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FYI, it was proven that video was actually at least a few years old.
Jack Krohn said:
My chief concern is that NY's finest get their fair share of gyrating beauties, as captured on video last year. That's the only day of the year I wish I was a cop.
Brooklynian » Forum » Crown Heights and Prospect Lefferts Gardens »
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I think Jack is ok with being a cop for a day, and having said day be several years ago as opposed to merely last year.
Does this mean that last year was worse than we already believed?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
BKChickie said:
Here's a question: is New Orleans's Mardi Gras statistically safter than the parade? I don't hear about people being killed at Mardi Gras (though I will admit that I don't particularly follow news of NOLA,) and I suspect that it would be a tourism/PR nightmare for the city if shootings around the carnival events started being regular occurrences during Mardi Gras.People are killed DURING Mardi Gras just like people are killed DURING these events in Brooklyn. That doesn't mean people are killed AT these events. IRC, no one was killed AT the parade last year or the year prior, but people were certainly shot/and or killed during the festivities at events not affiliated with the organization putting together these events.
It's really sad that people cannot make a distinction between the two like Arm Chair did. I almost feel like some people will attribute this to ALL black people and their dealing just because they're socialized to.
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Too bad there isn't a Sim version of West Indian Day Parade where you can play mayor/borough president/police commissioner and test various scenarios and see what happens without risking anyone's actual safety. I used to love those games growing up and seeing what happened when you tweaked small things within the metropolis.
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A Sim version that reliably showed how crowds would react to various scenarios would be awesome. [sadly, pure whimsy]
A twisted part of me also wonders what would happen if there was a competing event; one which drew away the young men who think bringing a gun or a knife to a parade is a good idea. [also pure whimsy]
On a more serious note:
What if we kept the parade on EP, but made it earlier in the day?
Would having the parade occur between 9 AM and Noon make it less likely to be associated (fairly or not) with violence?
What if we did something counter intuitive, like spread the event out? Immediately after the parade, we could have three free events, capable of hosting 500k people each, in 3 different locations.
By doing these events AT ONCE (instead of one massive event of 2M on EP), could each event become specialized?
For example, following the parade on EP:
1. Food Festival 1 - 4 PM Commodore Perry Park.
2. Concert #1, 1-4 Wingate park
3. Concert #2, 1-4 Floyd Bennett Field...while none of the events would be the massive party that the parade day has become, we could all choose a free event that most met our preference.
Because everyone loves sparkly women and jerk chicken, they'd be featured at each event....
whimsy?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
How about, this little group make a list of all of the empirical factors that create 'tipping points' where violence then occurs?
Here is my theory: That, for the parameter of time that these festivities occur, it possesses the characteristics of a storm; that, in the same way thunder and lightning are emitted at intervals depending upon the presence of certain ELEMENTS, in this case violence is emitted.Instead of us judging the event NORMATIVELY, let us make attempt to observe it CLINICALLY, and try to come up with theory that will enable the event to occur peaceably.
Here are some elements that I think create the problem:
Decibel level of music
Alcohol consumption
Weather (temperature)
Vendor locations
Crowd volume
Sanitation -
I assume that the weekend's sanctioned and unsanctioned events will be largely the same as prior years.
While the police will do their best to confiscate handguns and stop crime as it occurs, should we put devices around the area this year to measure factors (such as decibel level of music,
Alcohol consumption, temperature, Vendor locations, Crowd volume, and Sanitation) , then (after the fact) compare this data to the location of the violent incidents?Can I also suggest putting bracelets on individuals presently on parole or probation, and/or whom have had more than 5 prior arrests?
Will their presence be more of a factor than Decibel level of music, Alcohol consumption, temperature, Vendor locations,
Crowd volume, and Sanitation?...after all, I attend the parade almost every year and have yet to be violent at the event.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Here is what I am thinking Whynot:
This event is 'choreographed', and 'planned' by a committee every year. I think that the collateral crime, pollution and incessant noise that occurs every year impinge upon the quality of life -- and it should be addressed. I don't know what the process is that leads to this event occurring. Does the committee that plans it have to meet with members of the community boards to approve the event occurring? When they fill out a parade permit is there a list of events that they say will happen? Is there an insurance waiver of some sort? I don't see how the parade differs from, say a concert, which I assume impels concert promoters to have some level of duty -- some level of awareness to prevent negligence; some duty of responsibility to the concert-goers. Similarly, it stands to reason that the committee planning and choreographing this event have a similar duty, and there is ample literature and opinion advocating that they are in breach of that duty.
I'm surprised that someone has not sued the city already (maybe the have) to prevent the parade from occurring until the parade organizers can prove they are providing some level of safety and hygiene.
For instance, why is it that there are no sanitation workers who are constantly sweeping up garbage at this event? Why are there no security officers --other than the police at this event? Why are there no first aid facilities at this event? Why are there no water stations or cooling stations at this event? There are so many people who attend, and so little service to protect people in the event of some mishap or misfortune befalling them.
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All good points.
...However, I suspect that the sanctioned events that occur behind the museum are actually subject to all those requirements. As a result of having to impose these "controls", they:
-impose an admission fee
-seem to attract a different crowd
-to my knowledge, are consistently free from violence.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
... I'm not clear what your point is here. Are you implying something about the events on Eastern Parkway? I'm referring to what occurs on the parkway.
