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pedestrian hit on 4th ave last night around 6:30

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    1. kosherdave
      kosherdave

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      I was standing on 4th ave last night (around president or union)and saw the worst sight of my life. A man getting hit head on by a car going (in my opinion) around 40 or 50 mph. He went up into the air at LEAST 20 feet it a slow motion cartwheel. That image is burned into my brain.

      I didn't see if the car ran the light or had the light so I can't comment on fault. But I can say it was horrific.

      I called 911 and within 2 minutes the ambulance came and they had him on a stretcher.

      Props to the Brooklyn folk who jumped to the rescue and helped divert traffic and get the area cleared so he could get to the hospital. I'm sure that had a big impact on his survival.

      The EMTs couldn't tell me where they'd likely take him (legal reasons) but I wonder if anyone knows who he was or how he's doing? They did say he was able to talk when he was in the truck, though I can't imagine how!

      I'd like to know if he was ok.

    2. booklaw
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      Did the driver stop and face the music? Or did he take off?

    3. anthonycm
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      Streetsblog has the story.

      http://tinyurl.com/3nz98x5

    4. kosherdave
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      Thanks for the link anthonycm.

      He was not mid block as streetsblog notes. Not sure why the trans. alt guy (who arrived after the fact) said that, although maybe it is because the ped ended up mid block. But he was most definitely crossing at the corner.

      Also, the driver did stop. Skidded to a stop and got out and I think was trying to help. Faced the music I guess you'd say. He wasn't drinking as far as I could tell (and I could hear the cop questioning him).

    5. User has not uploaded an avatar
      EntropyQueen

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      Hey, I work for the Brooklyn Lyceum, and it was our open mic night so ALL of us happened to be there to witness it, along with all of the usual weekly performers. I am so relieved the guy is not critically injured or worse. It was ghastly
      We are all going to send him a card, we think it might be nice for him to know so many people cared if he was ok, let me know if you would like to be part of that regan[at]brooklynlyceum.com

      as my friend Maja said to me last night after we spend a few miles walking this all off
      "remember we are alive deliberately"

    6. danny hellman
      Danny Hellman

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      4th Ave is Death Race 2000. It needs bike lanes, speed bumps, and anything else you can think of to stifle those speeding psychos.

    7. kosherdave
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      Yeah, 4th definitely needs something.

      People use it as a freeway. I'm not saying you should or should not have a car, but it IS a residential neighborhood and if you're driving that fast, you're gonna hit someone, whether it's your "fault" or not, and that's gonna suck for a lot of people involved!

      It would make that end of the hood a LOT nicer if they did something to slow down the traffic.

    8. homeowner
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      Dave, the problem is that 4th Avenue was designed as a truck route and serves as an alternative to the BQE, and it has played that role far longer than its been "a residential neighborhood". Fourth Ave was traditionally warehousing, light industry and related businesses. I'd suggest that people who choose to live on that street should have recognized that before they moved there.

      That's not to say that I think its okay to smack pedestrians down in the middle of the street, but its a six lane two way street. Why would you expect it to behave like a quiet country road?

    9. User has not uploaded an avatar
      bookistan

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      Oh come on mod, you've got to be kidding. Fourth Avenue was rezoned for residential several years ago but the city has been remiss in reviewing and updating transportation policies for this street. Have you seen the number of people that spill out of the Union St. and 9th St. subway stations at rush hour? There are literally thousands of new residents along the 4th Avenue corridor, and an awful lot of them are families. This is not the first time that this has happened and it won't be the last until the city enforces new traffic rules in this area. Unfortunately, I don't think the city will do something until a small child is run down by one of those trucks or speeding cars. For now, the only thing to do is be a defensive pedestrian.

    10. User has not uploaded an avatar
      Peanuts

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      So sorry you had to see that - I saw a young woman get hit once and like you it was etched in my brain...just so you know, that eventually passes.

      I used to live on 11th Street near 4th Avenue and there were constantly animals that were hit by cars there - there is way too much speeding...and the lights to cross 4th Avenue are way too short - I don't now how the elderly do it, or anyone with a handicap.

