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I'm not sure I understand why everyone opposed to the project from the on-set will now rejoice at the prospect of nothing happening. Hasn't there already been a huge area cleared for it? So all the Develop Don't Destroy folks would prefer to see that remain vacant than developed? I understand the multitude of problems with the Atlantic Yards, but I'm specifically wondering what will be built where the land has already been cleared?
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I fear a giant parking lot. I hope for a nice flat park.For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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Chekhovian » So all the Develop Don't Destroy folks would prefer to see that remain vacant than developed?
YES!!! Of course I'd rather see that space remain vacant than have multiple skyscapers built there. Why is that even a question? -
Whatever ultimately gets built will be an improvement over a traffic-clogging arena and residential towers. The deal Ratner has allows him to completely ignore New York City zoning regulations--ie, build huge, out-of-scale towers and an arena so close to residences that it would be illegal under New York City law. If the AY boondoggle falls apart, whatever gets built will almost certainly come under local oversight, and will be much more in character with the rest of Prospect Heights. It's heartbreaking to see how much damage Ratner has already done to our neighborhood. But if he is allowed to continue, it will only get much, much worse. The sooner the deal is stopped and reasonable alternatives (such as the UNITY plan) are brought forward, the better.
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I think that it was both a travesty that people were displaced from their homes and it would still be great news to never see a basketball arena and idiotic skyscraper be built on that land. The UNITY project would be a wonderful idea.
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Whatever eventually goes on the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush will probably be big — it's one of the main intersections in Brooklyn, it's not the right spot for a single-family home... or a parking lot...
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Whether or not you have a small fortune to pay for one of these new stadium's over-priced seats, the thought that the government allowing a rich guy to bulldoze down poorer people's homes is wrong. Ratner claims that his project will benefit the public, but how? If Ratner's Atlantic Yards project is ever finished, how many people will be evicted under eminent domain after the project is complete?I blame such comments on beer.
© karlthedruid 2007 -
][quote="Chekhovian"][/quote] wait, you LIKE chekhov?like a smoked meat with an earthy youth overnote
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I like Chekhov and I like aspects of AY. Does no one like the idea of offices moving to the neighborhood or we all prefer the 45 minute subway ride to midtown? I like how one of the champions of the anti-Atlantic Yards is Jonathan Lethem. Read his 'magnum opus' Fortress of Solitude and see how he treats our side of Flatbush. He considers it DMZ and a place for instant 'yoking'. I assume that as along as it maintains the 'scale' of Brooklyn, then it's fine.
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Chekhovian » I like Chekhov and I like aspects of AY. Does no one like the idea of offices moving to the neighborhood or we all prefer the 45 minute subway ride to midtown? I like how one of the champions of the anti-Atlantic Yards is Jonathan Lethem. Read his 'magnum opus' Fortress of Solitude and see how he treats our side of Flatbush. He considers it DMZ and a place for instant 'yoking'. I assume that as along as it maintains the 'scale' of Brooklyn, then it's fine.
Well, keep in mind, Fortress of Solitude is a period peice... I don't think Lethem means to reflect present-day neighborhoods in this book.If you're happy, you're not paying attention.
spurn Productions, Inc. -
Chekhovian » Does no one like the idea of offices moving to the neighborhood or we all prefer the 45 minute subway ride to midtown?
Offices - resident buildings - stores - whatever, let it come naturally and under neighbord and city oversight and regulations. Some major corporation wants to build an office complex at the AY - fine, let's see the plans first, let's see a realistic budget and time frame, do the plans jibe w/ the locals, etc. The same applies to home builders and retail stores, hell even a stadium. What's not cool, never was never will be - is some guy wanting to buy an entire neighborhood, level it, then build sun/sky killing towers that will never be filled and was sure as hell never to be filled w/ 30% poor people. Growth and change is fine but let's keep it organic and civilized. MOD EDIT: Fixed your quote tags -
I don't want to see the project go forward, but the villain here is not Bruce Ratner, who is just a billionaire developer doing what billionaire developers do. The people to blame are Marty Markowitz, who for all his boosterism doesn't have a clue what is good for his borough, and ACORN's head bafoon Bertha Lewis, who embraced Ratner's promise of affordable housing (without bothering to parse out what that acutally meant) out of sheer contempt for white gentrifiers. These are the community "leaders" who gave the project credibility, even as our real political leaders, like Letitia James, were prevented from having any influence. Propose something sensible, put it through ULURP, and take the time to hear the community out. In the meantime, send Big Bertha and Fat Marty down to Coney Island for the hot dog-eating contest, where their only real talents will finally be put to use.
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I am all for the stadium, not because the Nets woud move there but hopefully there'd be some good rock concerts.Walking on the beaches looking at the peaches.
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YankeeFan » [quote="Chekhovian"]So all the Develop Don't Destroy folks would prefer to see that remain vacant than developed?
