moving (last month's rent, security deposit, notification, etc.)

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moving (last month's rent, security deposit, notification, etc.)

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Apartment Blues
getting it
Joined: Oct '09
Posts: 83

Hi,

I have posted something similar to Tenant.net, but I find that sometimes the suggestions or thoughts here are more helpful.

I am moving out of state. I am considering not paying the last month’s rent and telling the landlord to keep the security deposit instead. My reasoning is that I will NEVER see the deposit and even if I were staying in state, I would need to take him to court to get it. The apartment is in good condition (better than when I moved in), my landlord is just really difficult to deal with and past tenant’s have told me that he has not given back their deposits. I can my imagine landlord blaming me for the same leaky ceiling that he has fixed 15-20 times over the past 12 years and not giving back my deposit.

Considering that my landlord has my security deposit which is a full month’s rent, can I expect any serious legal issues from not paying my last month’s rent? Of course I am concerned about my credit rating.

Lastly, my landlord wants me out, and I want me out, so he let me add a sentence to current lease saying that I can break the lease without penalty. We both signed.

Lastly, do most people send a certified letter to the landlord 30 days before moving saying you are moving?

Thanks in advance,

# Posted 1 yr ago
eacsn1
rookie newb
Joined: Feb '10
Posts: 18

I sent my landlord an email 30 days before I moved out and just asked him to confirm. I also indicated that I would not be paying my last month and they could use the deposit as such and they were fine with that as well. I just kept them in the loop and had always paid my rent on time and didn't bother them for small things so they were more than happy to work with me. They even asked me to take pictures of my apartment before I moved out so they could use it to advertise.

# Posted 1 yr ago
BrooklynGigCenter
above average
Joined: Feb '08
Posts: 395

Everyone does this, it's part of the game. The legal fees involved in going after you make it not worth his time. Just do the ethical thing and leave the apartment in good shape and walk away.

# Posted 1 yr ago
OpossumQueen
rocking it
Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 2,525

Make sure to give enough notice. Unless you know for sure he wants you out ASAP. I'm not sure on the legality of this, but the ways it's worked for us in the past was that 30 days notice doesn't mean 30 days from when you want to move. I'm not great at explaining this but I'll try.

If the end of your paying month is the last day of the month, it would be at least 30 days before then even if you planned on moving mid-month. Though every LL is different and if yours wants you out, it may not matter.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Mamacita
Stuck in the middle with you
Joined: Dec '06
Posts: 9,499

^^ yup. 30 days from the time your rent or lease date was signed/negotiated. If you moved in mid-month, you need to give at least 30 days before that timeline.

Also, if you are breaking a lease to move out and don't have the ok by the landlord then you incur penalties and they can take your deposit and still have you pay till the end of your lease agreement unless you negotiate with them on what they require for you to get out of the lease.

(\__/)
(=’.'=)
(”)_(”)

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Don't do it.

As a landlord, I would absolutely sue you if you didn't pay your last month's rent without a previous agreement. It would cost me zero legal fees, I would win the case hands-down, and it would be on record for any future landlords to see. And if there was any justifiable damage to the unit, the security deposit would still be in dispute.

Which brings me to the next point. A landlord has to document justification for keeping the security deposit. A landlord does not want to be sued for keeping the security deposit, particularly without documentation. Courts frown on that. So being blamed for a leaky ceiling is highly unlikely. But do an honest assessment of the state of your apartment. Did you damage the floors? Did you damage the walls? The appliances? If not, you have nothing to worry about.

I'd suggest reaching out to your landlord and asking him to perform an inspection of the unit before you move out, so you can agree on any potential damages or lack thereof. Explain to him that you are moving out, and that your financial situation requires you to assess any potential costs involved.

In a nutshell, I recommend that you be above-board with all your dealings. The law is the ultimate arbiter of contracts, and you want it on your side. If you don't pay the rent, YOU'RE on the hook, and your deposit is still at risk. If the landlord doesn't return your security deposit, HE'S on the hook.

Don't be stupid.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

east, you give fair advice, but it presumes that the landlord is a reasonable person who plays by the rules.

If there's past evidence of this not being the case, it becomes much more complicated.

If a landlord illegally holds your deposit, you can take him/her to court, and win, but nothing will likely come of it.