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MHA, the parade like other parades in NYC must reimburse the city for some portion of the costs related to security (police) and cleanup (sanitation). How those two things are accomplished then become 100% the determination of NYC. The organizers could (and should) supplement what the city is doing with it's own event staff, but I don't ever see evidence that they have worker bee type staff as contrasted with the queen bee board member types that are all wearing sashes on the viewing stand at parade time.
Everything else you talk about (first aid facilities,water stations or cooling stations) is the responsibility for the planning committee and could, and should be accomplished by them, IF they had the bodies to do it. I would estimate for a parade this size they would need 200-300 volunteers at the actual event, plus another 100-150 that cover things like J'Overt etc.
Part of that may be cultural in that I've never seen a West Indian Carnival that actually had those type of amenities. In the islands, you dance til you drop and the entire community comes out in support. Cleaning and policing aren't really necessary because there isn't the level of knuckleheadedness that is apparent on the Parkway sometimes, and the locals all chip in to do their part once the event is over to get everything cleaned up and back to normal.
I also don't get the impression that there is a lot of cooperative discussion between either the police or the community boards and parade organizers. I said last year that this parade would benefit from better coordination and planning, especially around these issues that they should control. They need more leadership in these areas. One suggestion would be that any participating group must provide a crew of 5-10 to assist in the working of the parade. Those folks could become event staff and that would create a group of bodies that could then be used to handle things like sanitation and assist the police with crowd control.
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After last year's parade, I approached a few of the people on the committee, because I was considering writing an article on how this loose knit group of people comes together and works hard to throw this massive event, and then the whole weekend regularly ends up marred by violence. I wanted to see what motivated them to be on such a committee.
For several reasons, I didn't follow thru.
However, I did meet some of the key players. Two informed me that they felt excluded from key decisions re: the parade and wanted less emphasis on the parade, and more on concerts and food.
One even wanted to "shrink" the parade, by making it less long, but stated that food vendors have a lot of power and want it to be as long as possible; It is reportedly incredibly profitable to sell jerk chicken on Labor Day.
To a degree, the WIADCA has done lots of events for a long time. Here's an event they are throwing this weekend:
I would be surprised if there was a shooting, or even a fist fight.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Agreed. But is there no way of PREVENTING the parade unless they can assure that there are such measures taken?
Surely the community board can voice concern, politicians can voice concern, etc. The event should be prefaced with critiques, concerns, etc....
I'm fascinated by what coordination (or lack thereof) occurs between the police and the organizers of this event. Last year, if I recall, even an elected official was arrested by the police. I am sure there is dialogue occurring about this. Looking at the organizer's website there is reference to volunteers, insurance, etc. But, I think the bar should be higher, needs to be higher. I feel there is a need for more.
A personal note: I recall going to the African Street Festival a few years ago -- or whatever the heck it's called now -- and I had to use the bathroom. I went to the bathroom and it was absolutely filthy. The floor was wet, the toilets in utter shambles, and I felt so embarassed to use it, and infruriated that there was no attendant to maintain it. Think about it, with a high volume of people expected at such an event, why didn't the organizers make efforts to ensure that the patrons would be able use a clean bathroom? The lack of attention to this basic of all details bespeaks the concern that the former has for the latter, and I fear, for the Labor Day festivities, the same might be true.
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In NYC, all public events seem to struggle with giving crowds adequate services and bathrooms.
The 2012 Googa-Mooga thing in Prospect Park was reportedly completely overwhelmed, and they established control over how many people would attend via a ticket entry system.
The cynic in me thinks that city is desperate for revenue, and will lease out the park (or Eastern Parkway) if it generates some $, without much regard for the externalities.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
But -- isn't there a duty of some sort that certain services be provided in the face of a large population convening for any particular event? I'm in a building right now that has emergency defibillator machines near the elevator. In the event that a person has a heart attack, everyone knows where to get the machine. I think that there is some legal obligation to provide these. Is there similarly no such legal obligation by anyone having an event presumed to attract countless thousands?
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I believe it is complicated.
Sometimes the obligations are required by the legal authorities, while other times far more stringent obligations are put in place by those who do things like insure or run the event (or in your example, "building").
My favorite example of this is the rules regarding checking ID's at bars. If a bar caters to a young, male, intoxicated, knucklehead, clientele it scans their ID, runs everyone thru a metal detector wand, and hires intimidating guys to hang around.
Old man bars do very little.
NYC does not formally require former to engage in all of that security, they do it as a result of neighborhood complaints, insurance requirements and the like.
I agree, so far, no entity has been effective at getting the measures put in place. I suspect everyone (NYPD, sponsors, insurance companies, organizers, etc) all claim they do not have the power and/or feel it is not their responsibility.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I've worked as a volunteer at a number of large events and the willingness to do things like provide water, bathroom facilities, etc is entirely dependent on a couple of things, the biggest one being availability of sponsors. At a lot of large corporate events water would be provided by a sponsorship with a water company such as Poland Spring, Pepsi, Coke, etc. Now with DEP setting up water stations at public events, it should be easy to get water if people want it.