      Peanuts
    11. danny hellman
      Danny Hellman

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      I don't know whether or not 4th Ave was designed as a truck route, but if it was, I'd guess that this was back when the Brooklyn Waterfront was a much busier place, and when there were far fewer passenger cars clogging the roadways. Is there some reason, (beyond maximizing profit) that trucks should be allowed to careen through our residential neighborhoods at deadly speeds? And what about Third Ave south of the Prospect Ave Expressway? Doesn't that delightful place already fulfill our needs in the Hellish speeding truck route department?

    12. kosherdave
      kosherdave

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      Mod, I believe you that it was once zoned differently, but times do change, as do neighborhoods.

      If the city is going to allow those new big apts to be built along 4th (and that silly, over priced hotel), you'd think they'd take some responsibility to make the area safer for the people they are allowing to spend lots of money (and pay lots of taxes) to live there.

      Now, I'm not sure what the solution should be, but I think enforcing the speed limit or lowering it a bit would be a good start. Timing the lights so people can't get up to 50mph would be good too. I don't expect it to ever become a quiet country road, I mean, I realize we're in NYC (I choose to live here because I DON'T want quiet country roads) but I do want a wee bit of safety.

      And Peanuts, thanks for that, it's good to hear.

      ALSO
      I heard back from a close friend of the pedestrian. He's at Lutheran hospital undergoing surgery (right now I believe) to relieve bleeding to the brain. He also has a broken jaw and arm, but not a broken back which I'd venture is very positive. Sounds like a serious surgery, but it also sounds promising.

    13. homeowner said:
      That's not to say that I think its okay to smack pedestrians down in the middle of the street, but its a six lane two way street. Why would you expect it to behave like a quiet country road?

      Personally I expect cars and more important trucks to go remotely near the speed limit. And if not, for the police to enforce it.

      I was under the impression the police exist in order to promote public safety.

      When cars and pedestrians collide, it's always a one-sided affair.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    14. booklaw
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      As a longtime driver in New York City, I am much more concerned about photo-radar traps than I am about cops in cars or on motorcycles.

      In my experience, the odds in NYC of being caught speeding or in any other traffic infraction by a live police person are very, very small.

      I am more concerned about being totaled by a police car blowing through a red light without siren or lights on the way home or to buy donuts.

    15. For a long time I was weary of speed & red light cameras, but the simple fact is that when those cameras go in, speeds go down, and lives are saved.

      I can't help but think it's a reasonable trade off.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    16. booklaw
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      Much as I dislike the sneaky speed cameras, I have to agree with you.

    17. I hated them for a long time and hate even more the road that starts us down.

      But you have to balance public safety. Few things are more dangerous to New Yorkers than people speeding and running red lights.

      If the NYPD can't be bothered to regulate this in person (they can't), then we have to resort to other options.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    18. armchair_warrior
      armchair_warrior

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      they should change the streets, it is use as a freeway, right now there is no alternative, unless they plan to do the big tunnel like they wanted decades ago, i doubt it, can't afford it. this should be built like under the gawanus or something.

      Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
      I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).
    19. armchair_warrior
      armchair_warrior

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      NYC speed traps are a joke, they only hide in some spots, i see them all the time. but nyc has more stop sign traps but they are only in certain spots too.

      Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
      I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).
    20. armchair_warrior said:
      they should change the streets, it is use as a freeway, right now there is no alternative, unless they plan to do the big tunnel like they wanted decades ago, i doubt it, can't afford it. this should be built like under the gawanus or something.

      There's a giant highway that runs right through the borough.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    21. booklaw
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      BG, do you mean the BQE/Belt? That actually runs around the borough, rather than through it. The Gowanus Expressway? That would fit your statement, except that it is woefully short, dumping all traffic into Ocean Parkway, which isn't a Parkway at all, because there are traffic lights at nearly every intersection.

      It would greatly improve driving if Brooklyn had a real highway network throughout the borough, as many more modern cities do, but it will only happen if Robert Moses is reincarnated.

    22. whynot_31
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      Nah, not even he could pull it off in today's environment.

      It has become very hard for people to obtain imminent domain. Other countries can dislocate people for massive public works projects. Other countries do not put the same weight on individual property rights.

      We lack high speed rail for this reason (among others).

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    23. booklaw
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      Isn't Atlantic Yards proof to the contrary?