Unlike the case for tenants (and black lists), small claims rulings aren't that much of a deterrent or obstacle for a landlord.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Even if the landlord is as unreasonable and greedy as we're assuming for the purposes of this exercise, he'd also have to be an idiot to _not_ sue the OP for failing to pay his last month's rent.

It costs nothing to sue someone, and if they won't show up in court anyway because they're moving out of town, you'll get an easy summary judgment and you can garnish their wages until the debt is paid.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Apartment Blues
getting it
Joined: Oct '09
Posts: 83

Thanks everyone. Very helpful thoughts. I fear that Eastbloc is probably right, paying that last month may be the best thing.

Eastbloc, as far as the floors go, I put in a new kitchen floor and a new bathroom floor (and re-cemented the toilet area). After 5 years, the kitchen floor has a few cracks in the tile, but I am leaving extra tile and my thinking is, after all, I installed it to fix the crappy floor which was there when I moved in.

We have drilled some Ikea cabinets in. So there will be drill holes. That is all I can think of.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Patch the holes. Putty is cheap and easy. DON'T leave the tile, or anything else the apartment did not come with, unless you discuss it with the landlord and he agrees. You can legitimately have your deposit docked for clean-up costs. Does he know you installed a new floor? If you already have the tile, you should consider replacing the cracked ones yourself, or paying to have it done if you're not comfortable with that.

If you don't want to do either of these things, make the landlord aware of it and reach an accommodation _before_ moving out. When your stuff is out of the unit, take photos of the empty apartment in entirety. There should be no photographically demonstrable damage to the unit. Send them to the landlord so he is aware that you have evidence of the state of the unit. That should be sufficient to compel him to do the right thing.

# Posted 1 yr ago
OpossumQueen
rocking it
Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 2,525

I understand your concern, though. A bad LL is why I first started posting on Brooklynian years ago. We ended up paying our last month (our LL was an attorney and we suspected he would take us to court if we tried the deposit thing), and he mailed us a check for the security deposit--it was less than half! We (two quiet adults) had done zero damage to the place and actually put a ton of work into cleaning the yard (which was literally full of trash and animal skeletons). We fought a little more out of him, but didn't really have the time or energy to take him to court, though we felt sure we would win.

Not all LLs are good/fair. He had three apartments on the same block, we were his first tenants to leave but I later found out he did this to all of his tenants. The worst was a couple who ended up having a baby right after adopting two (suddenly no kids to 3) and really needed every penny. Before we realized how bad he was (who needs working heat in January?) I remember a comment about how when he was a kid he "dreamed of becoming a slumlord". Nailed it.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Peanuts
above average
Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 577

Eastbloc, I would agree with you if this was a reasonable landlord. When I rented my first apartment I asked for the statement to see where my security was held - I never received it and I never got interest. I even filed a complaint (at that time it was with the attorney general's office - nothing ever came of it). So... I did not pay my last month's rent and forfeited my security because I knew I would never see it ... although I have to say the landlord agreed to let me do that - but I'm sure it's because my security deposit was long since spent by him for personal things

Peanuts

# Posted 1 yr ago
Apartment Blues
getting it
Joined: Oct '09
Posts: 83

Thanks again.

Yes, my landlord is well aware that I replaced the kitchen and bathroom floors. In 12 years I only asked for the apartment to be painted once and to get it done, I had to file a complaint with the city. My gut is that I should just move out and not worry about fixing the small things because I will never see that deposit and have no interest in battling a court case from out of state. I also know that I am leaving it much better than when I arrived (when I moved in the bathroom was covered in the previous tenant's mold).

I plan to take pictures and have a friend witness the apartment before I leave because I don't want some spurious lawsuit. Now that I am hearing everyone, I am beginning to feel that I do not need to clean it or fix those small things because I never expect to see the deposit.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

What sort of building was it? The landlord is not required to place your rent deposit in a separate interest-bearing account unless there are more than three units.

I would agree that not all landlords are good or fair. Bear in mind that not all tenants are good or fair. I suspect a lot of landlords don't start out being assholes, but are driven to it by the stresses of their role.

