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Just looking for a general opinion of the area from locals - I'm looking at an apt on the 1300 block of St Johns Pl for my boyfriend and myself. I was there on Sunday and the area was bustling! But I don't know the area at night and on weekdays when everyone isn't out at church. I've seen that there are recent crimes on some crime websites but that may or may not affect how safe one feels while out and about. I'm a female, seemingly Caucasian (Middle Eastern, really) and sometimes come home after dark. My boyfriend is Nigerian. I honestly don't foresee any problems but I want to cover all my bases, get some opinions from those who live in the area and see what's what. Thanks!
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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My office is on St. Johns between Schenectady and Troy. Been there over eight years and I like it quite a bit. But then I'm not here after 5pm. I've never had a problem and the people in the neighborhood are very nice. Many of the stores on Utica are open late and Anthony's Grill on the corner of St. Johns and Utica seems pretty nice and a little upscale. There's also a police camera on the post on the corner of Utica and St. Johns.
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In my experience, Utica is the border of where I always seem to draw some undue attention.
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Crap neighborhood. Schenectady is a gang prone/shooting prone/drug prone location (as is Troy Ave). The area is generally noisy, dirty, and crime ridden. Lots of less desireable neighbor types are out at all times of the night.
And that's the way it is. -
Thanks for the replies. I expected a mixed response and that's pretty much what I got! Concerned a bit but hopeful that it would be a good place to live for a while. It's affordable and close to the subway.
Anyone have any advice about getting home from work past dark? For anyone who thinks it's not a safe area, would you go so far as to carry mace? That dangerous? Or does the normal vigilance of knowing where you are and being aware of your surroundings just apply?
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For a safe ride/walk home:
http://brooklynian.com/forum/park-slope/alert-sexual-attack-in-park-slope
Brooklyn Bike Patrol here... Even though you don't always see us, we are always on duty. Ladies, if you need an escort home, please don't hesitate to call us at 718-744-7592. You can see the faces of our volunteers on our facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/brooklynBIKEpatrol. Our hours of operation are Sunday - Thursday 8pm - 12am, and Fridays-Saturdays 8pm - 3am. But if you need us outside our regular hours, please call ahead of time. We now cover 45 train stations. We service these areas, Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Ft.Greene, Crown Heights, Sunset Park, Kensington, Windsor Terrance, Clinton Hill, Borough Park, Bushwick, Williamsburg, Bed-Sty and Carroll Gardens. We are dedicated to the safety of the women of Brooklyn.
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I'm pretty sure that mace is illegal in NYC.
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Maggi-
Depending on things like how much you have to spend, and how far you are willing to ride the subway to get to Manhattan....
You may want to consider some of the further out neighborhoods that have less crime. The area around Brooklyn College comes to mind. Lots of apartments for pretty reasonable rates if you have a good credit rating.
...there are also large swaths of Queens that have lower crime rates, for about the same rent.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Pepper spray/Mace are not illegal, but purchases must be made at an authorized pharmacy or firearms dealer and a registration form must be filled out.
http://selfdefenses.com/forcespray/NYSpraylaw.html
If you like the Prospect Heights/Crow Hill area, but you're on a budget, I would look south of Eastern Parkway to the west of Rogers Ave, and in Prospect Lefferts Gardens.
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that street is very very busy. I lived in east flatbush, not too far from there and i don't know if i could live on that end of st johns.
Designer.Photographer.Innovator. -
Being '...seemingly caucasian' (i.e. 'passing for White') puts you in the category of 'risky prey' by the local would-be felons, and therefore you're too valuable a socially constructed 'commodity' to rob, rape, or maim in any pragmatic or fashionable way.
Your Nigerian boyfriend, on the other hand, better watch his back. He is potentially subject to all sorts of horrors, as his type is a dime a dozen,so-to-speak; or at least will be perceived as such.
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You're right about that, MHA, although conversely it does set her up for a different sort of harassment (more pragmatic, if you will).
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MHA, how would my boyfriend be more "at risk?" I guess I don't understand the dynamic you're implying.
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I believe he is describing the phenomena in which the resident knuckleheads like to show new people who share their hue that they are in charge.
