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"Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford
Lewis Mumford
Brooklynian » Forum » Park Slope »
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It's not easy being a pedestrian! http://beinbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2009/07/crossing-grand-army-plaza.html
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There are some places pedestrians don't belong. If I'm walking I wouldn't even consider that route. People need to lose their sense on entitlement and find another route. Exercise some common sense and find another way. You wouldn't try and cross the BQE would you?
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Grand Army Plaza wasn't built to be an expressway. The BQE doesn't have a fountain and park in the center of it."Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
I always have a feeling of dread when I'm driving through GAP. I usually go from Eastern Pkwy to PPW, and that route is extremely dangerous. Going by Flatbush, I always have to wait for the traffic to clear from Flatbush before I can cross multiple lanes. Always results in cars behind me honking and pressuring me to make a stupid move. As bad as it is for cars, I can see that it's many times worse for pedestrians. This video is informative, but at almost 10 minutes in length, could be better in terms of offering solutions to the problems.
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Going from EP to PPW- I found that when one is merging and crossing all those lanes, the best way to do it, and it goes against what we've always been taught, is to actually drive forward while looking out the back window. So long as there's no one directly in front of you, then its all good to assume that everyone that's passed you is not in danger of being hit from behind by you. That said, I usually wait for the light on Flatbush to be red- there's just no reason to try to merge while all those cars are coming at you. Just wait it out- a little patience goes far."...you can choose the rain....but I choose the sun..." - N. Costa
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It helps to have a fast car so that once you make the "go" decision, you can execute it quickly.
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BrooklynGigCenter » It helps to have a fast car so that once you make the "go" decision, you can execute it quickly.
No doubt!
"...you can choose the rain....but I choose the sun..." - N. Costa -
Unrepentant Fenian » There are some places pedestrians don't belong. If I'm walking I wouldn't even consider that route. People need to lose their sense on entitlement and find another route. Exercise some common sense and find another way. You wouldn't try and cross the BQE would you?
DRIVERS need to lose their sense of entitlement. The presence of too many cars has made the city dangerous and unlivable. The BQE, like most highways, is set apart by design from the pedestrian landscape. GAP, (as the video points out) was designed before the advent of cars as a grand pedestrian entrance to the park. At some point in GAP's history, car-happy city planners chose to turn the beautiful plaza into a hideous multi-lane traffic circle, and we live with the result of that unfortunate decision. -
...and I wouldn't mind terribly if they turned the BQE into a park, or parkway."Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
newcolonist » ...and I wouldn't mind terribly if they turned the BQE into a park, or parkway.
The Brooklyn High Line!! -
We're very fortunate that newcolonist and BrooklynGigCenter are not city planners. Imagine what turning the BQE into a park would do to street traffic. There are plenty of ways to access the park on foot without entering the GAP. Walk a couple of blocks, it's good for you. Your self righteous "they shouldn't have turned this into a major thoroughfare" isn't going to provide a hell of alot of solace when you're laying in a hospital bed. Personally I think anyone dumb enough to wander into that traffic on foot is too stupid to live, and the gene pool is better off without them. Drivers in the US are notoriously bad at negotiating traffic circles, drivers in NYC are not known for their patience, and pedestrians routinely disregard the signals. This makes for a hat trick of danger.
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Actually city planners have learned that removing freeways does not increase traffic http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/07/06/huh-4-cases-of-how-tearing-down-a-highway-can-relieve-traffic-jams-and-help-save-a-city/ ...and as we see from the post and video, the circle isn't much cherished by drivers either."Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Nobody appears to be denying that the circle is nightmare. I'm just saying in its current state it is not safe for pedestrians by any stretch.
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So we agree. We may differ on whether it should be safe for pedestrians. You seem to be saying "no.""Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Unrepentant Fenian » We're very fortunate that newcolonist and BrooklynGigCenter are not city planners. Imagine what turning the BQE into a park would do to street traffic.
It's unfortunate that you regarded my statement as a serious endorsement of turning the BQE into a park. It serves a much better function as a parking lot.
And if I were a city planner I'd be great at it. -
Unrepentant Fenian » Personally I think anyone dumb enough to wander into that traffic on foot is too stupid to live, and the gene pool is better off without them.
