There is a ticketing blitz in prospect Park today for cyclists who don't stop at red lights. It's obviously an attempt to make the park safer for pedestrians.
As a cyclist it seems a bit dangerous given that the yellow light is only 2 to 3 seconds long before it turns red and if you are riding with cleats it doesn't give you enough time to time to safely slow down.
How do other people feel about it?
I hate the racers there. they think they are lance or something.
I rode my bike around 3 laps yesterday, and saw a Lance Armstrong wanna bee yell "look before you cross" at some picnicer who was crossing in the crosswalk, with the walk signal, and pulling a massive wheeled cooler.
I'm glad the cops are out today. I'll make sure to waive to them when I pass by, because I don't want the cops or the picnickers to think that all park bikers are jerks.
I hope they use the revenue from the tickets for more enforcement. While Being unable to stop for a the present lights in time might be a sign that they should make the yellows longer, it could also be a sign that you are going too fast for the conditions, and/or that cleats are silly in the park during times when it is crowded, such as weekends between 9 am to 7 pm.
I was walking in the park and also witnessed 10 bikers run the red light while I tried to cross at the green light at the pedestrian crossing. I say ticket away!
they could just build a cheap bicycle circle just for these racers they could go round and round.
On weekends and daylight hours in general? Absolutely! Now, when will the City ban all of the car traffic? Has anyone else noticed that the automobiles come precariously closer to the cyclists now that the lanes have been changed?
As a guy who has done over 1,100 miles in Prospect Park already this year I think if you're trying to get training laps in during the middle of the day on either a Saturday or a Sunday you're an idiot. There's a time and a place for sub-10 minute laps and it's not weekend afternoons.
At the same time I hope the police will be as strict in ticketing the "salmon" in the park as they are ticketing the folks who run the red lights.
Since we're on the subject of PP has anyone else noticed that since the lanes have been changed many joggers/runners seem to exhibit the same sense of entitlement and run in the buffer zone between the cyclists and the running lane. How stupid is that?
Agree, you shouldn't be training in the park in the middle of the day on a weekend. I'm not sure you have to be training to be impacted by the red light stoppages.
That said, do you think its reasonable to be able to train early in the morning on the weekend? I train most of the week between 5-8AM. I wouldn't expect that to be much of an issue even on a weekend morning. Just curious what others think and if there is indeed a window that is acceptable, what do you think that window is?
Because I have concluded we can not rely on the common sense of bikers, walkers, rollerbladers, or joggers, I am ok with the cop having discretion who to ticket and for what.
I think everyone asking themselves "is this going to cause the cop to see me as a jerk?" is a good thing.
....a $60 fine and a lecture from someone with a gun is not a bad thing.
some cops are jerks too.
99% of the ticktets are fair but sometimes its just wtf. I gotten a few of those.
One time one cop was trying to get a easy arrest not ticket related but tenant related lol.
One of my tenants left alot of fireworks in their storage/garage when they left.
I call the cops to hand them in. They were there for a long time trying to convince me to admit it was mine. he kept questioning me for like 10 mins or so. at that point i was getting angry. I told him flat out.
Are you going to take it officer or not? He tried to talk more, but at that point i was like, look I'm going to throw this into the garbage right now. If someone gets hurt, there is a record of it I called it in and you refused to take it. He stop taking and took it. and left. That guy was a huge dick.
I fear a society free of jerks will always be elusive.
I think it is possible to train early in the morning on weekends and I have certainly done that on occasion. However I have noticed that there is an obvious uptick in park users after 9:00AM and the loop is no longer a safe and viable option. When that happens I generally take to the Windsor Park & South Slope areas for some hill repeats, etc..
I think this is crazy.
Tomorrow the cops will be gone and nobody will stop at the lights. People who only go into the park on weekdays will don't even know that the traffic lights mean anything.
Tomorrow, the park will be less full than today. Going thru red lights is less inconsiderate and less dangerous when there is no one around.
The police are using discretion in enforcing the law, because some park users (bikers, joggers, picnicers etc) do not adapt to the changing conditions, and need "help" from an authority figure to think things thru.
Good use of resources.
I hope the cops come back each weekend until it gets cold and the park is less used.
On weekends the park traffic lights only turn red when a pedestrian pushes the walk button. In other words the red light isn't BS, bikers need to stop. Pedestrians have the right to safely cross.
so they actually have a real push button that works, it was a urban myth for decades :p.
They fixed the buttons
whynot_31 said:
Tomorrow, the park will be less full than today. Going thru red lights is less inconsiderate and less dangerous when there is no one around.The police are using discretion in enforcing the law, because some park users (bikers, joggers, picnicers etc) do not adapt to the changing conditions, and need "help" from an authority figure to think things thru.
