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The 2012 West Indian Day Parade

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whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

You may think it is only mid-summer, but the West Indian America Day Carnival Association, is busy preparing for this year's events.

...Pop-up stores are already appearing on Washington Avenue, the sounds of musicians and dancers practicing will soon begin to fill the area.

http://wiadcacarnival.org/3d/

Press kit:
http://wiadcacarnival.org/3d/images/docs/wiadcapresskit2012.pdf

WIADCA » OUR 2012 -2013 PRIORITIES

Given the very challenging climate occasioned by a difficult and pervasive financial situation in New York State and hold-over issues from the previous administration, the New WIADCA Team will focus on corrective measures while developing an internal management and organizational structure.

•The following are what we hope to achieve in the short, medium and long terms:

•We will work to repair the public image of the organization given the negative perceptions sustained over the past six (6) months.

•Simultaneously, we will move expeditiously to restore investor (sponsor) confidence in the organization given the mixed and often conflicting messages sent out to the general public and the erroneous perception that WIADCA is in crisis and chaos.

•We will also reassure the stakeholders in the Carnival Festival – mas leaders, steelpan organizations, calypsonians and local elected officials –that the Festivals is alive and well by periodic reporting and communications.

•We will develop a mechanism that allows input from Mas Bands (and leaders), the Steelpan movement, and Calypso organizations that will make for an even more inclusive WIADCA.

•We will aggressively move to beat back negative publicity and to TELL WIADCA’S STORY and not let others tell compromised, corrupted and biased versions of that story for personal or other gain.

•Through our marketing plan we will educate the general populace, the political establishment, and the sponsorship world about the NEW WIADCA TEAM that is charting a NEW DIRECTION while promoting the fact to all concerned that you CAN TRUST THE NEW WIADCA TEAM.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
The Invisible Lines
getting it
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 102

Well, that's a bit ridiculous. When so much shit goes down at the parade EVERY YEAR, there's really no justification in writing such an aggressively defensive press release. At least do the public a favor by acknowledging why those completely accurate perceptions exist. I don't think opposing the parade because of the guaranteed violence is for "personal or other gain," nor are those opinions compromised, corrupted, or biased. People get hurt. People get killed. That's called a "fact," not an "opinion."

# Posted 10 mos ago
cremate
getting it
Joined: Jul '11
Posts: 181

It's only been perceived negatively for 6 months? That's news to me!

# Posted 10 mos ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

anyone got a predictions on how many side parties that would result in deaths or shootings?

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

As I read their press release, it seems to allude to struggles of control and direction within the organizing organization, WIADA.

I imagine those most involved in planning the festival to be "mas leaders, steelpan organizations, calypsonians" as well as sponsors, politicians, food vendors, and city agencies like the police, DOT, and Dept of Sanitation.

...such a diverse group is bound to struggle as a result competing interests.

Needless to say, none of the organizers want violence to be part of the event. ...sadly, violence happens a lot in NYC. In crime prone areas, it continues to surge during big summer holidays.

...I fear this will continue to be the case regardless of whether steel drums and sparkly women are present.

While I have a hard time blaming the organizers for the actions of individuals who attend the sanctioned events and unsanctioned side parties, is it too much to ask that someone (a politician, the police, a leader, etc) step up and say what steps will be taken to try to make Labor Day 2012 be different than Labor Day 2011?

If what they attempt doesn't end up being successful, I'm ok with that.

I just kinda bothers me that we seem to be stating "Yup, some people are going to kill each other, and maybe a bystander. Nothing we can do about it. Enjoy the weekend"

Although it isn't "fair", if you were on the organizing committee at what point would you voluntarily modify the parade in an transparent attempt to show they do not wish to attract intoxicated guys with guns?