The "everyone does this, it's part of the game" mentality doesn't help. Abide by your contracts and endeavor to make the world a slightly less shitty place.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

eastbloc said:
Even if the landlord is as unreasonable and greedy as we're assuming for the purposes of this exercise, he'd also have to be an idiot to _not_ sue the OP for failing to pay his last month's rent.

It costs nothing to sue someone, and if they won't show up in court anyway because they're moving out of town, you'll get an easy summary judgment and you can garnish their wages until the debt is paid.

It costs nothing, but it requires time and effort, which is more than many slum lords are willing to put in.

Plus then the landlord is putting himself in front of a judge, which gives the tenant the opportunity to present the bigger picture. At which point the tenant can promise to pay the rent, but the landlord is then on record with the security deposit dispute/claim.

All I'm saying is, each situation is different and it is up to the tenant to evaluate their landlord's reputation. If this guy is a lazy, unresponsive jerkoff who has a history of keeping security deposits, yet i know I did not damage the apt, I would think long and hard about not paying last month's rent. (I have indeed been in this situation before)

When I got my time in front of a judge, I would explain to him or her why I did what I did, and even if they rule against me, the whole situation is now on record, including the landlord's history w/r/t to security deposits.

I suspect a lot of landlords don't start out being assholes, but are driven to it by the stresses of their role.

Cry me a river for all the slumlords in our fair city.

A slumlord means a tenant has a miserable living experience.

A shitty tenant means complications for a landlord's business investment.

The morality is not equal.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

AB, if you go that route, I suggest discussing it with your landlord. Otherwise, you risk a very much non-spurious and completely indefensible lawsuit against you regarding your last month's rent. You'll have to come to court in New York or risk a summary judgment. Your credit will be damaged and you'll still owe the money, and you'll _still_ need to sue to get your deposit back.

The law and the courts are very clear on this issue.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Apartment Blues
getting it
Joined: Oct '09
Posts: 83

Oh, I may have mispoke or been unclear, I am planning on paying that last month's rent, I just don't expect to ever see my deposit so I feel no need to clean like a pro or fix the small things like a tile crack.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Boygabriel said:
It costs nothing, but it requires time and effort, which is more than many slum lords are willing to put in.

It's very little effort for what I surmise is at least a thousand bucks. I'd do it. All the more so if I was a "slum lord" (whatever that means) as I'd be used to dealing with deadbeat tenants.

Plus then the landlord is putting himself in front of a judge, which gives the tenant the opportunity to present the bigger picture. At which point the tenant can promise to pay the rent, but the landlord is then on record with the security deposit dispute/claim.

I suppose you've never been in a courtroom before. I can tell you that the judge will give precisely one rat's ass about issues secondary to the case. Being "on record" about something irrelevant is useless.

Absolutely nothing short of a lease dispute (i.e. some sort of breach of contract on the landlord's part) gives you the right to withhold rent you're contractually obligated to pay, and even then you have to put the rent into a separate account to show the court you had every intention of paying it when the demands were met. Unless you have it in writing that the last month's rent can be covered by the security deposit, it cannot.

All I'm saying is, each situation is different and it is up to the tenant to evaluate their landlord's reputation. If this guy is a lazy, unresponsive jerkoff who has a history of keeping security deposits, yet i know I did not damage the apt, I would think long and hard about not paying last month's rent. (I have indeed been in this situation before)

It's up to the tenant to evaluate their landlord's reputation BEFORE they move in. Once they sign a contract, it's up to them to live up to the letter of it. When you do not pay the last month's rent, YOU'RE the jerk-off, and you'll be adjudicated as such by the courts.

When I got my time in front of a judge, I would explain to him or her why I did what I did, and even if they rule against me, the whole situation is now on record, including the landlord's history w/r/t to security deposits.

This would work perhaps if _you_ were the one suing to reclaim an unfairly withheld security deposit. Try this in defense of not paying the rent and you'll be the laughing stock of the courtroom.

I suspect a lot of landlords don't start out being assholes, but are driven to it by the stresses of their role.

Cry me a river for all the slumlords in our fair city.

A slumlord means a tenant has a miserable living experience.

A shitty tenant means complications for a landlord's business investment.

It's a complication for the landlord's source of income, and therefore directly impacts his or her living experience. Imagination is not your strong suit, is it?

The morality is not equal.