Just to clarify, you're suggesting that we should tolerate dangerous traffic circles in the midst of our residential neighborhoods for the purpose of weeding out the dopier segment of the population? Wouldn't a nice death camp get the job done a little quicker? -
A lot of work need to be done to make Grand Army Plaza a better place. A lot has also been done in the past few years. There are now crosswalks and walk signals were there were none a few years ago. I live a few blocks from Grand Army Plaza and make a point to visit the arch and fountain often. I also enjoy the new crosswalks. But the subject of the video did not use them. We are not gonna get more if we do not use what we have.Don't get me started
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Danny Hellman » [quote="Unrepentant Fenian"] Personally I think anyone dumb enough to wander into that traffic on foot is too stupid to live, and the gene pool is better off without them.
Just to clarify, you're suggesting that we should tolerate dangerous traffic circles in the midst of our residential neighborhoods for the purpose of weeding out the dopier segment of the population? Wouldn't a nice death camp get the job done a little quicker?[/quote] No, I think the two are mutually exclusive. If you can find a way to make the area safer that's fantastic. However, if someone runs into it in its current state they are asking for a traumatic injury and shouldn't complain when they receive it. IF you improve the traffic conditions at that location I imagine that same person will at some point jam a fork into a toaster. -
Unrepentant Fenian » No, I think the two are mutually exclusive. If you can find a way to make the area safer that's fantastic. However, if someone runs into it in its current state they are asking for a traumatic injury and shouldn't complain when they receive it. IF you improve the traffic conditions at that location I imagine that same person will at some point jam a fork into a toaster.
You talk about the traffic circle as if it was some feature of the natural landscape, like a ravine, a volcano or a tar pit, impassively waiting to swallow up dimwits. But the traffic circle is made up of human beings driving cars, many of whom are drug-addled, insane goons in behemoth Escalades, who rocket through our streets as if they were playing Grand Theft Auto on their XBox. If the traffic circle at GAP is a swirling vortex of death awaiting hapless pedestrians, it's because we choose to let it remain. Cars pollute, they kill over 40,000 Americans every year, and the gas they consume bankrolls terrorism. Cars are a fucking blight. They need to be made slower, safer, and much fewer in number. -
Cars need to be kept on reservations in Long Island."Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Naah... send 'em (as opposed to EM) all out to the Trail of Tears!
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And there it is, "I can't afford a car or don't happen to need one so nobody should have one". Fucking extremist idiots. Don't want me to run you down? Stay on the fucking sidewalk till the light changes. You would do well to listen to your buddy ringrunner.
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Unrepentant Fenian » And there it is, "I can't afford a car or don't happen to need one so nobody should have one". Fucking extremist idiots. Don't want me to run you down? Stay on the fucking sidewalk till the light changes. You would do well to listen to your buddy ringrunner.
No one who lives in the city "needs" a car. At some point in the last century, powerful interests conspired to encourage widespread car ownership, while strangling public transportation. While a lot of money has been made, this policy has been a disaster for the environment, and for the quality of life in cities. You feel entitled to own a car because corporate America has been relentlessly peddling car culture for nearly a century. Meanwhile, ask a senior to tell you how much more pleasant and livable our streets were fifty or sixty years ago, before car ownership had reached its current level of saturation. It might be extremely convenient for me to keep a helicopter on my roof so that I can fly back and forth to the Fairway whenever I want cheese. However, if everyone decides that it's their right to fly around in helicopters whenever they like, and our shitty government sanctions it because there's corporate profit to be made, the result will be nightmarish. Our skies will be black with exhaust, and our landscape will be littered with the jagged, bloody remains of innumerable collisions. Oh wait, they already are. -
Danny Hellman » [quote="Unrepentant Fenian"]And there it is, "I can't afford a car or don't happen to need one so nobody should have one". Fucking extremist idiots. Don't want me to run you down? Stay on the fucking sidewalk till the light changes. You would do well to listen to your buddy ringrunner.
No one who lives in the city "needs" a car. [/quote] Not so much, I wish I did not need a car, but lets talk real world. I live in the slope (near Grand Army Plaza) and my wife works in Bay Ridge. She starts work at 6 am. Her drive to work takes about 12 minutes. The subway takes over an hour at that time of day. Please don't tell me I don't need a car, because believe me, if I did not need it I would not have one.Don't get me started -
ringrunner » Not so much, I wish I did not need a car, but lets talk real world. I live in the slope (near Grand Army Plaza) and my wife works in Bay Ridge. She starts work at 6 am. Her drive to work takes about 12 minutes. The subway takes over an hour at that time of day. Please don't tell me I don't need a car, because believe me, if I did not need it I would not have one.