I think the best proxy for how this event could be run is the Jerk Chicken Festival which occurred a few weeks ago in Queens. Its the same demographic as the parade, and yet, no shootings, no fights, etc. But the festival is sponsored by Grace, a major corporation that sells West Indian goods both here and in the islands. Therefore, the festival is designed to highlight their products and to reduce the amount of negative things that may be associated with it. It's held in a park so there are plenty of port-o-sans as well as public bathrooms. There is plenty of food sold and lots of water and hydrating drinks to wash it down. There may be some alcohol consumed on the sly, but people know that if they get drunk they will be ejected from the festival.
If the WICADA can't get it together enough to set its own guidelines then there is always only going to be organized chaos. From what I've seen, sponsors tend to focus on the more controlled events (steel pan battle, opening night reception) and have little to no presence in the actual parade or at J'Overt where its basically a free for all.
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I think the biggest sponsors I have seen at the parade sponsor 18 wheelers (ie WBLS, some cell phone companies, Hot 97, etc).
...but, I agree, none sponsor at the level that people associate the parade with their brand.
The largest group that participates seems to be unions: DC 37 "1707" CSEA. I wonder if they could use their numbers and influence to get some changes implemented, or -um- take over the present committee.
I'm sure the police and politicians would love a player that had a year round structure, and is relatively more established and organized.
How could we make the folks at WIDCA desperate enough that they accept help? How could trick an org like the CSEA into believing that playing an official role is a good idea?
P.S. Please tell Grace to have the Jerk Chicken festival in Brooklyn next year.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
[video]
Just as many people, 99% less drama. And Grace does the same festival in Florida as well.
[video]
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In addition to an accountable sponsor, Grace's event seems to have additional advantages:
1. It is not held in close proximity to very troubled neighborhoods.
2. Tickets must be obtained. People without $ and the ability to plan ahead are thus excluded. People who can't comply with a bag search and/or orderly line to get in are excluded.
3. There is a defined beginning and end to the event.
4. The vendors are under the control of Grace. There is less chance of Nutcracker sales.
Several things seem to happen as result: Knuckleheads don't come to the event, and people who have the ability to not act like Knuckleheads realize that this is an occasion to excercise said skill. As a result, people who rarely (if ever) act like Knuckleheads come in droves and set the norms.
Are there sparkly women at Grace events? Do you think they would be harmful to the Brandt's image? I ask because if the parade is ever cancelled they will need a place to perform.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I disagree with the your first point. It's held in Jamaica, Queens which has a similar demographic makeup to Crown Heights. My quick look has CH (CB 8 ) with a median income of $39,503 and Jamaica (CD 12) with a median income of $48,903. Demographics are about the same with CH having a larger white population (15.5% vs 4.6%) and a smaller asian population (2.1% vs 10.1). The communities also have similar breakdowns within the black community with the majority of non-native born people coming from the same four countries Jamaica, Haiti, Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago.
I do think that there are a lot fewer knuckleheads, especially of the young and dumb set. But the biggest difference is that Grace actually cares how people think about their event so they do everything to make the experience as positive as possible.
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MHA said:
How about, this little group make a list of all of the empirical factors that create 'tipping points' where violence then occurs?Here is my theory: That, for the parameter of time that these festivities occur, it possesses the characteristics of a storm; that, in the same way thunder and lightning are emitted at intervals depending upon the presence of certain ELEMENTS, in this case violence is emitted.Instead of us judging the event NORMATIVELY, let us make attempt to observe it CLINICALLY, and try to come up with theory that will enable the event to occur peaceably.
Here are some elements that I think create the problem:
Decibel level of music
Alcohol consumption
Weather (temperature)
Vendor locations
Crowd volume
SanitationIts kind of paradoxical that much of what makes the event so great is what makes it such a hot pot for disaster. Outside of sanitation any big curbing or sanitizing of any of the elements you listed would really blunt the fun of the festivities.
Only big change I could see would be maybe moving it to Manhattan... but BK is the yardie borough... EP is just a natural venue for a WI parade
[Mamacita said:
I <3 CTK
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Homeowner-
I concede point 1.I also agree with you that key to Grace's event may be its vested interest, whereas the parade and J'Overt effectively lacks a powerful entity that takes ownership and responsibility in the outcomes.
Given the history of this parade and J'Overt, I do not think the present array of organizers (a loose knit group that seems to have a hard time even getting along with each other) can rise to the occasion. Nor, do I think that it is reasonable to expect them to have the expertise, time and resources that is required to pull off such an event. In many ways, they have no chance of succeeding.
We seem to need a hero. However, the last 45 years of this event seem to prove that Superman isn't going come, and that switching the membership of WIDCA isn't going to be enough.
All of this, brings me back to Ishtar's fear:
Ishtar » It's really sad that people cannot make a distinction between the two like Arm Chair did. I almost feel like some people will attribute this to ALL black people and their dealing just because they're socialized to.
As I view this, here we have a series events that have the intention of showing the "culture" of West Indian Americans in a positive light.
In my view, many of the sanctioned events accomplish this. However, the two largest events, J'Overt and the parade, tend to reinforce (or even establish) a negative image of West Indian American "culture" in the minds of people who are prone to letting their emotions trump their intellect.
While I believe that such individuals will be always with us, and that no one is immune from such "lazy" inferences, I also believe that we should avoid giving our "opponents" the equivalent of free ammunition to fight "us".