Would making the parade a boring arts festival keep the intoxicated guys with guns off the parade route? ...or do they live here already?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

I don't understand why the police don't put end to the illegal side parties.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 10 mos ago
reader
getting it
Joined: May '07
Posts: 188

The party can't last for three days. If they start the party on Friday night as part of the set up, they should have to get a permit and post bonds for each day as a seperate evert. They city must inforce no alcohol rules. If they can ticket people on their stoops on the Slope with a beer, they must agressively deal with alcohol and drugs on the streets. They must take alway all coolers like they did for the St Patricks Day Parade years ago.

Call me cynical, but nothing will be done again. None of this will ever happen, because then we are forcing white culture on a non-white event.

# Posted 10 mos ago
ntfool
above average
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 483

Wow, just occured to me that, post Bed-Stuy move, this will be the first time in ten years that the parade won't be on my doorstep. That's... wonderful!

It isn't that I dislike the parade, I've always enjoyed wandering through and picking up some delicious food. In fact, it isn't even the noise. Its having to sit on my former front stoop for hours and hours every Labor Day just to calmly explain to passerbys that no, they cannot pee in the little alcove adjacent to my front door.

Never again! Woo hoo!

If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

spurn Productions, Inc.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

I tend to agree with AW, in that the problems don't tend to stem from the area business leaders and politicians who attended the events behind the Museum; They tend to happen between people who know each other at side parties.

The city can only enforce the noise, alcohol, weapons and drugs laws to a degree.

....when you have a large number of intoxicated, armed males, they tend to ruin the ability of others to enjoy themselves.

I suspect the police lack the resources required to do much about the situation. They certainly lack the permission.....

I might try to hang out with NTFool this year.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
cremate
getting it
Joined: Jul '11
Posts: 181

I like all the offerings of this festival except for the prospect of being shot. I guess I'll just drink indoors (boring)

# Posted 10 mos ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 10 mos ago
MHA
rocking it
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,352

"The party can't last for three days. If they start the party on Friday night as part of the set up, they should have to get a permit and post bonds for each day as a seperate evert. They city must inforce no alcohol rules. If they can ticket people on their stoops on the Slope with a beer, they must agressively deal with alcohol and drugs on the streets. They must take alway all coolers like they did for the St Patricks Day Parade years ago.

Call me cynical, but nothing will be done again. None of this will ever happen, because then we are forcing white culture on a non-white event."
Reader

I agree with everything you said except the last paragraph. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic here. It would be difficult for me to believe that enforcing a non-alcohol decree would be -- or could be interpreted as 'forcing white culture on a non-white event'. The lack of alcohol enforcement at the Labor Day festivities on Eastern Parkway always struck me as a puzzling thing. I can only see the tolerance of it in the same way the conductor on the Long Island Rail Road never takes the citi tickets on the weekends when the trains are incredibly packed: The very context makes enforcement impossible.

But, still, I think there should be an attempt at enforcement. It would be a great way of raising money for the city. Cops should write tickets for alcohol consumption and if only arrest people in the event that they do not have identification on them to prove who they are.

# Posted 10 mos ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

the city wouldn't do it, simply the specter of the race card.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

The race card is part of it.

But I suspect the police are told to "look the other way" in part because the higher ups do not want to risk the spectacle of any civil unrest.

-People attempting to "free" the friend who is about to be arrested

-People attempting to "protect" the barely dressed woman who is getting a ticket from a cop for having an open container

In my experience, the police behave the same way at state fairs, concerts, and political rallies throughout the world: Intervene only when absolutely necessary.

...because the police know that they are in a tenuous situation, they want the public not to see them as the enemy.

Fight only battles you know you can win.

Who doesn't enjoy a $5 nutcracker (an alcoholic drink sold in a plastic bag)?

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
The Psycho-ologist
big A little a Bouncing B the system may have got you but it won't get me.
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 439

armchair_warrior said:
I don't understand why the police don't put end to the illegal side parties.