You don't need a car. What you're saying is that you enjoy the convenience of owning a car. I don't know what goes on at the ungodly hour of 6 AM, but when I hop on the R train during the day, it generally gets me to Bay Ridge in about twenty minutes, (granted, I'm closer to the R train than you are). At 6 AM, I'd be surprised if the bus that runs along Fifth Ave couldn't get her out there in under an hour. Meanwhile, if we had safe, dedicated bike lanes, your wife could bicycle to Bay Ridge in a half an hour. If you told me she had to commute back and forth to Massapequa, I might agree with you. -
Well, this is why we need more subways and streetcar lines and less buses. Buses can be quite slow. See "An Unwitting Accomplice http://www.newcolonist.com/em8.html"Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Danny Hellman » [quote="ringrunner"] Not so much, I wish I did not need a car, but lets talk real world. I live in the slope (near Grand Army Plaza) and my wife works in Bay Ridge. She starts work at 6 am. Her drive to work takes about 12 minutes. The subway takes over an hour at that time of day. Please don't tell me I don't need a car, because believe me, if I did not need it I would not have one.
You don't need a car. What you're saying is that you enjoy the convenience of owning a car. I don't know what goes on at the ungodly hour of 6 AM, but when I hop on the R train during the day, it generally gets me to Bay Ridge in about twenty minutes, (granted, I'm closer to the R train than you are). At 6 AM, I'd be surprised if the bus that runs along Fifth Ave couldn't get her out there in under an hour. Meanwhile, if we had safe, dedicated bike lanes, your wife could bicycle to Bay Ridge in a half an hour. If you told me she had to commute back and forth to Massapequa, I might agree with you.[/quote] I really wish there was better mass transit. I have made donations to Transportation Alternatives against my wife wishes. But Biking to Bay Ridge at 6am is not an option for my wife. Nor is walking to 4th or 5th Ave in the dark at 5am. I wish it were an option but it is not. Taking the 2/3 to Atlantic for the R was the best of the bad chooses when the car was in the shop. Having a car is a hassle and I really don think it should be less of a hassle. I am not complaining. But there are people living in Park Slope that do need one.Don't get me started -
If we had TGV trains like those in France, I might be tempted to agree with you. But we do not, and neither conventional trains nor buses are substitutes for cars for travel between cities two hundred or more miles apart... especially when traveling with kids. Nor is there any substitute for a car when one has several errands to do in different parts of different boroughs in the city. Is it selfish? Yes, of course. But we do what we have to do (within legal bounds) to survive in the big city. Without a car, I could not live here. I'd be totally miserable.
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booklaw » If we had TGV trains like those in France, I might be tempted to agree with you. But we do not, and neither conventional trains nor buses are substitutes for cars for travel between cities two hundred or more miles apart... especially when traveling with kids. Nor is there any substitute for a car when one has several errands to do in different parts of different boroughs in the city. Is it selfish? Yes, of course. But we do what we have to do (within legal bounds) to survive in the big city. Without a car, I could not live here. I'd be totally miserable.
I dont really even think its selfish. Some of us (gasp!) work OUTSIDE of the city periodically. I have clients in southern jersey (away from commuter bus stations) and in eastern new england. I've also cared for family who I have lived in eastern new england (specifically over 1.5 hours from the closest metronorth station.) I almost never drive in the city or brooklyn unless i am en route to one of these locations. It is not practical for me to rely on public transportation. If i were to fly to my clients it would involve getting a cab to and from the airport and then renting a car when I get to the destination anyway. We can argue specifics about if a plane or a car produces more pollution during that 210 mile trip (and I would welcome the challenge since I actually would be overshooting most of my trips to then rent a car and drive backwards to the actual location...) regardless, not everyone who owns a car is a daily commuter to the city. And, for the record, I also ride a bike and my primary mode of transportation is by foot since I rarely go into the city. To imply that all people in the 5 boroughs should rely solely on public transportation, bikes or cabs is ridiculous and seems sort of jealous.whoa hey whoa hey whoa -
Carmen » To imply that all people in the 5 boroughs should rely solely on public transportation, bikes or cabs is ridiculous and seems sort of jealous.