    24. whynot_31
      whynot_31

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      Atlantic Yards is the subject of much debate re: whether a private stadium should receive public funds.

      I'll try to sidestep that debate here. But will assert that without the support of Barclays and the power of Ratner, the project would not have happened. Such profit and future tax streams got it thru.

      Roads and trains are rarely profitable. In today's world, they don't happen like they did in the past ....much to the chagrin of the aspiring Robert Moses.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    25. armchair_warrior
      armchair_warrior

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      this is what i'm talking about :p, but they had these type of plans since before the big dig and the city "fathers" at the time though hmmm lets wait and see what happens in Boston first LOL.

      In 1997, the Regional Plan Association (RPA) released a report paid by the New York City Council indicating that a tunnel to replace the elevated Gowanus Expressway was not only technically feasible, but also desirable aesthetically to surrounding communities. The tunnel would begin at the intersection of the Gowanus Expressway, Belt Parkway and the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge approach (I-278) in Bay Ridge. The Gowanus Tunnel would continue north through Sunset Park and under the Gowanus Canal to Red Hook, terminating at the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway (I-278) and the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel approach (I-478).

      Under the RPA plan, the increased space provided by the demolition of the elevated Gowanus Expressway would be used to develop a tree-lined boulevard along Third Avenue. Eventually, esplanades and parks would be created along the Bay Ridge, Sunset Park and Red Hook waterfronts.

      In 2001, the NYSDOT began to study 13 different tunnel alternatives for the Gowanus Expressway from the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge approach to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel approach. While the north-south alignments of the proposed Gowanus Tunnel differed - routes were selected along the waterfront, First Avenue, Second Avenue and Third Avenue - most alignments featured the following design conventions:

      Four inbound (eastbound) and three westbound (outbound) lanes would be provided through the tunnel. One lane in the eastbound direction would be established for HOV use during peak periods.

      New interchanges would be constructed so as to minimize weaving problems. There are to be new underground grade-separated interchanges at the Belt Parkway, Prospect Expressway (NY 27) and the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel (I-478), and reconstruction of existing highway approaches to the Gowanus Tunnel.

      Five of the 13 alternatives move the terminus of the Belt Parkway to the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge approach, providing a direct connection to the Gowanus Tunnel at this point.)

      Eight of the 13 alternatives provide a new underground trumpet interchange in the vicinity of 39th Street to serve the Sunset Park area.

      Two of the 13 alternatives provide a 9,250-foot-long deepwater tunnel beneath the Brooklyn piers. The tunnel would be constructed at least 75 feet beneath the surface to permit operation of the deepwater port.

      The NYSDOT prepared a comprehensive environmental impact statement to determine the best way to improve the expressway, and in 2006 gave preliminary approval to build a 3.5-mile-long, seven-lane tunnel costing an estimated $12.8 billion. Before any construction takes place, a number of obstacles from existing utility and sewer lines to the placement of a cross-harbor freight rail tunnel, need to be taken into account. Finally, if a tunnel were to be built, one or more methods - bored tunnel, cut-and-cover tunnel or immersed tunnel - may be used. The tunnel would be scheduled for completion by 2020.


      http://www.nycroads.com/roads/gowanus/

      they had so many of these studies over the years never actually would have the balls or money to do it.

      oh check out the site tons of interesting stuff about the Gowanus.

      Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
      I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure).
    26. I'm not sure why there should be highways THROUGH city centers and densely populated neighborhoods.

      We need to facilitate commerce and encourage public transit.

      We do not need to be encouraging or facilitating private vehicles driving 50 mph down 4th avenue as it slowly converts into a very residential corridor.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    27. booklaw
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      Example: if Atlantic Avenue were converted into a limited access highway from Flatbush to Conduit Avenue, and Conduit were similarly converted, then getting out to Kennedy Airport by bus or car would take only a few minutes.

      If there were a limited access highway connecting downtown Brooklyn to the Jackie Robinson, getting to LaGuardia would be quick and easy.

      It'll never happen, but a fella can dream...

    28. Hmm, interesting.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    29. whynot_31
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      Booklaws solution might work if it could keep up with demand and no one brokedown.