How? If you have a party in your back yard, and I have seen this done, where eventually strangers off the street just wander in and the party just gets out of hand, how can the cops stop this? It started out as a private party, often times on someone's property, then as more people arrive it spills out into the streets and attracts strangers. I once knew a maintenance man who literally made the rounds at these things and ate and drank for free at random parties thrown by folks he did not know.

a teaspoon of kisses and a drop of glee

# Posted 10 mos ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

alot of those parties are street parties.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 10 mos ago
mr. met
rocking it
Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 1,407

so what's the over/under on number of shootings and murders during this year's beautiful cultural event?

if we crack down on the alcohol and drugs in the streets, we crack down on CULTURE, which i find unacceptable.

# Posted 10 mos ago
BKChickie
Bagel Hole Girl
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 1,089

The Invisible Lines said:
Well, that's a bit ridiculous. When so much shit goes down at the parade EVERY YEAR, there's really no justification in writing such an aggressively defensive press release. At least do the public a favor by acknowledging why those completely accurate perceptions exist. I don't think opposing the parade because of the guaranteed violence is for "personal or other gain," nor are those opinions compromised, corrupted, or biased. People get hurt. People get killed. That's called a "fact," not an "opinion."

Yes, this.

I don't oppose the parade. I wish it, and the entire carnival weekend, could be conducted without the associated chaos and violence.

Contrasting the all-out police response to the comparatively small OWS protests last year with the let-it-be attitude towards the parade, I have to think that AW is right.

The tone of this press release is offensive to the community. There's no mention of the ongoing problem with violence that stems from this parade, and its omission puts forth a "biased [version] of that story for personal or other gain."

# Posted 10 mos ago
The Psycho-ologist
big A little a Bouncing B the system may have got you but it won't get me.
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 439

mr. met said:
so what's the over/under on number of shootings and murders during this year's beautiful cultural event?

if we crack down on the alcohol and drugs in the streets, we crack down on CULTURE, which i find unacceptable.

As a Black person I hope "culture" isn't a euphemism for blackness, as it often is when we are talking about this type of maladjusted behavior. I am not aiming this comment at you, but I know that often there are other blacks that are so sensitive to the "race thing" that they can't separate being offensive to others as just part of trying to compromise and co-exist (hey loud hip hop offends at 3 am, but so does loud Swans or Foetus)versus people actually being racist.

Loud violent drunks= offensive whether you are Declan O'Malley at the St. Patty's parade or Tyrell Thomas at the West Indian Day parade.

a teaspoon of kisses and a drop of glee

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

mr. met said:
so what's the over/under on number of shootings and murders during this year's beautiful cultural event?

if we crack down on the alcohol and drugs in the streets, we crack down on CULTURE, which i find unacceptable.

While some may differ, I prefer to think of serious criminal behavior (i.e. shooting someone) as being the actions of distinct individuals. Such acts are forbidden around the world ...by every "culture".

Meanwhile, I'm willing to grant that more minor violations of NYC law Re: drug use, public drinking, etc seem to be more widely tolerated, and even celebrated in some areas of the world (i.e. "cultures"). Different societies have different norms, and I'm ok with that.

What I do not know is whether attempting to reduce the alcohol and drug use during a holiday weekend, will reduce the number of killings.

...but I am willing to consider, and perhaps endorse, plans that attempt it.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
The Psycho-ologist
big A little a Bouncing B the system may have got you but it won't get me.
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 439

whynot_31 said:
While some may differ, I prefer to think of serious criminal behavior (i.e. shooting someone) as being the actions of distinct individuals. Such acts are forbidden around the world ...by every "culture".

Meanwhile, I'm willing to grant that more minor violations of NYC law Re: drug use, public drinking, etc seem to be more widely tolerated, and even celebrated in some areas of the world (i.e. "cultures"). Different societies have different norms, and I'm ok with that.

What I do not know is whether attempting to reduce the alcohol and drug use during a holiday weekend, will reduce the number of killings.

...but I am willing to consider, and perhaps endorse, plans that attempt it.

I will argue that alcohol and or drug use is often one of the antecedents to IDIOT behavior. I believe there was a subway campaign that also stated as such: "three drinks ago he would have walked away.." it read, if I remember correctly.

I think this is why this kind of violence always seems to happen at clubs, concerts or parties, versus, camping trips, or beach expeditions, where alcohol might not be as heavily involved with the events.