The "logic" seems to be something like this: "I may not be as smart as you, or have as much education, or have ever had a job, BUT for the next 90 seconds I will intimidate you. Because -as a result of sharing my hue-, you make me angry, in a way that others don't. "
While your boyfriend is likely to get this BS in Crown Heights from other people who share his hue, I think it happens anytime an individual member of a socially constructed group is seen as exceeding the locally defined norms about what degree success should be achieved, or is even achievable.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Whynot, thanks for your reply. I can assure anyone with that point of view that we're both just quiet, friendly hard-working people looking for a place to live. Thanks again, whynot!
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I live 2 blocks from there and really like the neighborhood. I know my neighbors and everyone is really friendly and welcoming. My husband, our roommates and myself (all caucasian) walk home from the subway stop sometimes late at night and knock on wood haven't had any trouble. That said, like anywhere be alert and if you can take a car service after midnight or so, do it. A lot of te crime seems gang related so I don't feel like I am really a target and generally feel safe.
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As a white woman, this is a very safe neighborhood, as others have said. There is a rash of iPhone snatchings as in other NYC neighborhoods, so I would keep your smart phone in your pocket when you're walking down the street.
St. Johns from Kingston to Utica has a lot of police stop-and-frisk activity on it, so you and your boyfriend may want to be up on your rights in a police encounter:
http://www.nyclu.org/publications/palm-card-what-do-if-youre-stopped-police-english-and-spanish-2004
People get stopped all the time on their way home, to work, to school, and any interaction with the police is potentially dangerous. -
Forget the mace/pepper spray. I routinely carry a Smith and Wesson 5946 and a Glock 26 whenever I'm in that area.
This debate over white/black victim rates is a little silly. Far more white people are victimized in robberies, burglaries and grand larcenies (phone snatch). One of the reasons is not racial but instead a result of them having their heads up their ass. Newer residents (recent transplants from various fly-over states) leave their windows open or unlocked on fire escapes, they don't use existing security gates on the windows, walk around with their iphone glues to the side of their head, walk around staring at their iPhone or iPad screen, leave their purse on the back of the chair in a bar, the list goes on...Lock your doors, lock your windows, and PAY ATTENTION to what's going on around you.
BTW...lots of gunplay in that general area lately.
And that's the way it is. -
echos Mamacita.
An atheist once said to an evangelical Christian in the British Isles: “If I believed what you say you believe, I would cross Britain upon my knees on broken glass to tell men about it.” -
I believe Paraderest is describing the phenomena in which some resident newbies act as if a neighborhood is almost crime free, based on a combination of political correctness and naivete.
While a recent move from a fly-over state may provide an partial explanation, there seems to be more at play.
For example, I have the sense that some of the newbies seem to NOT lock their windows, put away their IPad2, and be aware of their surroundings because they feel doing so is somehow "racist".
This is a special subset of newbies; One which fails to see that the long term residents of the neighborhood (regardless of their hue) engage in every "safety habit" Paraderest describes.
As a result of believing that they can somehow change the world AND/OR simple naivete, the aforementioned newbies become easy prey for neighborhood's resident knuckleheads.
Take Away Message: While we all do not (...and should not) have to carry a Glock or Mace, there are a lot of basic things residents can do to reduce their risk.
While an ultra liberal arts education may have destroyed the ability of the aforementioned subset of newbies to listen to their gut, there is hope: They may still be able to learn valuable knowledge from long term residents, and feel virtually no guilt as a result of implementing it.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I always carry a mugger iPad.
i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness -
Perhaps the NYPD could create a updated version of Muggable Mary, complete with Ipad2 and Indiana University sweatshirt
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Is a mugger iPad like a decoy so when you're held up you give the mugger a broken one?
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maggi2521, oftentimes when someone asks about a specific neighborhood the people on here give the usual "walk around at all hours, it depends on where you're coming from, it's really a nice area if you put away your valuables, stay alert, and say hi to all your neighbors." I think people sometimes go a little far in talking up areas and aren't completely honest.
BUT in this case, you're not getting any of that. You're being told to find alternative options. Take that heavily into consideration.
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tateinbk said:
Is a mugger iPad like a decoy so when you're held up you give the mugger a broken one?Old-school mugger wallet: decoy wallet with $20 for ransom
Mugger iPad: 1st gen iPad as disposable decoy to protect your iPad 2 or new iPad, of course.
Ha. With the lack of support anymore the joke's sooo on them.