      LIRR in combo with airtrain does it in about 40 min ....same route.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    30. I heart airtrain.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    31. idlewild
      Idlewild

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      booklaw said:
      Example: if Atlantic Avenue were converted into a limited access highway from Flatbush to Conduit Avenue, and Conduit were similarly converted, then getting out to Kennedy Airport by bus or car would take only a few minutes.

      If there were a limited access highway connecting downtown Brooklyn to the Jackie Robinson, getting to LaGuardia would be quick and easy.

      It'll never happen, but a fella can dream...

      Downtown Brooklyn to the Jackie Robinson via EP is a long way out of the way to get to LGA. Limited or not. What's wrong with the BQE? Besides the usual tie up before the LIE exit off the Kosciuszko Bridge.

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    32. booklaw
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      Given the traffic on the BQE, I find it's actually quicker to take Eastern Parkway to the Jackie Robinson. If there were an xpressway to the Jackie Robinson, it would be quicker still.

    33. idlewild
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      Boygabriel said:
      I'm not sure why there should be highways THROUGH city centers and densely populated neighborhoods.

      We need to facilitate commerce and encourage public transit.

      We do not need to be encouraging or facilitating private vehicles driving 50 mph down 4th avenue as it slowly converts into a very residential corridor.

      Private vehicles are here to stay. Whether they be gas driven rotary or electrical magnetic. The trick is to slow these guys down. A simple timing adjustment of the lights and making some avenues a commercial only transit would certainly slow things down. Public transit? With all due respect, it's a fucking joke. In between the persistent fare raises, the constant delays and rerouting and filth, who wants to deal with it? We have one of the most antiquated mass public transit systems on earth. We can't even get disabled people down to most of the subway stations. We have no direct express/high-speed going to our airports from any point in the five boroughs. Save the Air Tran which you have to take the LIRR. Work on the solutions first and your problems will solve themselves. When I was in Edmonton, Canukia, a city with half the population of Brooklyn but more than twice the area, their mass transit ran like clockwork and were 70% filled off-hours. And this is a place that is very car friendly. No one had to take the trains or buses. But they did because of the efficiency, cleanliness and fare.

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    34. idlewild
      Idlewild

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      booklaw said:
      Given the traffic on the BQE, I find it's actually quicker to take Eastern Parkway to the Jackie Robinson. If there were an xpressway to the Jackie Robinson, it would be quicker still.

      I'm shocked to hear this. Even as an opinion. However, my cab driver past is urging me to try your route out of sheer curiosity. Just to make clarify: you're saying downtown Brooklyn as in Fulton Street Mall, the courts, Livingston Street and so on?

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    35. Idlewild said:
      Private vehicles are here to stay. Whether they be gas driven rotary or electrical magnetic. The trick is to slow these guys down. A simple timing adjustment of the lights and making some avenues a commercial only transit would certainly slow things down. Public transit? With all due respect, it's a fucking joke. In between the persistent fare raises, the constant delays and rerouting and filth, who wants to deal with it? We have one of the most antiquated mass public transit systems on earth. We can't even get disabled people down to most of the subway stations. We have no direct express/high-speed going to our airports from any point in the five boroughs. Save the Air Tran which you have to take the LIRR. Work on the solutions first and your problems will solve themselves. When I was in Edmonton, Canukia, a city with half the population of Brooklyn but more than twice the area, their mass transit ran like clockwork and were 70% filled off-hours. And this is a place that is very car friendly. No one had to take the trains or buses. But they did because of the efficiency, cleanliness and fare.

      I was commenting on what I think govt priorities should be, not what I expect to happen (which is more of the same b.s.)

      Discourage personal cars, especially in densely populated city centers and commercial districts.

      Encourage public transit with more funding, more oversight, bridge & tunnel tolls, city center fees, dedicated bus lanes, etc etc.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    36. idlewild
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      I know you are. I was expressing my thoughts as well. Look, I would love nothing better than to see streets free of cars, whether they're roaming or parked. All cars except my own, of course. But in order for even a small dent of this to happen mass transit has to be shaken to the core and literally revolutionized. Having automated train schedules and talking trains (as in robo-announcing the stops) is all well and good. I'll even say it's a nice first step. But not when you're a below working class Joe or Josephine and have to struggle to pay a week's round-trip. And especially when you have to wait in dirty train stations, which if they were restaurants, would be shut down by the DOH. In the meantime, the City needs to slow down the traffic on major routes like 4th Ave.