Do we have any entity that is strong enough to stand up and state, "these events no longer serve "us", and it is therefore time to modify them?"
Do we have any entity that would be willing to endure the almost certain charges of "punishing everyone for the actions of a few" (as we known, such motivations are often the root of racism, classism, etc), and is able to emerge from such accusations strong enough to still enact changes that would benefit the group of people they just successfully defended themselves as being against?
I fear we do not.
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I agree. What would make this possible would be if a deep pocket appeared with money to make the changes happen. If said deep pocket instituted structural changes to the event such as limited amplified sound trucks, return to primarily steel ban and pan focus, creation of a dedicated event staff, public acknowledgement of the event being alcohol free, etc. WITHOUT DISCUSSION OR DEBATE. If deep pocket took ownership of portions of the event that are currently not owned by anyone like hydration, first aid, and sanitation during the event. If deep pocket engaged the police to work out issues around crowd control and demanded that the pokice engage in respectful policing.
At the same time said deep pocket would need to be an entity that was West Indian owned or controlled such that it is seen as a valid placeholder for WICADA, and certain WICADA factions would need to be satisfied with positions of honor to keep the carping down. I can't think of a deep pocket that fits that bill.
But, the reality is this isn't hard. Its a matter of being willing to say some difficult things and make some folks unhappy. Personally, I subscribe to the theory that if everyone is unhappy then you've reached the optimal solution.
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Government often excels at creating laws and regulations that make everyone equally unhappy. However, the politicians seem to walk and waive at the front of the parade, making sure to have an adequate distance between themselves and the parade that follows behind.
To my knowledge, none bother to show up (even to waive) at J'overt.
As a result, J'Overt seems the most vulnerable to being cancelled. If the police and politicians cancelled it, do you think they would get much backlash?
I can not think of another free festival in NYC that has a sanctioned, late night party. Would the absence of similar events in NYC provide a valid defense to charges of discrimination?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
This article is posted for those who believe that the parade is to blame for the violence that will (in all likelihood) occur over the Labor Day weekend, and in the areas near Eastern Parkway:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/nyregion/two-children-among-six-people-shot-in-brooklyn.html?_r=2
My point is that NYC is violent on "regular" summer weekends. Granted, NYC is often MORE VIOLENT on Labor Day than other weekends, but perspective is necessary.
Perspective is also fair to those who organize and participate in the WIADC events.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
So, is it that the parade attracts violence that would otherwise occur somewhere else within the five boroughs? Is there a curious case of a drop in crime in other areas of the city when there is a spike in violence at the parade, and in the tangential neighborhoods?
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I said this last year and I'll say it again. The media lumps violence and associates it with the parade. That violence happened all over the city over the course of 80 or so hours.
For example after last year's shootings I believe it was the Daily News that put together a map call "Labor Day Mayhem" which listed all the shootings that occurred throughout the city over the Labor Day weekend. Significantly, when I looked at it last year, it appeared that out of the 52 shootings that happened over the course of the weekend only 10 of those occurred in the general vicinity of the parade and only 2 of them occured along the route. The other 52 shooting occured throughout the city including places as far away as the Bronx and Staten Island.
What we saw last year was that there were violent incidents in every borough, some happening as much as 60 hours before the parade, but all lumped together in this category of Labor Day (Parade) Mayhem.
The bottom line is the parade may be the site of violent acts, but it doesn't draw all violent activity to it. Dumb people shoot at each other year round all throughout the city. If last year was any indication those dumb people live all over the city and Labor Day happens to be a particularly bad weekend as its the end of summer and folks tend to overdo the partying. I'd suggest if we want to be safe we'd cancel Labor Day.
NYC Labor Day mayhem
There were 52 shootings and 67 victims – 12 of them fatalities – in the wave of gun violence that swept New York City for the long Labor Day weekend, according to the NYPD.Two of the wounded were cops and one of those killed was an innocent bystander – 56-year-old mother Denise Gay. She was shot in the head and died on her front stoop in Crown Heights in front of her daughter.
This is the breakdown of shootings from Friday Sept. 2 to Monday Sept. 5:
Friday: 7 shooting incidents, 9 shooting victims, 5 resulted in deaths
Saturday: 10 shooting incidents, 10 shooting victims, 1 resulted in death
Sunday: 22 shooting incidents, 33 shooting victims, 1 resulted in death
Monday: 13 shooting incidents, 15 shooting victims, 3 resulted in deaths
The below list of locations on our map represent a tally based on information gathered by the New York Daily News.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=202058781407149723466.0004ac45b36c6437bfe79&msa=0&ll=40.913513,-73.883915&spn=0.106504,0.264187
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Yes, absolute safety will always be out of reach. Crime varies enough that we have yet to figure out with precision who is going to shoot/stab/punch who, or when it is going to happen.
...on occasion, someone goes on rampage in Colorado at movie theater.
If we spent our lives only allowing events that were deemed "safe", we might not ever go outside.
As a result, we act on generalities. We do cost benefit analysis with lots of assumptions and unknowns.
Can we start with J'Overt? Could we move it to a venue in which tickets were required, and bags were searched?
...alcohol would be for sale by licensed vendors.
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whynot_31 said:
Can we start with J'Overt?The fact that you do not know how to spell it makes me skeptical of your plan.