Good use of resources.
I hope the cops come back each weekend until it gets cold and the park is less used.
and the people who ride on Monday's wont even know that they are supposed to stop at the lights.
Also, anyone who rides in Central Park or along the Hudson River Greenway will not know they ever have to stop at the lights. Both those parks have signs that say yield in pedestrian crosswalks, not stop.
I took some photos......
http://whatyourdonotknowbecauseyouarenotme.blogspot.com/2012/04/beginning-of-better.html
Here's some more background on what was going in PP yesterday.
http://brooklynspoke.com/2012/07/17/volunteers-needed-in-prospect-park/
If the park wanted to make things safer their education program would be to remind people that the road is a mixed use place..... That everyone should just pay attention.
Not to make bikers stop at the random places that a trafic light happens to be.
Do you expect the police to either always be present, or never be present?
To me it seems like they are being present when most needed. The rest of the time, the pedestrians and bikers seem to be sparse enough that they will co-exist.
There are also a lot dumber bikers and pedestrians on weekends; They need to be told to think.
whynot_31 said:
Do you expect the police to either always be present, or never be present?To me it seems like they are being present when most needed. The rest of the time, the pedestrians and bikers seem to be sparse enough that they will co-exist.
There are also a lot dumber bikers and pedestrians on weekends; They need to be told to think.
so "the rest of the time" it is ok to run the lights?
This is just going to make things more confusing
Well, officially it will never be ok to run red lights, but you won't get a consequence unless you do it at a really crowded time, when you should know better.
Much of life involves discretion. One thinks about whether the law makes sense at a given moment, with the probability of getting caught.
The police seem to believe too many bikers are deciding it doesn't make sense to stop, in circumstances when it is the polite and safe thing to do.
...they are trying to make them think more.
Running a red light is illegal all the time for bikers. The fact was that for eons it was rarely enforced because bikers were considered to be knowing entitites that understood and accepted the risk that came with running a red, similar to the way jaywalking is an accepted practice for pedestrians. However, with this push to make bikes a publicly sanctioned mode of transportation and with the designation of public ways strictly for bikers, y'all are going to have to start abiding strictly by the law. That means stopping at red lights all the time, in all places, including parks where other vehicles (cars, trucks, etc) would be required to abide by traffic laws. Its the law and bikers shouldn't be asking to be exempted from the law while requiring all other vehicles to strictly follow it.
This page seems to confirm that folks acknowledge that this is going to be a tedious process for everyone involved:
This page confirms that when cars are absent (such as on weekends) the traffic lights are green unless a pedestrian pushes the button:
http://www.prospectpark.org/about/community-news-updates-post/update-on-the-park-drives
So, when a biker runs a red light on a weekend, s/he is doing it not only in violation of the law but also after a pedestrian has waited to cross the street.
...sounds like said biker deserves a ticket to me.
whynot_31 said:
This page confirms that when cars are absent (such as on weekends) the traffic lights are green unless a pedestrian pushes the button:http://www.prospectpark.org/about/community-news-updates-post/update-on-the-park-drives
So, when a biker runs a red light on a weekend, s/he is doing it not only in violation of the law but also after a pedestrian has waited to cross the street.
...sounds like said biker deserves a ticket to me.
and bikers don't stop at lights. I am not saying they shouldn't but the vast majority of bikers in NYC do not. The fact that some "Task Force" asked for some random Sunday enforcement is not going to get them to stop.
The scary thing is that someone is going to press that button and cross the roadway when it says walk. They are not going to look and they are going to get slammed into by a biker who may or may not have know they were supposed to stop.
Also, the yellow does not last long enough to get a bike to stop when it is going down the hill.
Life is scary, but we all take our chances.
By going fast during crowded times, bikers now take the chance that they will get a ticket if they run a red light.
Along with some paint, this ticketing and education campaign likely means that if a biker hits someone, the Task Force has helped move much of the liability from the parks dept to the biker. Civil suits suck. ...especially when you are the defendant.
But, you what sucks even more? Criminal suits. In CA, this biker got charged with manslaughter after the pedestrian he hit died:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/crime/2012/06/witness-blames-pace-biker-charged-felony-manslaughter
...such things are far more powerful than a ticket.
What will happen?
My prediction is that by ticketing bikes who don't stop at lights on weekends, the die hard bikers who like to train midday on weekends will either avoid the park, or slow down.
A long yellow at the bottom of the hill would also be good.
BTW, the Parks Alliance is still stating in bright red that pedestrians always have the right of way on its website.