Obviously there are parts of the five boroughs that aren't well-served by the MTA, and where driving is the only option. Staten Island, and the outer reaches of Brooklyn, Queens and The Bronx would qualify. However, if you live within walking distance of a subway or bus route, owning a car is a choice of convenience, not necessity. No doubt we'd all be better off if we had more interstate rail options. Hopefully we'll get that when gasoline becomes prohibitively expensive, (and that day is coming soon). What's wrong with renting a car for occasional business trips? It's got to be cheaper than owning a car. All three airports are accessible by public transportation. Owing to the traffic jams that tend to surround the airports, I find that public transportation is the most reliable way to get there on time. I'm not sure why I'm coming across to you as jealous. I don't want a car, I HATE cars. I get around on a bicycle, and to me, cars are a menace to public safety. If I were arguing against cigarette smoking, would you suggest that I secretly want to smoke? Check out these depressing stats I just pulled off of Gothamist: * A driver could speed every day in NYC and get ticketed only once every 35 years. * Despite the extensive system of 100 red light cameras in New York City, police and cameras catch only 1 out of every 438 red light runners. * While the number of traffic fatalities caused by speeding rose 11 percent between 2001 and 2006, the number of summons issued for speeding dropped 22 percent during that period. * A driver could fail to yield (the number two cause of crashes in NYC) every single day and get ticketed only once every 1,589 years. * While the number of traffic fatalities caused by drivers failing to yield rose 26 percent between 2005 and 2007, the number of summons issued for failing to yield decreased 12 percent during that period. * Being struck by a car while walking remains the number two cause of injury-related death for New York City adults over 45, second only to an accidental fall, and it's the number one injury-related cause of death for New York City children under 14. -
And then there's this awful story: http://gothamist.com/2009/07/14/driver_in_insane_bronx_rampage_set.php
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Great stuff. I sent soem of them via newcolonist on Twitter. I've lived in San Francisco, New York and even a suburb of Pittsburgh without a car (and I don't use a bike for transportation). I also think many people HAVE the option to MOVE to where they don't need a car. Some don't, I understand. There's a podcast on living in LA without a car, and one on living in Pittsburgh without a car here: http://www.newcolonist.com/podcasts.html ...and don't forget the availability of zipcars!"Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
A huge portion of traffic in this city is commercial traffic. Every item you purchase, be it a quarter drink at the bodega, or your organic eggs at Whole Foods, is delivered by a truck. When your dishwasher breaks do you think the Maytag repairman is going to peddle over to your place on his bicycle with all of is tools on his back? Another enormous chunk are cabs and livery vehicles which are often utilized by these whiny "nobody should have a car" types. Not everyone has the lifestyle you do. Some people have extended families who live in the suburbs that they visit frequently. Some people like to go camping, or climbing, or have weekend homes - are they supposed to rent a car 3 out of 7 days? That's economically retarded. Some people have to carry tools, merchandise, or other equipment for their job. Some people work off hours and asking them to spend 3 hours commuting each way is ridiculous. My wife and I both live in Brooklyn but work in Jersey. The reverse commute is awesome. Fortunately my wife can take public transportation - it takes an hour and a half but for her it's doable. To ringrunner you shouldn't be giving money to transportation alternatives - there an extremist organization that wants to eradicate vehicles in NYC altogether, that and they get enough tax money from the DOT.
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http://www.greyhound.com/home/"Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Page not found. That was some time ago in Canada. An average of 114 people die each day in car crashes in the U.S."Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Your view is myopic.
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Unrepentant Fenian » A huge portion of traffic in this city is commercial traffic. Every item you purchase, be it a quarter drink at the bodega, or your organic eggs at Whole Foods, is delivered by a truck.