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The police have tied three of the shootings and five victims to the West Indian Day Parade, and say the tally could have been higher had officers not seized 14 illegal guns and arrested 16 people during J’Ouvert.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/nyregion/shooting-in-crown-heights-part-of-violent-weekend.html
Update: Whynot_31 learns how J'Ouvert is spelled.
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Tickets and searching bags are both reasonable suggestions. Better one would be to have J'Overt take place at Floyd Bennett Field, where there is plenty of space, a controlled area, and no chance for folks to do things like climb fences or bum rush doors to get in. Add a couple of DWI checkpoints on Flatbush Ave and it would be a perfect deterrent to tomfoolery.
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I think the city should obligate the organizers of such a parade to a higher standard of care.
For instance, take sanitation, yes, the NYC sanitation department dutifully picks up all the garbage generated, but that is after the event is over. before, individuals have to virutally wade through garbage. The organizers should have staff who are continually bagging excess garbage.
Secondly, because of the high volume of people, there should be a parade official at each block with a walkie talkie on hand to alert the police or EMT technicians in the event of a breach of security, or if health concerns arise.
Thirdly, the volume of these passing trucks is absolutely outrageous and unneccessary, and it is my opinion that with the advent these huge speakers on the trucks came a corruption of the musi itself. It would be better -- more authentic -- if live bands provided the accoustics. I know that is never going to happen, but still, it's what I think.
Fourthly, I think if you are a underage minor you should not be allowed to go to this event. This is a hard one to regulate, but, I do believe it can be done.
Fifthly -- the 'Nutbusters' and other alcohol-laced beverages should be strictly prohibited. No exceptions. Police shouldn't turn the other way in full view of it being sold. They should arrest those that do.
The organizers tout in their literature how much money can be made by vendors at this event. They should therefore charge more money for the added cost of providing security, sanitation and even bathroom facilities. It is negligent to have this parade, know that some people are going to litter, commit violent crime, and relieve themselves in the street -- and not attempt to do anything to prevent these actions, or at least take measures to mitigate the effects of them.
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Given the lack of deep pocket sponsors for the parade, I think your requirements would (intentionally or not) effectively cancel it.
I think the St. Patrick's Day parade and the PR parade would also be done for.
The Macy Thanksgiving Parade would thrive: It has a big sponsor and a very orderly, family crowd.
We'd have a bland NYC....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
MHA, I'm with you on everything except #4, and I could get there if you said unacompanied minors.
So here's my solutions for how to do it.
1)As I said before every participating group marching in the parade would have to provide 5-10 bodies to serve as event staff. These people would be broken up as sanitation and general staff. General event staff would be assigned to a particular block and would rove and provide asistance as necessary either to vendors, first aid, or sanitation.
2) A specific outreach would be done to West Indian health organizations for volunteers to staff first aid/comfort stations. There would be one station every 4-5 blocks staff with volunteer nurses/doctors/EMTs to provide support if needed
3) Amplified music is banned from the parade except in front of the reviewing stand. Only bands would be allowed on floats and if they need to amplify themselves it would be at a set volume.
Now all you, me, and Whynot have to do is stage a coup, take over WICADA and run the parade ourselves.
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I'm not joining WIADCA, or taking it over.
If we were smart, we would implement these rules in a way that it did not look like were responding to this particular event.
For example, we could sneak the regulations into a City Council bill that mainly dealt with day care regulations. ...they would go unnoticed.
[We could get Sandcastler to spell check for us.]
The regulations would have a start date of Jan 1, 2013.
The first parade the regulations would effect would be some tiny little parade in Queens that happens in January.
Hell, we could even throw a parade for some obscure holiday in January (Happy Winterfest!), and receive a small fine, just to show the regulations had to be abide by.
Then, all subsequent parades would have to follow the regulations. ...slow but surely, WI Labor day parade would approach.
The parade might not successfully abide in year 1, and would get a big fine.
As a result, it would be "for sale" for the amount of the fine and bought by a big sponsor.
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Don't we have enough laws/ordinances and ones that already cover this (drugs, alcohol, weapons, loud noises, public indecency, etc...)
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Yes.
It also wouldn't take a genius to state:
"your ordinances only apply to the sanctioned event. The parade takes place over a 20 block area, for 3 hours. What happens outside of this area is the responsibility of the police. My organization complied with all of the rules. Next."
If we were to actually enforce the laws on the books re: the present parade, would we end up with a massive, completely unsanctioned events in Prospect Park, and other parks throughout Brooklyn?
Would they be even harder to police?
Would people who want nothing to do with a sterile parade OR intoxicated, armed men find that (due to enforcement of existing laws and new ones) that they now can't even take refuge at the local park on Labor Day?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
The Dominican parade took place this past weekend, and had some arrests and violence associated with it:
A 21-year-old man was slashed on his right arm, police said A 28-year-old man was hit in the head "with a blunt object" in the fights between Keap and Hooper streets shortly after 9 p.m., police said.
The 21-year-old "was screaming and looked mad," Beniquez said. "You could see the blood running down the back of his shirt. People were trying to back him away from the crowd.''
The other casualty might have been hit with a bottle, a police source said.
Both men were taken to Bellevue Hospital in stable condition, police said.
Neither victim has been identified.