...which I interpret to mean, not just when they have the light and are in a crosswalk, but always:
http://www.prospectpark.org/visit/activities/bicycling
...norms are happening.
The web site you cited is a little out of date with their information as there isn't a "recreation lane" anymore.
• When the Park Drive is closed to motor vehicles, use traffic lanes - the recreation lane is for runners and walkers.
• When the Park Drive is open to motor vehicles, use the right half of the recreation lane.
My beef is with the "salmon". They are a danger to all.
First, you may need to get the Parks Alliance to update their website.
Let me know if they decide to remove the Pedestrians always have the right of way.
Ticketing salmon would be good too. Maybe the police will focus on them next. The police have limited resources, and will never be able to replace the success that we could obtain if we were considerate of other users.
Today's NYT:
Penalty for Rule-Breaking Bicyclists: A Remedial Class
By J. DAVID GOODMAN
The eight wrongdoers sat inside a windowless basement classroom, serving a court-ordered penance for their transgressions. For the next 90 minutes, they would learn about the proper rules of the road, how to use hand signals and when to change lanes safely — even if most did not believe they had done anything wrong.Spencer Aste, left, rode his bike to class, in the basement of a sporting goods store. He said he had been wrongly given a ticket after traffic forced him from the road and into a crosswalk.
“He said I wasn’t in the bike lane,” said Kenny McKissick, a 32-year-old messenger. “But I was on the line.”
This spring, the Midtown Community Court began sentencing cyclists who had been issued tickets for certain offenses in and around Midtown Manhattan to a class to learn about bicycles and traffic.
Think remedial driver’s education — for bike riders.
“You couldn’t possibly ticket all of the stuff you see irresponsible cyclists do,” said Judge Felicia Mennin, who worked with the nonprofit organization Bike New York to develop the new sentencing option.
But, she acknowledged, some riders may be honestly confused about what is allowed. “There are a lot of laws and not always clarity about abiding by the law,” she said.
The class, held below a sports store on the Upper West Side, is the first dedicated to cyclists but is a close cousin to other education programs at the court, which seeks to address quality of life offenses like prostitution and graffiti with alternatives to jail or fines.
It comes amid broad agreement among bike advocates and the Transportation Department that compelling riders to obey traffic signals, go with traffic and stay off the sidewalk is critical to improving the image of cycling and ensuring the long-term health of New York City’s expanding bicycle network. That mission will become even more important once the city’s bike-share program rolls out in the next month or so.
So far, 30 cyclists have been sent to the class, the court said. The two most common offenses have been riding on the sidewalk and not using the bicycle lane.
Mr. McKissick was hardly alone in complaining of unfair treatment at a class last week. Several cyclists admitted riding on the sidewalk for a few feet and complained that the sentence — often a day of community service in addition to the class — was excessive.
“It was literally three seconds,” Steve Galiczynski said of his short sidewalk ride to his parking spot on the Upper West Side, witnessed by a police officer. He said he had already spent a day cleaning up trash in Times Square. “This whole thing is nuts. It’s like I’m in a Russian novel — a crazy Russian novel.”
The class included slide presentations on bicycle law, hand signals and moving safely through traffic, as well as a discussion of cyclists’ rights and how abiding by the law could help them curry good favor from the broader public. Some of the men sat with folded arms; there was palpable resentment after each described the reason for his ticket. It emerged that none were there for what they considered serious offenses, like running a red light or going the wrong way.
“Normally,” said Rich Conroy, the instructor from Bike New York, “red light running is a traffic violation and they send that to the D.M.V. courts.” Wrong-way riding is treated similarly. Mr. Conroy said he would like to see those types of violations end up in his class, but that would mean changing the way the police write up tickets for cyclists.
Since starting the new class, Mr. Conroy has also made shorter presentations to police officers in Midtown to help clarify the finer points of the law. “I focus on the bike lane law because a quarter of the students I’ve seen have gotten tickets for riding outside of the lane,” he said. While cyclists are required to use bike lanes when available, there are exceptions: when preparing to make a turn or the lane is obstructed or unsafe. “There’s nothing in the law that says you have to bike suicidally,” he said.
If there is one thing that unites New Yorkers who see bikes as a menace with others who view them as a mainstream form of urban transportation, it is a mutual disdain for the lawbreaking cyclist.
It has always been thus in the city, at least since the days a century ago when pedestrians, buggy drivers and leisure cyclists alike railed against the dangers of speedy riders, known at the time as scorchers.
Mr. Conroy said he hoped that by spreading knowledge about the law to both cyclists and to the police, he could alleviate what appeared to be confusion over what is permissible and help focus enforcement on dangerous riding.