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    37. booklaw
      booklaw

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      Idlewild, I typically leave from 7th Avenue and Garfield Street.

      If there were an expressway from downtown Brooklyn to the Jackie Robinson, that would be far better than the BQE. As it is now, I would not take the Jackie Robinson from downtown Brooklyn.

    38. I agree, Idle.

      Public transportation should be free, and should receive more funding.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    39. idlewild
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      booklaw said:
      Idlewild, I typically leave from 7th Avenue and Garfield Street.

      If there were an expressway from downtown Brooklyn to the Jackie Robinson, that would be far better than the BQE. As it is now, I would not take the Jackie Robinson from downtown Brooklyn.

      Okay. I wasn't sure. I believe I see what you mean. And yes, taking the Jackie Robinson from PS is certainly a viable alternative. But only, IMO, during afternoon rush hour when the lights are synched south & east bound.

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    40. whynot_31
      whynot_31

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      But how would we prevent too many people from utilizing the new roads?

      What would stop the new roads from becoming like the current ones?

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    41. idlewild
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      If gas goes above $4.25 a gallon regular, it may solve a good portion of the traffic problem. If it hits $5.00, I know it will. We can all trade in our cars to pay the utilities.

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    42. booklaw
      booklaw

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      Imagine the disruption that will cause in cities built for cars, with no subways, limited bus routes, etc.

      Imagine also the disruption in states like Texas or the Dakotas, with huge distances between cities and extremely limited public transportation.

    43. whynot_31
      whynot_31

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      I think an increase in the price of fuel will merely cause people to take less discretionary trips.

      In many cases (and places), a private vehicle would continue to provide most efficient choice in terms of time and money.

      As someone who grew up outside of NYC, I remember the DOT constructing Share A Ride lots only to have them be unused. It was as if they thought all of those vehicles with one person in them would just magically be able to find someone else going to the same location at the same time, and then want to return home at the same time. Very naive.

      Nope, public transportation won't help everyone. Those who live in remote areas will still need a car, if only to drive to the train station.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
    44. idlewild
      Idlewild

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      whynot_31 said:
      I think an increase in the price of fuel will merely cause people to take less discretionary trips.

      In many cases (and places), a private vehicle would continue to provide most efficient choice in terms of time and money.

      As someone who grew up outside of NYC, I remember the DOT constructing Share A Ride lots only to have them be unused. It was as if they thought all of those vehicles with one person in them would just magically be able to find someone else going to the same location at the same time, and then want to return home at the same time. Very naive.

      Nope, public transportation won't help everyone. Those who live in remote areas will still need a car, if only to drive to the train station.

      Are you talking about suburb into NYC discretionary or borough to borough? I kind of remember seeing much less traffic on Flatbush Ave when we had the last gas hike a few years back. I could literally jay-walk without fear.

      "Clamato! Straight Up! No chasah!
    45. booklaw said:
      Imagine the disruption that will cause in cities built for cars, with no subways, limited bus routes, etc.

      Imagine also the disruption in states like Texas or the Dakotas, with huge distances between cities and extremely limited public transportation.

      Also the entire rest of the world gets by with gas costing nearly double (or more) what it costs here.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    46. booklaw
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      The rest of the world doesn't drive massive SUV's, vans or pickup trucks...

      Have you been to Europe lately? You can fit their cars in the trunk of many American cars.

    47. But we're talking about the areas of the country where cars are more compulsive for regional travel, right?

      If you are only using your car to commute or run errands, I don't see what's wrong with weaning these people off any unnecessarily large vehicles.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    48. booklaw
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      I agree with you. But it won't be easy or painless to achieve that goal.

    49. No doubt.

      Spend a buck, light a number for one the 400,000 victims in Darfur: darfurwall.org
    50. whynot_31
      whynot_31

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      The more things change, the more they stay the same. ??

      http://www.youtube.com/v/EdDUmvPK2OM&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded

      ....things have gotten much better.

      For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

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