Nine people, including four teenagers, were arrested: Tatiana Cabrera, 17, and Jackelyn Garcia, 35, were charged with unlawful assembly; Ernesto Carabello, 21, Michael Hernandez, 26, and Edwin Fermin, 22, were charged with disorderly conduct; Yaritsa Gomez, 28, and Ashley Vinas, 18, were charged with resisting arrest and disorderly conduct; Danny Cabrera, 36, was charged with obstruction of governmental administration, unlawful assembly and disorderly conduct; and an unidentified 15-year-old boy was charged with criminal possession of marijuana.
They were awaiting arraignment Monday at Brooklyn Criminal Court.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
The Daily News has an article about some of the changes being made to the parade this year: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-watchword-year-west-indian-day-carnival-parade-safety-article-1.1134803.
Don't think most of them will decrease the propensity for violence on/adjacent to the parade route. But the new rules/inspections/additional police for the sound trucks are good steps toward increasing safety. And creating access points to cross Eastern Parkway is a huge improvement to the current, frustrating crowd control practices.
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I've bolded my favorite parts. ...basically I bolded the whole article.
Daily News » The party people won’t be chicken about crossing the road at this year’s West Indian American Day parade.
In past years the massive crowds — some three million were in attendance last year — and the New York City Police Department wooden barricades lining Eastern Parkway for the day-long celebration made moving from the north to the south side of the street almost impossible.
But parade organizers said the NYPD has agreed to create access points along the parade route this year that will allow spectators to walk across the street.
“The police will open certain blocks to allow people to cross the street during the parade,” said William Howard, first vice president of the West Indian American Day Carnival Association.
Noting that people from different Caribbean nations tend to congregate in separate areas along the route, Howard said the change will let “people from Port of Spain Trinidad) visit with folks from Port-au-Prince (Haiti) during the parade.”
The move is among several new measures intended to increase security and improve safety at the parade, scheduled to step off at 10 a.m. Monday, Sept. 3.
Police have also pledged to make it easier for costumed revelers to leave Eastern Parkway to use bathrooms and buy food and rejoin the parade, a problem in past years, Howard said.
More volunteers will be on hand around the Brooklyn Museum and near Grand Army Plaza, where the parade officially ends, to keep marchers from walking back up Eastern Parkway, further clogging the streets, once the group they’ve marched with has completed its run.
Sound trucks - flatbed trailers with massive speakers that supply the music the followers dance to — have also been modified. The highest speaker on the truck can be no more than 13 feet off the ground, said WIADCA Board member Joan Pierre.
The wheels on each of the 18-wheelers — 40 bands are scheduled, and each should have a truck — will be covered to protect people walking next to them. The NYPD Highway Patrol will inspect each truck the weekend before the parade and issue certificates which each driver must carry to be allowed to drive in the parade, Howard said.
A Highway Patrol officer will ride in the cab of each parade truck for the length of the parade, with two NYPD officers walking on foot in front of the truck the entire route.
“That policeman riding in the truck has control of the truck,” Howard said. “Let’s say there is an incident further up the road. If something is not right, they can cut off the music. They can take charge very quickly.”
Once at Grand Army Plaza marchers can no longer follow the trucks, which will turn down Flatbush Ave. and return to camps scattered across the Flatbush community, WIADCA Treasure Angela Sealy said. Trucks will have to turn off the music once they reach Grand Army Plaza. The Highway Patrol officer inside the cab will stay there until the truck reaches its home base.
“The people can meet the truck there, they just can’t walk behind it all the way there,” Sealy said.
WIADCA will have a “flying squad” of volunteers to respond to any incident, like the one last year in which City Councilman Jumaane Williams and Kirsten Foy, a community affairs officer in Public Advocate Bill de Blasio’s office, were detained by police, Howard said.*
New York Fire Department officials will be inspecting all propane grills used by vendors selling food to make sure they are safe.
Police will also be cracking down on vendors selling an assortment of goods on East Parkway without a WIADCA permit, (does this include Nutcrackers?) particularly vendors in the blocks east of Utica and Rochester avenues, Howard said. Schnectedy Ave is the official parade starting point and vendors east of there will face increased scrutiny.
Vendors without permits could be ticketed and have their goods confiscated, Howard said. He urged vendors interested in selling on Eastern Parkway to call the WIADCA offices at 718-467-1797.
A 2004 study by the New York State Economic Development Corp. found that the 2003 West Indian parade throng — only a third the size of the crowd expected this year — generated $154.8 million for the city.
For more information on the parade see the website, http://www.WIADCACARNIVAL.com.
For everyone's sake, I hope these changes help.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
This article in today's Daily News explains that the parade and Jouvert are two different events, run by two different organizations.
They are the one-two punch of the city's Carnival celebration - the J'Ouvert pre-dawn march through Flatbush, followed by the day-long West Indian American Day Parade on Eastern Parkway.
But the same people do not run them both.
“We have nothing to do with J'Ouvert,” said Angela Sealy, treasure of the West Indian American Day Carnival Association, organizers of the West Indian American Day Parade, which is expected to draw some three million revelers to Eastern Parkway on Sept. 3. “We know who the people are who run it, and they know us. But we don’t have anything to do with J’Ouvert.”