The law is not concerned with your moral doctrines. It's concerned with whether a bona fide contract was violated, and by whom.

By not paying the rent, you're in the wrong in the eyes of the law.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Apartment Blues said:
Oh, I may have mispoke or been unclear, I am planning on paying that last month's rent, I just don't expect to ever see my deposit so I feel no need to clean like a pro or fix the small things like a tile crack.

And that is completely fair and within your legal rights.

If you're going to do that, you may consider getting a sledgehammer and going to town. Might as well get your money's worth

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

eastbloc said:
It's very little effort for what I surmise is at least a thousand bucks. I'd do it. All the more so if I was a "slum lord" (whatever that means) as I'd be used to dealing with deadbeat tenants.

I suppose you've never been in a courtroom before. I can tell you that the judge will give precisely one rat's ass about issues secondary to the case. Being "on record" about something irrelevant is useless.

When I got free legal advice in the early 2000's due to a similar situation that is not what the lawyer told me, but what do they know?

Absolutely nothing short of a lease dispute (i.e. some sort of breach of contract on the landlord's part) gives you the right to withhold rent you're contractually obligated to pay, and even then you have to put the rent into a separate account to show the court you had every intention of paying it when the demands were met. Unless you have it in writing that the last month's rent can be covered by the security deposit, it cannot.

I never said anybody had the legal right to withhold last month's rent.

It's up to the tenant to evaluate their landlord's reputation BEFORE they move in. Once they sign a contract, it's up to them to live up to the letter of it. When you do not pay the last month's rent, YOU'RE the jerk-off, and you'll be adjudicated as such by the courts.

Yes, however you're fully aware that getting the full story of a landlord's reputation is difficult if not impossible beforehand. Many times the scumminess of a landlord doesn't come out until you've moved in and met fellow tenants.

As jerk-off is not a legal term, I assume we're using our own sense of morals?

If a landlord doesn't make repairs, is impossible to reach, and refuses to improve a bad apartment, and a tenant withholds the rent, the landlord is still the jerk-off, regardless of who is legally in the wrong.

Again, jerkoff and legal ruling are not synonymous.

It's a complication for the landlord's source of income, and therefore directly impacts his or her living experience. Imagination is not your strong suit, is it?

Luckily my point requires no imagination at all! How fortuitous!

If it's a management company, or someone who owns more than a couple buildings, the direct impact on quality of life from a shitty tenant is minimal compared to someone having to live in a shit hole apartment with no heat in the winter and a landlord who refuses to take phone calls (true story). If you want more details, just ask. I kept all my files from similar disputes I had.

The law is not concerned with your moral doctrines. It's concerned with whether a bona fide contract was violated, and by whom.

I wasn't talking about the law, I was talking about your subtle pivot from irresponsible landlords to irresponsible tenants. It's false equivalency. See above.

By not paying the rent, you're in the wrong in the eyes of the law.

I never claimed otherwise.

Also - No need to use slumlord in quotes. It's a widely used and accepted term with specific meaning. If the shorthand is problematic for you, I'm happy to type out all the ways in which a landlord becomes a slumlord.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slumlord

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
booklaw
admin
Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 2,408

In my experience most judges look at the entire picture. If you withhold two months' rent, the judge will come down on you. But if you withhold only one month's rent, and can prove that you left the apartment in immaculate condition, and asked the landlord to apply the security deposit in lieu of the last month's rent (and allowed the landlord to keep all accumulated interest on the deposit), then the landlord has not been damaged, and the judge is not likely to penalize you.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Boygabriel said:
When I got free legal advice in the early 2000's due to a similar situation that is not what the lawyer told me, but what do they know?

Well, you got what you paid for.

I never said anybody had the legal right to withhold last month's rent.

It's just a moral right, then?

Yes, however you're fully aware that getting the full story of a landlord's reputation is difficult if not impossible beforehand. Many times the scumminess of a landlord doesn't come out until you've moved in and met fellow tenants.

As jerk-off is not a legal term, I assume we're using our own sense of morals?

I'm just using terms you seem to be familiar with.

If a landlord doesn't make repairs, is impossible to reach, and refuses to improve a bad apartment, and a tenant withholds the rent, the landlord is still the jerk-off, regardless of who is legally in the wrong.