But for now, it remains a work in progress.
Spencer Aste, 47, an actor who lives on the Upper West Side and rode his bike to the class last week, said he had been cited after being forced off the road by traffic and clattering to the pavement in a crosswalk.
“I’m on my face, bleeding,” he said. “When I got up, the cop was writing me a ticket.”
I have been a cyclist (though NOT a Lance wannabe) and blader in the park for 17 years. At first, I didn't like the idea of crosswalks, but now I'm all for the cops enforcing those crosswalks. I think it does drive home to pedestrians that there are times and places NOT to try to cross the parkway -- which is a good thing from a safety standpoint.
I do think the crosswalk on the west that it is at the bottom of a sustained hill is not particularly well placed -- it's not a natural place to stop on wheels. If I were a pedestrian, especially with kids in tow or in a stroller, I'd want to take extra caution crossing there, even with a "walk" sign, because you know that nine out of ten of the wannabes (or roid-boys) are going to blast right through. Just because you have the right of way, doesn't mean those guys are going to honor it. It's not worth risking injury or worse to make a stand.
I agree with the poster above who refers to the "salmon." I did see a rider stopped by a cop the other night and was glad to see it. There should be NO cyclists or bladers going against traffic in that park, period.
This morning (close to noon), I was blading in the park when I heard those "bup bup" sounds you usually hear from a cop car -- they were exactly the same and as loud But they were coming from a solo Lance wannabe trying to force (scare) his way through on the right of a bunch of law-abiding, recreational cyclists! I tried to catch up with a police car on the other side of the park to alert them to this, but didn't manage. I heard a number of the cyclists talking about how out of line it was. Be on the lookout for this guy.
ringrunner said:
I think this is crazy.Tomorrow the cops will be gone and nobody will stop at the lights. People who only go into the park on weekdays will don't even know that the traffic lights mean anything.
That's not true. I ride in the park on weekday afternoons and I've been warned by a cop about not stopping at the red lights. (I didn't know. I thought the lights were for the cars.)
“It was literally three seconds,” Steve Galiczynski said of his short sidewalk ride to his parking spot on the Upper West Side, witnessed by a police officer. He said he had already spent a day cleaning up trash in Times Square. “This whole thing is nuts. It’s like I’m in a Russian novel — a crazy Russian novel."
Tell me you can't picture this twerp.
Anyhow, since we are sorta talking good use of the police for ticketing purposes, I will give my usual suggestion that a polica car traverse Coney Island Avenue 24 hours a day and ticket double-parked cars. There are plenty of random idiots that basically turn that quite busy stretch into a one-lane road, but the worst are the businesses (car washes, car services, car mechanics and oh so many more) that essentially use that inner lane as part of their "shop". It would be so easy, it would do some good, and it would pay for itself within a few months. In fact, the only reason I can think of that it isn't being done is that these businesses pay some other sort of...fee...for the privilige.
It's funny to me that anyone who is not a cyclist thinks cyclists want to be Lance Armstrong.
Anyone who IS a cyclist (typically) dislikes Lance Armstrong (and calls him a doping cheat).
But what's definitely amusing is that everyone (walkers, runners, rollerbladers, cyclists, stroller pushers, picnic goers, homeless tent dwellers and that wild dog) using the park seems to feel they are entitled to it, and everyone else should move around them. Ahh NYC.
The dog has been caught.
The law is the law and must be respected by all. However, in my days in Brooklyn (and nowadays here in Minnesota) the complaint from certain people is that the law is enforced on a selective basis by the police. This selective enforcement often based on the race/ethnicity and gender of the alleged violator. As usual, the complaint being that if one is a Black or Latino male the cops will enforce it. But if the violator happens to be an attractive White female (esp if she is a blonde) the cops either look away or only give a verbal warning. Several independent news reports confirm these allegations but for some reason the local news media are hesitant to report it on the nightly news. I hope that is not the problem today in Prospect Park.
this is not about racial profiling, it is about low hanging fruit.
prodigalson said:
The law is the law and must be respected by all. However, in my days in Brooklyn (and nowadays here in Minnesota) the complaint from certain people is that the law is enforced on a selective basis by the police. This selective enforcement often based on the race/ethnicity and gender of the alleged violator. As usual, the complaint being that if one is a Black or Latino male the cops will enforce it. But if the violator happens to be an attractive White female (esp if she is a blonde) the cops either look away or only give a verbal warning. Several independent news reports confirm these allegations but for some reason the local news media are hesitant to report it on the nightly news. I hope that is not the problem today in Prospect Park.
Aha. Well, I move out of God's Country over 25 years ago. I guess things have changed there after all. 
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