I think there are even terms for the stupidity that Alcohol causes in terms of violence and sexual indiscretion:

Dutch courage
beer goggles

a teaspoon of kisses and a drop of glee

# Posted 10 mos ago
The Invisible Lines
getting it
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 102

BKChickie said:
Yes, this.

I don't oppose the parade. I wish it, and the entire carnival weekend, could be conducted without the associated chaos and violence.

Contrasting the all-out police response to the comparatively small OWS protests last year with the let-it-be attitude towards the parade, I have to think that AW is right.

The tone of this press release is offensive to the community. There's no mention of the ongoing problem with violence that stems from this parade, and its omission puts forth a "biased [version] of that story for personal or other gain."

Agreed completely. I don't oppose the parade at all; in fact, I think it's a really beautiful display of West Indian culture. The music, food, costumes, etc. of the entire event are amazing. Unfortunately I don't feel safe enough to enjoy it first-hand, and I think it's safe to say that's a widespread feeling, which is a shame. Drunken violence isn't inborn in any culture, it just shows up in subcultures that are attached to practically all ethnic groups. I don't foresee the violence ever being eradicated from the event, no matter the intensity of police presence and activity. In fact, the more presence and arrests/ticketing that is done may actually increase the violence. Tension would grow, tempers would flare, and intoxicated minds forgo reasoning and ignore consequence. When that happens you can expect a dead cop, and dead bystanders who got caught in the crossfire. The parade itself is beautiful. It's the idiots who mar it that gives it its stigma.

I also agree that the tone of the PR is insulting to the community. Even if Whynot_31 is correct in saying it's about the tension within the planning organization itself (which I think is the case), it still does come off as standoffish and inappropriately defensive. They could have at least added a post script saying, "Oh, and sorry for all of those who don't feel safe leaving their apartment for fear of getting shot in the goddamn face."

# Posted 10 mos ago
ntfool
above average
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 483

whynot_31 said:I might try to hang out with NTFool this year.

You, your lovely wife and your dog are more than welcome.

If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

spurn Productions, Inc.

# Posted 10 mos ago
BKChickie
Bagel Hole Girl
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 1,089

The Psycho-ologist said:Loud violent drunks= offensive whether you are Declan O'Malley at the St. Patty's parade or Tyrell Thomas at the West Indian Day parade.

Agree.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

I agree with Psycho-ologist as well.

In NYC, the St. Patrick's Day parade and New Year's Eve are two events that have similar levels of rowdiness and intoxication to the West Indian Day Parade.

Clearly, such public displays of rowdiness are not for everyone.

As the Invisible lines alludes, we have multiple problems:

-the organizers of this parade aren't to blame for the violence that accompanies it

-the organizers clearly lack an effective PR strategy to counter said undeserved image problems.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
cremate
getting it
Joined: Jul '11
Posts: 181

I don't think you can compare the St Patty's Day one to this. First off it has infinitely more people at it. It has tourists and all types of folks, and theres generally never been a death that I know of. I also never feared for my life there; maybe just getting arrested for drinking, or getting thrown up on.

Does the PR day parade have the violence problems? Maybe it IS a cultural problem? Or maybe its the location?

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

I won't use the term "cultural problem".

...but will state that the obvious: It is certainly statistically correct to state that some demographics have greater portions of their populations imprisoned for assault and murder.

Of course, there are lots of reasons for these over and under representations. Thousands of books have been written on the topic.

Suffice it to say, I tend to lean toward the ones that focus on long standing social conditions and problems.

I argue that such conditions and problems clearly seem to manifest themselves on holiday weekends, but can't be convinced that they are the fault of women in tiny, sparkly outfits and speakers on 18 wheelers.

I'm not ready to ban "music trucks and sparkly women" because people with said problems tend to gravitate toward them in a way that the St Patrick's day parade and New Years does not.

...but I certainly might hang out with Ntfool this year.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 903

I don't see drugs and alcohol as inherently violence-inducing substances. At least, I don't personally agree that they are, based on my experience.