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While Glocks and Ipads without support are pretty effective, this podcast provides additional ways to deal with neighborhood crime:
Vera’s director, Michael Jacobson, talks to Robert J. Sampson, Henry Ford II Professor of the Social Sciences at Harvard University, about his long-term study of Chicago, in which he examined the relationship between neighborhood-level characteristics and crime rates. In neighborhoods where “collective efficacy”—the willingness of neighbors to join forces to combat social ills—is absent, Sampson found higher crime rates as well as lower levels of cooperation with law enforcement agencies.
Granted, these methods may be more long term in nature.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
ParadeRest said:
Forget the mace/pepper spray. I routinely carry a Smith and Wesson 5946 and a Glock 26 whenever I'm in that area.This debate over white/black victim rates is a little silly. Far more white people are victimized in robberies, burglaries and grand larcenies (phone snatch). One of the reasons is not racial but instead a result of them having their heads up their ass. Newer residents (recent transplants from various fly-over states) leave their windows open or unlocked on fire escapes, they don't use existing security gates on the windows, walk around with their iphone glues to the side of their head, walk around staring at their iPhone or iPad screen, leave their purse on the back of the chair in a bar, the list goes on...Lock your doors, lock your windows, and PAY ATTENTION to what's going on around you.
BTW...lots of gunplay in that general area lately.
When I lived in CH my stupid downstairs neighbors (a collective of nice gay white dudes) had a huge huge huge IMac right in the front window. Needless to say they got robbed.
Honestly I wouldn't move anywhere where I had to worry about robberies or gun violence. You can get a place somewhere off the Queens Boulevard train lines (E/F/M/R/V) for the same money and not have to worry about being robbed or raped. It's not even the hard criminals, it's all the folks in need of mental care who aren't getting it that you need to worry about.
And MHA's assertion that your boyfriend would be in any danger is silly. If he doesn't present himself as a threat or opportunity he will be left alone. But the fact that that is even something he has to consider should be a red flag.
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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BTW, the area we are discussing has an youth organization that is working to stop the violence.
If you know a youth who would be interested in joining, recruitment efforts are presently underway for the 2012 - 2013 cadre.
Snazzy recruitment video: https://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/cfs-ak-snc7/v/437585/733/315187601902182_63731.mp4?oh=585157f73f6df404e6e991169dcd1065&oe=4FDB6620&__gda__=1339778592_3dce8880a700b051161dfb8c8d7c6b8b
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
how anyone could describe that area as "very safe" is beyond me.
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CTK - Oops, just noticed your above post from this morning was gummed up in the works so I released it.
And replaced the resulting hole with fresh gum.
*runs away
i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness -
Lol thanks jeffrey
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Silly CTK?
If memory serves, you moved out of Brooklyn because you and your ol' White lady got tired of being harassed by the locals. Didn't you mention she got verbally accosted, and you the Melanin Carrier in the relationship, weren't you often taken to opining about how Black women treat Black men in relationships with White girls with askance?What I was bringing to the fore is the irony that being Black and male too often subjects you to White male angst as you walk down the street, White female angst as you walk down the street, Black male resentment as you walk down the street (as pointed out by WhyNot) and Black female angst who see, yet again, '..another good bruvah in the hands of some white woman...' Not to mention the police who look at you warily -- don't wear any hoodies Nigerian Guy -- and the shopowners and their employees who want to say 'wassup' to you as if to ease the perceived race/class gulf.
Also, Black life is perceived as less valuable than white life, ergo, there are likely to be more race/class stressors on homeboy.
How is that silly?
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I think the self-defeating, myopic mentality we are describing is far more stupid than silly.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Oy Dude, not again.... Not gonna do it.
I've seen where you live dude,and you are definitely higher on the hog than I am. You can afford to call my perspective what you want -- literally... What are the views from that broad street like?
You can call unfortunate aspects of the Black experience anything you want WN31, but it is what it is..., You state a truth though, albeit unknowingly, and that is that there is a vision of the world that is being perceived, and that perception is a subjective experience, but, that doesn't make it less real. One can choose not to see it, which is delusional, or one can choose to see it and have it affect your person, which is unhealthy, or one can choose to see it, call the devil the devil when the context requires it, and live your life with vigilance. I call this last perspective the Beautiful Struggle [or BS for short ;)], but you can consider it a 'self-defeating, myopic mentality' if you want to. That's just the way your baby blue eyes see the world dude...