Pronounced “Joo Vay,” from the French “jour ouvert,” or “day open,” J'Ouvert kicks off around 2 a.m. Monday morning at Grand Army Plaza. Participants follow steel pan bands south on Flatbush Ave. to Empire Boulevard, east on Empire to Nostrand, then right on Nostrand to Linden Boulevard.
The celebration is big on dancing and clouds of baby powder, which celebrants throw in the air and on each other along the route. Smaller than the massive parade which kicks off some four hours after J’Ouvert’s 6 a.m. conclusion, many J’Ouvert participants grab a quick nap before heading to Eastern Parkway for carnival.
The two celebrations make for a full day of partying and are so identified with each other that many people assume the WIADCA board also sponsors J’Ouvert.
“People have even tried to sue us for something that happened at J’Ouvert,” Sealy said. “When the lawyers call we have to tell them they have the wrong people.”
Blogger Jeffrey Contray details the ins and outs of the 2008 J'Ouvert celebration at his website, http://contraysdictions.blogspot.com.
“Do not: Show up at 2 a.m.,” Contray wrote. “It’ll probably be a ghost town. There’s a big Dimanche Gras (carnival band competition) party that goes until 2 a.m., and then people take their time getting situated. It’s a West Indian party, and everybody is on Caribbean time. Get there at 4:30 a.m. and you’ll be fine.”
Meanwhile, here's some more details on the parade:
WIADCA officials last week announced that singer, actor and human rights pioneer Harry Belafonte, City Council Speaker Christine Quinn and Trinidad/Tobago soca singer Machel Montano will serve as co-grand marshals of this year's parade. The three will join Mayor Bloomberg at the head of the throng when festivities kick off at 10 a.m.
Jamaica native Belafonte, 85, took part in many of the Civil Rights demonstrations in the 1960’s and remains active today.
William Howard, first vice president with parade organizers the West Indian American Day Carnival Association, said Belafonte’s appearance will also commemorate the 50th anniversary of Jamaican independence.
Montano will also headline WIADCA’s “Officials Brass Fest” concert on Friday at the Brooklyn Museum with Patrice Roberts, Farmer Nappy, Edwin Yearwood & Krosfayh, Lyrical and Young Devyn. For more information on the show see the website, http://www.wiadcacarnival.com.
Organizers also announced that Brooklyn Borough President Marty Markowitz will kick off the city’s carnival season with an August 24 invitation only reception for 800 guests at Brooklyn Borough Hall.
The event replaces the Mayor’s reception at Gracie Mansion, which organizers were forced to cancel this year because of budget restraints.
Although a 2004 study found the carnival — which has tripled in size since then — pumped $154.8 million into the city’s economy, WIADCA this year had difficulty reaching its $1.3 million budget.
Howard said this year’s sponsors include the Daily News, National Grid, the Municipal Credit Union, Preferred Health Partners, Health First, and Bacardi Rum.
I also find it interesting that the parade organizers only have $1.3 M in sponsor income to work with. Does this mean that all of the events behind the museum are largely supported by ticket revenue?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Yep, that's exactly what that means.
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Spiderman says "with great power comes great responsibility."
The more that I look into this parade, the more I discover that that organizers have not much power.
They may be doing all they can to manage it.
...once again, I am concluding that we can only place the blame on individuals who decide it is a good idea to bring a knife or gun to a parade.
Are folks planning to attend this year?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
After last year's shooting on my block, Park Place, my wife and I are heading out of town for the weekend. You know, I used to like the parade. But in 10 years of living here, the parade has only gotten bigger, its attendees more chaotic and more unpredictable.
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While I don't blame the organizers for the chaos that often the accompanies the weekend
....and I like what the new president is saying
...and certainly commend him for trying to get his side of the story out in the Daily News
I think there is too much work to be done before the "norms" and reputation of Labor Day weekend in Crown Heights changes.
Here, the new president apologizes for the last 5 years, but it isn't clear what he feels what the organization did wrong.
Did the previous leadership not work closely with the police?
Did they resist greater police presence on the trucks?....in my mind, the organization certainly failed to effectively distance themselves from what I believe to be the weekend's most predictably violent event: J'ouvert.
I only realized that the organization had nothing to do with it until today.
President’s Message
Dear Fans, Supporters, Sponsors and Friends:
When I took office on April 12, 2012 I dedicated myself to re-organizing and re-building our organization in order to face the many challenges that my Administration inherited, and to work effectively in a dynamic 21st century environment. I decided to take this office based on the firm understanding that I would lead a New WIADCA Team and in the process seek to accomplish the hitherto illusive goals of transparency, inclusiveness and a proactive, unselfish approach to development.
I have to report that we are making strides in all of these areas but these things will not happen overnight. Still, WIADCA is alive and well. We are committed to promoting, preserving and enhancing the culture of the Caribbean in New York. Accordingly, we have sought out individuals with expertise not found in the organization, engaged the producers of carnival in a constant dialogue, and set in place a more informed and democratic methodology to run the day-to-day activities of the organization.
But I will be the first to acknowledge that correcting the mistakes of the immediate past will not be easy or overcome with these first steps. Nor will rebuilding confidence and support for the organization that was badly damaged, especially over the past 5 years. I want to apologize for these short-comings. I will move to put things right. However, we will not dwell in the past. Rather, we will learn from it and, hopefully, will not repeat the mistakes that were made.