It's an endlessly difficult problem to determine for whom these things may become an insurmountable problem. I have no quick solutions, either.

I can only suggest as a multiple victim of what I would describe as arbitrary policing that our local law enforcement brigade in fact does have the resources to go after habitual lawbreakers in the body of the parade. They do not do so for reasons stated well by others above.

Let it be, folks. I don't see any reason to go out and confront the parade, or any of its organizers or participants. I kind of like it. I also like being sequestered away from it in my backyard. It is what it is. I do think the NYPD should enforce the law, but I recognize and respect their desire not to get in the way.

This parade has been there a long time. I don't really think there's any reason to see it as threatening, unless you're the sort to finish a beef someone else has started.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

armchair_warrior said:
anyone got a predictions on how many side parties that would result in deaths or shootings?

Of course, I hope no one dies or is shot and would like nothing more than to be seen as a pessimist after the fact.

That said, here are my predictions:

There will be 3 people shot at (or within .5 miles) of the overnight party, Juve.

The events behind the museum will be violence free, as they often are.

On the day of the parade and night before, there will be 4 people shot along the parade (or within .5 miles).

The NYPD will arrest more than 10 people for gun possession at Juve, and along the parade route.

Depending upon what media you read about the event, the media will report that the police were either heavy handed, or stood by and did nothing.

Most media will have pictures of the women in sparkly outfits; Just about Everyone loves them.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
cremate
getting it
Joined: Jul '11
Posts: 181

I'm just mad because it would be a fun time, but its ruined by senseless violence.

On the other hand, I know some folks that have been going there for years and have had no problem. I think they are the type that arrives early and leaves early, though.

# Posted 10 mos ago
reader
getting it
Joined: May '07
Posts: 188

The St Patrick's Day parade has been pretty calm the 15 years or so. Lots of teenagers, as wells lots of NYPD and FDNY participation as well as veterans plus heavy handed inforcement of alcohol rules makes it less prone to violence. Coolers are inspected and confiscated at the Port Authority and Grand Central as well as on the street. I'm not saying that people don't get very drunk, they do at many of the bars that see St Pat's day as the equivalent of Black Friday at Walmart.

I can't think of any shootings, stabbings or murders at the St Pat's Parade in recent memory.

The rowdiest parade in recent history in Manhattan was the Puerto Rican Day Parade I think in 1999, with multiple sexual assults, property damage etc.

This is when they started working on the rules to limit the
size and time of the parades.

The same rules should apply to this event, tickets, confiscation of alcohol, and they dont. No one get arrested for obvious use of drugs either, etc. The fact is that the cops are told to back off and not engage - it is the most hated assignment of all events in the city. They are not allowed to enforce but if something goes wrong they are blamed.

# Posted 10 mos ago
tateinbk
above average
Joined: Jun '11
Posts: 503

Growing up, the day of the PR day Parade was a day to stay inside. '99 may have been the worst, but violence has plagued the parade. As reader pointed out, sexual assaults were high. The PR day parade has gotten increasingly better to the extent that I think last year there were no incidents. The organizers of the West Indian Day parade should really be having a lot of sit downs with the Puerto Rican Day parade. If it can be done with the latter, it stands to reason it should be possible with the WI parade.

# Posted 10 mos ago
armchair_warrior
retsop cixelsyd
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 7,946

I stay home and not ride the trains on PR and DR days when i was younger wasn't safe for me. Gotten swing at many times for just being me.

Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

Tate-
It would be interesting to see if professionals in the field of criminology and crown control thought that changes the police and organizers made at the PR parade should get most of the credit for its decreased violence.

Or, should the changing demographics (wealth, education, families) of New York's Puerto Ricans get most of the credit for the decreased violence?

If it is the latter (or some combination), do we have to wait until the demographics of those attending the parade changes?

We are allowed to do somethings to help these demographic shifts take place, right?

Can we figure out ways to make the parade itself AND the weekend parties, more attractive to families and less attractive to young men?

