 27,000 died of heart disease. OK, so people have to die of something and we shouldn't expect the heart to last forever. But we know a lot of heart disease that is treatable doesn't get treated due to lack of health care and very expensive medicines. This isn't to say that we should ignore crime altogether, but it does suggest that fear is often misplaced. Yes, it is very bad that there have been 21 murders this year - but the population is almost 100,000 in the 77th precinct, meaning your chances of being one of them are .00021. Why is it that this forum never discusses the other causes of death and hardship in Crown Heights? Shouldn't we talk about preventable diseases and the need for universal health care? Or the need for living wage jobs and affordable housing? These issues affect lots more people (though they have a disproportionate impact on blacks and latinos). This discussion would be a lot more productive, in my mind.
-
Anonymous » Why is it that this forum never discusses the other causes of death and hardship in Crown Heights? Shouldn't we talk about preventable diseases and the need for universal health care? Or the need for living wage jobs and affordable housing? These issues affect lots more people (though they have a disproportionate impact on blacks and latinos). This discussion would be a lot more productive, in my mind.
Start a thread about it if you want to discuss it. As long as you follow the rules (no spam/ads on the main forums, no personal attacks, etc.) you're free to talk about whatever you want. -
My first reaction to Guest was just that fear is irrational--most of us are completely unafraid to get in a car but may be terrified of flying, even though cars are a lot more dangerous. 9/11 caused mass trauma, whereas millions more dying from things like heart disease doesn't illicit the same emotional response. There's something about violence that is far more upsetting. But as to the last part, Guest thinks that no one on this board discusses the "need" for socialized health care or price controls on housing and labor?? Surely this is a joke, as I'd say at least one of those issues comes up in about 90% of the threads here.
-
Subject: Re: racialist fear or healthy paranoia?
[color=red]If you are black, do you feel less fearful of the vagrants, crazies addicts in the area, because of your color? Like do you feel as a black person you can "handle yourself better" or are somehow not a likely target? It doesn't matte the race, color or creed of the addicts and vagrants (there are white ones the streets of CH as well as Black and Hispanic ones), you need to be cautious. That has nothing to do with race. Do I feel like I can "handle" myself better? No. Just have common sense. If you are black, would you have more or less fear if the vagrant/crazy/homeless/drug addicted person was a from a different race? Actually the vagrants are not necessarily the ones who scare me. -
anniewilde » That said, when I first moved to CH, I was scared and thought of moving. Nothing to do with race. The shootings freaked me out. As time has gone on, I've felt safer and safer, and people have been nice and friendly.
That's kinda the Gist of this whole debate and Q&A...:!: I came to Bklyn back in the late 1980's to attend Pratt. At THE TIME, white, Asian and most Latino STUDENTS (not residents) were seen as outsiders and thus fuck'd with more often that not. Going out after dark was a real horror show, generally left campus or the dorms in packs of 4 or more.
I was jumped 3 times in two years, had a gun pulled on me in Ft. Greene park (which I miss 
) and hat more cat calls/muffled "whitey" remarks than I care to share.
NOW, that being said, I STAYED in the community through 2004mbefore buying a home. What I quickly learned, as many folks have pointed out, being scared or feeling safe is a state of mind. Once I felt I was established as a resident of Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill. I felt safer. Once my neighbors and folks I saw at the pizza spot, bodegas, bars, etc. saw I wasn't just passing through, they felt safer with me. 
I hate to say that you have to earn your props in a particular 'nabe, but you in many cases due. Even in moving to a predominantly white/Italian/Polish/working class (and Latino as well, thank God!) my wife and I still had to earn the trust of our new neighbors...plain and simple.
I'll recommend SOC spend some more time walking around what might be her new 'nabe. Smile at some folks. Chat them up (if you feel comfortable at that point) since most folks are proud of their 'nabe. Goto a local restaurant. Get the feel for the people and the places, and them to you. Then you'll know if you want to live in that 'nabe, pay some dues and become part of that community.
At the end of the day, your "community" matters most, no matter the racial, ethnic, financial or socio/political make up.
Shit, that's Bklyn, babe! A word or two from the highest point in Brooklyn--Greenwood Hts.
...elevation, not just inebriation... -
lostingreenwood, I shared your experience living in FG in the 80's, so I know what you're saying. I'm skeptical that once the community gets used to you that your safety increases, as I personally doubt that those neighbors who might recognize you and become friendly with you are the same ones that would have jumped you anyway. But obviously it doesn't hurt. Beyond that, once you have been victimized a few times, you learn a way of carrying yourself, where to go and when, which blocks are shady and which are safe, how to talk, walk, dress, etc. Plus, broadly speaking the area has simply become much safer than it was back then. I'm glad to hear that your experience improved, but I wonder if it was really because the muggers decided that you had earned their respect by staying around.
-
escap » once you have been victimized a few times, you learn a way of carrying yourself, where to go and when, which blocks are shady and which are safe, how to talk, walk, dress, etc. Plus, broadly speaking the area has simply become much safer than it was back then.
Well, both of us seem to be on-line tonight
"how to talk, walk, dress, etc." that and 15 lbs after college (:() helped. Mostly it became "my 'hood" not "theirs." Inclusionary, despite color, race, creed, etc.
Funny, but hugely aggravating, thing happened to me before moving. Fall of 2003, after way to much hype about the 'hood, trendies moving in, folks like us moving out, I see a new-comer black-owned & run real estate agency taking a young (a young up-n-coming 20 something) lady (you can guess race here, no offense meant!) leaving their office to (I guess) going to look at a rental. The main relator says "the neighborhood has come a long way, but used to be better before folks like him (pointing at me :evil:) showed up."
WTF? My replay was, "sorry to interrupt your description of Ft. Greene, but who the fuck are you telling me it was BETTER before I move in! I have been here since 1987!" (I am being nice here, my language was a bit stronger).
Neddless to say they were terribly embarrassed, I was pissed, shot another dirty look and walked off to my apt. I hope she did not rent from them.
That is the unfortunate back-lash my wife and I (and white friends, sorry but true) got from the influx of middle to upper class blacks moving BACK into the ''nabe.
It was a great mix of working class/middle class folks of all kinds for some many years...time for us to move.
Hopefully GWH will not have the same transformation. I LOVE the diversity of my new(er) 'nabe! A word or two from the highest point in Brooklyn--Greenwood Hts.
...elevation, not just inebriation... -
Wow, that's incredibly rude. Yeah, sometimes I get irritated b/c I see people looking at me like I'm part of the newcomer wave, too. But such is life.
-
Sisterof cain sounds lik eone of those white persons who is afraid of any black person even if he is a wall street executive. do us a favor and move to bensonhurst.. you would not have to worry about running into any " violent black people". bensonhurst has their poor white trash, crack addict, mugging, race hating, criminal enviornment there. And another thing... white people aren't angels either. I knew a woman who thought as you do always assuming some black man was going to mug her or rape her and when she did get mugged it was in her own neighborhood by some young white punks. she ended up in the hospital . pity
Welcome! Please log in to post, or register a new account!