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We both seem to understand the roots of phenomena, where we differ is whether the attitude is universally shared by those sharing similar hues and background.
...we also seem to differ on whether the perspective is constructive or destructive.
The roles and players may change, but The Struggle will likely outlast us all.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I get it: My perspective is destructive and yours is constructive. My perspective is self defeating and stupid, and yours is victorious and smart... Ah, I see. I live my life in my skin, you in yours, I describe what it is to live in this skin and you inadvertently in yours, and you presume that the world is as you live it. How more arrogant can you be? Okay -- cool. Not going there with you man. Man, life must be really great living on that broad street with a great view. You really have summed up what life is like for everyone else on the planet Whynot. thanks.
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Destructive and constructive? Victorious? Smart?
Nah, both perspectives are valid, and -in the right circumstances- constructive.
This is more about the struggle for self determination and identity. I think most people can relate to it, but (as you point out) the lucky do not have the same necessity to do so.
This is about deciding how to live one's life, and not judging those who disagree with you; who have chosen a "different path".
When I think about it, revolution and struggle has a time and a place, and each person gets to decide whether now is THE time and THE place for them.
...and how they wish to go about it. ...and what constitutes success and failure. ...and which struggles are worth fighting.
All I know is that when someone "rises up" and it is NOT the time or the place, one can either view it as being defeated, or as sacrificing for the larger struggle.
It think all of us are willing to sacrifice when they believe it plays a part in the larger struggle. ...while I may (or may not) agree with their choices, anyone who lives their lives according to such principles seems healthy to me.
...yet prisons, graveyards, and rehabs seem to be full because they lack the power to overcome the larger forces of the world.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Okay Che' I get your point. The revolution will not be televised, so in the meantime let's diddle each other's social constructs, eat bespoke foods, wear gourmet clothes, live in handcrafted homes, ride overpriced fix-wheeled bicycles, walk about with prurient pooches, yap into steel-brushed phones, and drink expensive coffee. Peace on earth and good will to all hipsters.
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Clearly, some want AND ARE ABLE to live that way.
...the Law of Scarcity is clearly real, but clearly selectively applied.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
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Mama-
I am sorry, but I will be unable to tell you how to live your life either.I can think of three succinct quotes on the topic:
1. "Do not go to war without an army"
2. "The enemy has us surrounded. ...We can attack in any direction"
3. (variation on #2):
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
This is about deciding how to live one's life, and not judging those who disagree with you; who have chosen a "different path".
MHA's point, and one which I think has a lot of validity, is that the decision how to live one's life is quite dependent on how much at odds with life one happens to be at the time. Which in turn has a lot to do with the relative lack of equality of opportunity within this country.
That said, when compared to others, this country does have a HUGE amount of opportunity afforded to even its lowliest, most disadvantaged denizens.
I'm also not convinced throwing your iPhone in the nearest trash actually has a positive effect on social outcome for anyone short of its potential finder.
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Yes, and the jobs many see as being "beneath them", were seen by many of our grandparents as jobs they coveted. The vast majority of the world is currently worse off than most of our grandparents were.
Wealth, Happiness and success are all relative. I think most feel nothing but admiration for those who have achieved wealth, happiness and success despite larger obstacles.
Most of the world would love to live on St. John's and Utica, but I think I would keep looking.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I worked out there for years. As a white girl I was left alone except some cat calls. People seemed to generally assume I was there for a reason and not just "hanging out" because of that...once I was asked if I needed help because they thought I was lost (I was trying to figure out if I should take the 46 or the 17 to get to Clarkson since they take the same time but one runs for frequently - I was not lost.) but never was I bothered in a real way.
That said, I saw people running from gunfire, I saw blood on the sidewalk, I heard people screaming, I saw fistfights, I saw cops arrest groups of men off of the street, I saw/heard ridiculous livery vans racing up and down Utica...
I wouldn't recommend it to a friend. There's not much to do out there and few non-chains for eating at. But if you want solid subway service and cheaper rents it's not the worst idea either. Just meet neighbors. Say hello. Be friendly
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MHA said:
Silly CTK?