Wait a minute.....you can get a quarter drink at a bodega in this town? -
Danny Hellman » What's wrong with renting a car for occasional business trips? It's got to be cheaper than owning a car. All three airports are accessible by public transportation. Owing to the traffic jams that tend to surround the airports, I find that public transportation is the most reliable way to get there on time. .[/b]
So I should spend 1-1.5 hours commuting to and from the airport, then at least 3 hours in transit (checking in+flying) and then rent a car when I reach my destination to drive the 45 minutes to the actual client location to replace a 3 hour drive? Or maybe rent a car for 5 days and drive to/from the client location, costing at least $450 for just one trip...lets say I do this once a month for 6 months, that totals $2700. My car insurance is $610 for 6 months plus about $40 in gas each time, which totals under $900. Cars may be this big, bad, evil phenomenon but, oddly enough, people do use them for things other than joyriding around grand army circle or mowing down pedestrians for sport.whoa hey whoa hey whoa -
Carmen » Cars may be this big, bad, evil phenomenon but, oddly enough, people do use them for things other than joyriding around grand army circle or mowing down pedestrians for sport.
My mother once did 15 laps of Grand Army Plaza because she could not cross the like 10 lanes of traffic necessary to get from Flatbush Ave to PPW.Don't get me started -
ringrunner » [quote="Carmen"] Cars may be this big, bad, evil phenomenon but, oddly enough, people do use them for things other than joyriding around grand army circle or mowing down pedestrians for sport.
My mother once did 15 laps of Grand Army Plaza because she could not cross the like 10 lanes of traffic necessary to get from Flatbush Ave to PPW.[/quote] I still wouldn't consider that "joyriding." there is nothing joyful about grand army plaza, or driving in NYC in general for that matter.whoa hey whoa hey whoa -
Zipcar does not require going to the airport."Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Unrepentant Fenian » A huge portion of traffic in this city is commercial traffic. Every item you purchase, be it a quarter drink at the bodega, or your organic eggs at Whole Foods, is delivered by a truck. When your dishwasher breaks do you think the Maytag repairman is going to peddle over to your place on his bicycle with all of is tools on his back? Another enormous chunk are cabs and livery vehicles which are often utilized by these whiny "nobody should have a car" types. Not everyone has the lifestyle you do. Some people have extended families who live in the suburbs that they visit frequently. Some people like to go camping, or climbing, or have weekend homes - are they supposed to rent a car 3 out of 7 days? That's economically retarded. Some people have to carry tools, merchandise, or other equipment for their job. Some people work off hours and asking them to spend 3 hours commuting each way is ridiculous.
I didn't say that cars should be done away with entirely. I said that cars should be made safer, slower, and fewer in number.Unrepentant Fenian » you shouldn't be giving money to transportation alternatives - there an extremist organization that wants to eradicate vehicles in NYC altogether, that and they get enough tax money from the DOT.
Oooh, where's my credit card?Unrepentant Fenian » http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7537675.stm
Yeah, I remember that story, because I had to ride a Greyhound back and forth to Montreal a few weeks after that. Somehow I managed not to get beheaded. -
Carmen » I still wouldn't consider that "joyriding." there is nothing joyful about grand army plaza, or driving in NYC in general for that matter.
Well, when there's not traffic there is a lot of joy. I locve driving on the Belt by the harbor, I like the Jackie Robinson, especially those crazy S curves, I like driving on the Henry Hudson too, just to name a few. But the best is playing "almost hit the pedestrian" in GAP, no doubt about it.Walking on the beaches looking at the peaches. -
While I can't afford a car, I managed to scrape together fifty bucks for Transportation Alternatives: https://www.transalt.org/support/join Meanwhile, here's a sad story: http://gothamist.com/2009/07/15/cop_pinned_by_car_crash_loses_part.php
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I think this whole anti-car crusade is pretty cute. I'm gonna go out for a drive to get me some popcorn. Keep it comin'!
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Nice video showing life without cars http://www.newcolonist.com/vox/archive/00001083.html"Restore human legs as a means of travel. Pedestrians rely on food for fuel and need no special parking facilities."
Lewis Mumford -
Curitiba, Brazil: Density 10,748.5 people/sq mile Brooklyn, NY: Density 34,916.6 people /sq mileWalking on the beaches looking at the peaches.
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Newcolonist- I'm just curious- ever since you moved here, it seems like your only mission is to make this city (albeit EVERY city you've even lived in, it seems) car-free. What's the deal? Ever thought about living somewhere where NO cars are allowed? I think you'd be happier...Fire Island, for example..."...you can choose the rain....but I choose the sun..." - N. Costa
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