AW-
Yup.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
booklaw
admin
Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 2,409

Making it less attractive to young men might require less booze, fewer drugs, and more conservative attire on the "spangly" young women.

But then, what would be the point of attending the parade?

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

Or, for that matter, appearing in the parade.

I find it hard to believe that said women are wearing these outfits largely for the attention/eyes of the demographic I most closely fit.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
cremate
getting it
Joined: Jul '11
Posts: 181

What about my other thought: Perhaps its the parade route?

Those others are in the city where as this is in CH.

If thats the case it could mean its not even the parade goers, drugs/alcohol, or those involved in the parade, but rather just the riff raff in the area. It seems like the uneducated and hopeless like to end others' fun.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

Cremate-
I like the idea, but caution that state fairs, amusement parks, and the city of Daytona Fl have shown to me that some of the "uneducated and hopeless" will travel to attend such events.

...but agree that the distant events seem less violent, and more under control.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
BKChickie
Bagel Hole Girl
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 1,089

cremate said:
I'm just mad because it would be a fun time, but its ruined by senseless violence.

On the other hand, I know some folks that have been going there for years and have had no problem. I think they are the type that arrives early and leaves early, though.

Agree! You've got to get on and off that parade route by 2pm, at the latest.

I don't know what the parade/violence connection is, but it *is* there. It's fine to say don't blame the parade, but...

If, as children, my sister and I fought constantly over a toy, then that toy was pretty soon taken away from us. The fighting wasn't the toy's fault, but the toy was certainly a catalyst for the fighting. That's a very simplistic explanation of how I feel about the parade. It's not the parade's fault, but like it or not, it is a catalyst for violence.

# Posted 10 mos ago
BKChickie
Bagel Hole Girl
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 1,089

Here's a question: is New Orleans's Mardi Gras statistically safter than the parade? I don't hear about people being killed at Mardi Gras (though I will admit that I don't particularly follow news of NOLA,) and I suspect that it would be a tourism/PR nightmare for the city if shootings around the carnival events started being regular occurrences during Mardi Gras.

# Posted 10 mos ago
MHA
rocking it
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 1,352

I think it dangerous to link the world 'culture' with activities universally agreed to be criminal. The only way Cremate's argument makes any sense is if he is saying drugs, alcohol and the violence that often accompanies it, is an AMERICAN problem, but I fear the worst here. I believe he is saying that it is a Black problem ~at worst, and at best a class problem.

Methinks that none of us have answers to these questions, and at best we can only exercise a calculus to best answer these questions by getting one of those Freakonomics guys to crunch the numbers and use the variables to best construct a context which wil create the strongest deterrent for crime.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

Despite what Criminologists and Freakonomics guys may state, I think we have to be able to figure out this problem thru a process of listening to their ideas, but then largely depending upon trial and error.

However, no one (police, politicans, parade organizers, etc) seems willing to attempt an experiment as a result of the backlash that would occur.

Above, I made a somber prediction of how I thought this years parade would go in terms of violence. Does any one else dare make a prediction?

P.S. this week's mass killing in Colorado has made this conversation look almost petty.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
Jack Krohn
My Baby's Gone Shootin'
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 1,063

Regarding the comparisons to the St. Patrick's Day parade, I'm pretty sure the WI Parade attracts more people. Also, many of them are tourists - just because they are not white does not mean they live in NYC.

My chief concern is that NY's finest get their fair share of gyrating beauties, as captured on video last year. That's the only day of the year I wish I was a cop.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

I hear you, Jack.

...but I also think the parade organizers may be exaggerating the number number of people who attend the events, and the economic impact. $300 million? 4 million people?

Don't get me wrong, it is the job of such organizations to present the best side of their events, and perhaps exaggerate a little in the process. ....but I suspect the numbers get thrown around by some in an attempt to state, "The West Indian Day carnival is great for the city, and loved by the 99.999% of the people who don't experience violence."