If memory serves, you moved out of Brooklyn because you and your ol' White lady got tired of being harassed by the locals. Didn't you mention she got verbally accosted, and you the Melanin Carrier in the relationship, weren't you often taken to opining about how Black women treat Black men in relationships with White girls with askance?Yes, my now wife was getting harassed, but I wasn't. I wanted to leave mainly because of the quality of life issues ranging from issues with the apartment to issues with neighbors in the building to having my car broken into + bike stolen to the loud parties + music etc. And I don't know what you are talking about as far as black women white women... all my homegirls from back home had nothing but congratulations and love for us when we told them we were getting married, and nobody in the neighborhood said anything to us, at least while I was there or that I knew about. Stop projecting.
MHA said:
What I was bringing to the fore is the irony that being Black and male too often subjects you to White male angst as you walk down the street, White female angst as you walk down the street, Black male resentment as you walk down the street (as pointed out by WhyNot) and Black female angst who see, yet again, '..another good bruvah in the hands of some white woman...' Not to mention the police who look at you warily -- don't wear any hoodies Nigerian Guy -- and the shopowners and their employees who want to say 'wassup' to you as if to ease the perceived race/class gulf.Also, Black life is perceived as less valuable than white life, ergo, there are likely to be more race/class stressors on homeboy.
How is that silly?
Its silly because its not at all reflective of my experience, and if anything is prob more reflective of your own confirmation bias (remember Vespagate?)
There were only two people in the neighborhood who directly "confronted" or dealt with me- a crackhead who I found riding my bike, and an old cokehead who tried to befriend me so he could ask me for money. I wore hoodies all the time when I rode my bike and had no problems w/cops. I didn't really notice any white women shrieking and crossing the street when I walked around alone. Other than that, I got along fine with the few neighbors I interacted with, as well as my gym & music buddies, and didn't really have problems with anybody.
Your problem seems to be that you think everyone is out to get you, and so when something happens that could possibly remotely be construed as such, you jump on it. Confirmation bias. A black man who does not get involved w/crime is safe in CH, and if he can put up with the quality of life issues its not a bad place to live. Of all the issues I had with CH, MY personal safety was NEVER one of them- I have friends there and go back pretty often. But the personal safety of my wife? You bet it was a priority, and fuck anybody who resents me for moving to keep her safe + happy (among other reasons).
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Well white lady moving with Nigerian dude - whatever you do - don't smile first.... The reasons for this are many and archived within these hallowed virtual walls...
"I'm also not convinced throwing your iPhone in the nearest trash actually has a positive effect on social outcome for anyone short of its potential finder."
Eastbloc - well said... I don't agree, but still, well said. Really great imagery here. Quite eloquent actually.
Whynot -- I get it, shut the hell up cuz this is still the greatest place on earth and millions of minions would love to have the problems of the Black and poor here. But that's just rhetoric dude. The fact is 'folks are in the here and now, and just because we all have the opportunity to make a pop record that makes millions, to play Lotto and win millions, to become successful, the truth is that plausible potential doesn't guarantee such is the case. We lament the Babyblonian indifference that China shows to its population, moving them here and there whenever their version of eminent domain requires people be moved. Here we have 'market forces' that purportedly do the same thing. And when protest is made about it, people shrug like lighting, thunder, and floodwater pushed people away: ''I dunno , force majeur did it.''
That's not an accurate explanation. Market forces in tandem with social forces keep Black and poor people Black and poor. Your normative gaze is just that dude, and it will only see what you choose for it to see. Just remember that.
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MHA-
I do not believe there will ever come a time when we should be satisfied with our progress.Do you?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
MHA do you think there is anything black people can do to help ourselves in this situation?
What do you see as the way out, and whose responsibility is it to create it? You speak of normative gazes and write off people's whose parameters or POV result in a different conclusion than yours, without even acknowledging the faults in your own bias.
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Just released a few more posts mistakenly marked by the spam filter, including CTK's above. Apologies again, will look into wth's going on there.
i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness -
YO dude, I have no desire to go there with you man, seriously. Our mutual animus is old news. Anybody willing to be entertained by it can just read the old stuff. If you think I don't htink every individual has personal responsibility, then you definitiely do not grasp what I am saying. And your obscenity above -- were I to say it I know Homeowner would be on my A** about cursing.
Everyone out to get me? -- well, not everyone... if you're a Black man not living with some degree of paranoia, then, CTK, you are at best naive, and at worst a fool.
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