We look to the future with quiet confidence. The 2012 Carnival Festival is on. And you can rest assured that we are going to put on a world-class show worthy of our 45th years of doing this thing. But I know that we at the New WIADCA Team can’t do it alone. We need your help and support to rebuild, grow and develop. I urge you to extend a helping hand as we work together to preserve our culture right here in New York.
To everyone that has been a part of our history and growth we say thank you. To those who stuck with us through good and not so good times – your friendship is our foundation. To those of you who are willing to give this new team a chance, we say many thanks. You have our deepest gratitude. And to those of you who feel compelled, for whatever reasons, to hold your patronage for now, we understand your concerns and hope that in the future we can earn your support and respect.
Sincerely
Thomas Bailey
President
http://wiadcacarnival.org/index.php/about-wiadca/welcome-message-from-the-president
P.S. This photo of the group's sole office (located on Rogers Ave, near Empire) may give readers a little bit of perspective of how large and powerful the organization is (or, um, isn't):
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I think we're going to take a non-paid house-sitting job in upper Manhattan that weekend. The residents of the apartment may still cancel plans and be there too which would be lovely.
The levels of general violence (caused or not by the parade itself) is worrisome of course, but I'm actually worried about never being able to sleep with the noise levels.
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WIADCA have been holding ongoing high-level meetings with NYPD (Brooklyn North & South Commands) and have been assured that every security precaution will be taken to protect masqueraders, spectators, and other participants throughout the Festival and Parade. Assistant Chief Thomas Chan has made it clear that the protection of the general public is safe and ensure that the safety of the festival is his top priority.
I wonder whether the police will be told to be more assertive, under the belief that the present leadership of WIADCA will support their efforts, and wants to improve the parades image.
If the police are involved in a confrontation, will the WIADCA show the restraint necessary to get the whole story? Is this small org strong enough to work with the police, and not simply agree to all of the requests of the police?
The Daily News is a sponsor of the org. Does the org have other relationships with media to help them manage the brand and image of this event?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
whynot, i know you're being cheeky, but just because someone has limited power, we don't excuse them from any responsibility. these folks have the power to put on the parade, and they have the power not to put it on. making that choice imbues them with some kind of responsibility. it also does not make logical sense to claim both that the violence has nothing to do with the parade and that if the parade was canceled, then suddenly all of the otherwise "safe" spaces would be overrun with violence.
where in all this are the entities that ordinarily must approve permits for street closures? for the rest of us who'd ask to shut down even one block, we have to submit applications and get approvals from the community board, the precinct, etc. if we have a huge party in a public space with open containers, we are usually subject to law enforcement. so just because an event has a history doesn't seem to exempt it, in any kind of formal way, from whatever democratic processes otherwise govern, does it? that is to say, if i wanted to put an item on the CB8 and CB9 and associated precinct council meeting agendas, and there were block associations and whatnot that wrote letters to City Council people, it's not like there is some mysterious force that would prevent us from expressing those views simply because it's this particular parade and its corollary events (sanctioned or otherwise). Whether such actions would actually result in anything positive is an open question, of course, but if you actually have concerns it seems strange not to take even these simple, pretty well-established avenues to expressing your views to people who do have actual governmental power given to them through democratic processes.
let me say that i understand very well the political and cultural dynamics at play, but you can be certain that politicians would be much more likely to support measures aimed at increasing safety in this situation if they have constituents asking for them. especially if those constituents are reasonable people with roots in the community (and not, let's say, flaming racists/hard-ass law & order police brutality apologists).
as an example, did you see that some in the media are crediting last year's events with mr. foy for the increased scrutiny of stop-and-frisk? if the high-profile nature of the parade can bring a more measured and informed public dialogue on that issue, why are we so sure that it could not also do so with regard to, let's say, crazy excuses for wilding out and non-enforcement thereof?
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A few years ago, I saw a group of teenage males "wild" at the parade.
It involved them shoving random people, groping female people, and stealing soda from vendors before running down a side street. I find it hard to believe that there wasn't at least one cop also seeing what I was seeing, and suspect that they were powerless due to the context and inherent risks. (I.E. ...even "pre Mr. Joy and Mr Williams", few cops were willing to risk media scrutiny and the potential of the crowd siding against them)
I think that aspect of the parade is what concerns me most: While some years it is more violent than others, I always get the feeling that on Labor Day Weekend the entire neighborhood (not just the parade route during the parade, not just the J'Ouvert event) is ripe for a much larger conflict.
...one caused by a subset of parade goers who believe they can (and therefore should) do whatever they want.
...one caused by a police force that doesn't want to enforce laws that result in huge risks to their personal safety and career as result of being "subjective".
...one caused by a public that just wants both the police and aforementioned subset to chill out so "we" can enjoy seeing sparkly women and feasting on jerk chicken in peace.
The changes proposed by this years WIADCA leadership may help with the actual parade, but one will not be able to measure the success based on one year.
If gentrification continues to spread east, CB8 and CB9 will become less focused on the revenue the events bring to the area and more concerned with the "quality of life impacts" the sanctioned and unsanctioned events cause to the surrounding area.
I hope the parade survives.
While I realize that any attempt to cancel J'ouvert (a celebration associated with freedom from slavery...) would subject one to lots of accusations, it nonetheless amazes me that it continues to exist in its present form under the existing laws and regulations....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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