I mean if 4M people attend, you could have 40 people shot and the (if shooting were a random occurrence) the odds would be something like 0.00001. Beings that such shootings are really only random when the shooter is a bad shot, or is out to slaughter random people, the odds are even lower.

Now in its 45th year this annual event continues to draw mega-crowds from all over the world. It brings in a conservative estimate of over $300 million to New York City’s coffers. This is remarkable because the organization that puts on this spectacular shindig, the West Indian American Day Carnival Association (WIADCA), is a non-profit entity dedicated to promoting and preserving the culture of the Caribbean Diaspora in New York.

In fact, the annual Carnival Festival is now the largest outdoor Summer event in North America drawing over 4 million people to the 3-mile strip along Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn. But the Festival starts a week before this event with daily and nightly events at the grounds of the Brooklyn Museum. So come join us AUGUST 30 to SEPTEMBER 3RD and Experience A TASTE OF THE CARIBBEAN in New York!!

http://wiadcacarnival.org/3d/images/docs/wiadcapresskit2012.pdf

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
BKChickie
Bagel Hole Girl
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 1,089

I'd like to see the source for the four million number. It certainly FEELS like four million people, but I doubt it's more than a few hundred thousand. Still--that's an impressive number, and based on the number of out-of-state plates I see during and around Carnival time, it's obvious that a lot of people travel to be here.

For me, it's all about the street food, and if WIADCA did a culinary tour of Crown Heights and Flatbush as some kind of fundraiser I would be all over that. All. Over.

# Posted 10 mos ago
xlizellx
rocking it
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,580

BKChickie said:

For me, it's all about the street food, and if WIADCA did a culinary tour of Crown Heights and Flatbush as some kind of fundraiser I would be all over that. All. Over.

Yes! I would go to that in a heart beat!

# Posted 10 mos ago
The Psycho-ologist
big A little a Bouncing B the system may have got you but it won't get me.
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 439

whynot_31 said:
Or, for that matter, appearing in the parade.

I find it hard to believe that said women are wearing these outfits largely for the attention/eyes of the demographic I most closely fit.

You don't know a lot of West Indian women do you?
Unless they are Jamaican, they will sample the rainbow of meat, before they marry. Should you ever be single or interested,......pssst... Trini women....Just Saying

a teaspoon of kisses and a drop of glee

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

This article, written about how the organizers of the parade seem overwhelmed by its success, was published in 1998.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/17/nyregion/success-of-west-indian-parade-brings-dissension.html?src=pm

To me, it still rings true.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,109

The Psycho-ologist said:
You don't know a lot of West Indian women do you?
Unless they are Jamaican, they will sample the rainbow of meat, before they marry. Should you ever be single or interested,......pssst... Trini women....Just Saying

I'd like to think I can use your advice in my next life.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 10 mos ago
cremate
getting it
Joined: Jul '11
Posts: 181

I meant culture in the traditional sense. People from the west indies that live in a certain way, and have particular customs (MHA that means whether white, black, or brown). I was asking if that specific culture could breed violence for some reason. Then I offered the counter point of the PR parade not having the similar violence (anymore at least) meanwhile they are at least geographically similar.

While I have MHA's attention, maybe he could answer this one for me (albeit slightly off topic). Why do some folks come to the US from the west indies to escape cartel/gov't violence, persecution, poverty, etc... and then protest and condemn the cops when they shoot some criminal that happens to be of their hue (as whynot puts it)?

That question just came to me while watching the news recently, but I guess i can't expect a rational explanation to irrational behavior.

MHA said:
I think it dangerous to link the world 'culture' with activities universally agreed to be criminal. The only way Cremate's argument makes any sense is if he is saying drugs, alcohol and the violence that often accompanies it, is an AMERICAN problem, but I fear the worst here. I believe he is saying that it is a Black problem ~at worst, and at best a class problem.

Methinks that none of us have answers to these questions, and at best we can only exercise a calculus to best answer these questions by getting one of those Freakonomics guys to crunch the numbers and use the variables to best construct a context which wil create the strongest deterrent for crime.

# Posted 10 mos ago

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