If the tenant withholds rent according to the provisions laid out in the law under the circumstances (i.e. failure to make repairs) the tenant will be legally in the right. The rent would have to be deposited in a separate account in order to demonstrate good faith on the part of the tenant.

Luckily my point requires no imagination at all! How fortuitous!

If it's a management company, or someone who owns more than a couple buildings, the direct impact on quality of life from a shitty tenant is minimal compared to someone having to live in a shit hole apartment with no heat in the winter and a landlord who refuses to take phone calls (true story). If you want more details, just ask. I kept all my files from similar disputes I had.

I'm sorry to hear about your PTSD, but do we have any reason to suspect the OP had no heat in the winter? Or do you just have a hard time separating your own experiences from the rest of the world?

If I found myself in a shithole apartment with no heat in the winter, I'd do the following:

1) call 311
2) withhold the rent by placing it in a separate account and send a certified letter to the landlord with this information and what he needs to do to remediate.
3) buy a space heater, keep the receipt, calculate the energy utilization for keeping it running and save the records for the courts
4) plan to move, doing better homework next time. Why wait until you move in to talk to the neighbors?

I wasn't talking about the law, I was talking about your subtle pivot from irresponsible landlords to irresponsible tenants. It's false equivalency. See above.

See above what? Where you made a similar assertion? You're citing yourself as a source? Clever.

Also - No need to use slumlord in quotes. It's a widely used and accepted term with specific meaning. If the shorthand is problematic for you, I'm happy to type out all the ways in which a landlord becomes a slumlord.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slumlord

Wikipedia is a step up, at least.

What I'm not getting is where you get the idea that OP's landlord is a slumlord. What I _am_ is that you have a relativistic moral code by which you would contemplate breaking an agreement based on the supposition that the other party may do so on the basis of an ostensible asymmetry of interests.

I'm inclined to see this as a thin veil over what fundamentally is your own self-interest. Given your one-sided POV, perhaps if the shoe was on the other foot you'd even be a slumlord yourself?

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

booklaw said:
In my experience most judges look at the entire picture. If you withhold two months' rent, the judge will come down on you. But if you withhold only one month's rent, and can prove that you left the apartment in immaculate condition, and asked the landlord to apply the security deposit in lieu of the last month's rent (and allowed the landlord to keep all accumulated interest on the deposit), then the landlord has not been damaged, and the judge is not likely to penalize you.

That's a lot of ifs, and at the end of the day it only holds true if the landlord agrees to it.

Especially if you're moving out of town, I simply wouldn't risk the suit. The stress alone is not worth it.

# Posted 1 yr ago
booklaw
admin
Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 2,408

No... what I said does not only hold true if the landlord agrees to it. The landlord can scream all he wants, but if he cannot prove monetary damages, the tenant walks away without penalty.

# Posted 1 yr ago
Boygabriel
M Train Devotee, G Train Appreciator
Joined: Nov '05
Posts: 4,431

booklaw said:
In my experience most judges look at the entire picture. If you withhold two months' rent, the judge will come down on you. But if you withhold only one month's rent, and can prove that you left the apartment in immaculate condition, and asked the landlord to apply the security deposit in lieu of the last month's rent (and allowed the landlord to keep all accumulated interest on the deposit), then the landlord has not been damaged, and the judge is not likely to penalize you.

That was the legal advice I was given.

Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org

# Posted 1 yr ago
Peanuts
above average
Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 577

Eastbloc - I was in a 16 unit rent stabilized building. We had no superintendent, my landlord never painted, never provided exterminators. When I asked him for proof of where my security deposit was, he walked away.

Peanuts

# Posted 1 yr ago
psbklyn
rookie newb
Joined: Oct '10
Posts: 21

Maybe you are a decent and above-board landlord who gives back deposits, but there are some who don't. I had a landlady come up with a fake reason not to give me back my deposit -- $350, if you can believe (this was in MN some time ago) -- and I looked up public records on her that showed a very lengthy record showing she routinely pulled this on tenants. I took her to small claims court and won.

# Posted 1 yr ago
eastbloc
comprador bourgeois
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 902

Good, and I'm glad for you. You _should_ do that to landlords who abuse their end of the contract, no question.

# Posted 1 yr ago