YES!!! Of course I'd rather see that space remain vacant than have multiple skyscapers built there. Why is that even a question?[/quote] Have you seen that shithole? You're saying you'd rather live by that than a Gehry structure? And others with real economic value? Do you know how Gehry buildings are regarded world wide? And what they do for local property values, and for that matter the local economy? Oh right, I'm sorry, local people who have lived here forever wouldn't be able to afford to live there. Much better for everyone that it remains a trash strewn lot. HOT BIRD!giggity giggity -
BiffAckley » In the meantime, send Big Bertha and Fat Marty down to Coney Island for the hot dog-eating contest, where their only real talents will finally be put to use.
Sorry thats another one the Nimbys ran turned into a shitshow that wont go anywhere for years. Next up at coney island... another trash strewn lot! Nevermind that once vhome alues depressed in the downturn a lot of middle income folks could have benefted fromt he Atlantic Yards. Enjoy the trash strewn lot!giggity giggity -
Lo Kee » Sorry thats another one's the Nimbys road ditched. Next up... another trash strewn lot! Nevermind that once values depressed in the downturn a lot of middle income folks could have benefted! Enjoy the trash strewn lot!
Trashy lot, maybe so but I'd rather see Ratner fail and another respectable developer come along and do it right for once. You really want to live near a stadium? You think it's bad now, wait until that train wreck opens up. -
RIP Atlantic Yards..The What
Someday this war is gonna end... -
Hah, was wondering when The What would make his way to these boards. Welcome.i extend my battery life by turning down the brightness
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jeffrey » Hah, was wondering when The What would make his way to these boards. Welcome.
Been lurking for a long time. Why do people here complain so much? javascript:emoticon(':roll:') Damn it's Brooklyn!The What
Someday this war is gonna end... -
I'm supposed to be commuting 45 minutes to work in Midtown every day?! what am i doing in my office in Bed-Stuy right now? i must be laaaaate..... how many "good" arena rock shows are there anymore? that's not worth putting an arena around the corner for. I'll gladly go to MSG or drive to the Meadowlands, PNC, Nassau, whatever.
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BoogieKnight » [quote="Chekhovian"]Does no one like the idea of offices moving to the neighborhood or we all prefer the 45 minute subway ride to midtown?
Offices - resident buildings - stores - whatever, let it come naturally and under neighbord and city oversight and regulations. MOD EDIT: Fixed your quote tags[/quote] Umm... that area has been a giant hole for the past 100 years. Do you really think some magic hippy billionaire is going to come and create your vision of urban utopia? REALLY? SERIOUSLY!?! -
Yeah you're right. We should just succumb to the first unqualified pinhead billionaire to offer to come and create an urban utopia as totally sweet as the atlantic mall is. This project is the child of cynicism and non-creativity and will put something ridiculous on a site that has been partly hole, partly great community. Better to just put something sweet on that hole, and leave the community in peace. Plus pro basketball is totally weak. Not to mention, watch this:
"I'll gladly go to MSG or drive to the Meadowlands, PNC, Nassau, whatever"
add Prospect Heights to that list...shutter. Those areas are crap city. -
perplexed » [quote="Lo Kee"] Sorry thats another one's the Nimbys road ditched. Next up... another trash strewn lot! Nevermind that once values depressed in the downturn a lot of middle income folks could have benefted! Enjoy the trash strewn lot!
Trashy lot, maybe so but I'd rather see Ratner fail and another respectable developer come along and do it right for once. You really want to live near a stadium? You think it's bad now, wait until that train wreck opens up.[/quote] I don't "think anything is bad now". If you don't like density MOVE TO THE MIDWEST. They got plenty of wide-open people-free land out there. If you like your ridic high rent because housing demand conitnues to outstip supply in a city where the populaiotn is only going to increase, oppose every development.giggity giggity -
championing every development is as silly as opposing every development. this was a boondoggle from the start. no competition, huge state $ gift, no realistic plans for new demand on sewer, schools, transit, etc. plus, stadiums stink. even wrigleyville in chicago is a hole compared to similar neighborhoods w/o stadiums, and i'd be surprised if there's a better stadium neighborhood in the country.Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit
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i love wrigleyville! man we just cant see eye to eye. I saw some of the best shows of my life at the metro.giggity giggity
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wrigleyville is an awful place to live, thanks to the traffic gridlock, drunken meatheads hollering, and fratboys peeing on your front yard/steps/planters/religious statues/slow moving pets. but if you like these things, you would like living in wrigleyville and might consider moving there. i would prefer that the place i live not be transformed into that.Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit
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Lo Kee » [quote="perplexed"][quote="Lo Kee"] Sorry thats another one's the Nimbys road ditched. Next up... another trash strewn lot! Nevermind that once values depressed in the downturn a lot of middle income folks could have benefted! Enjoy the trash strewn lot!
Trashy lot, maybe so but I'd rather see Ratner fail and another respectable developer come along and do it right for once. You really want to live near a stadium? You think it's bad now, wait until that train wreck opens up.[/quote] I don't "think anything is bad now". If you don't like density MOVE TO THE MIDWEST. They got plenty of wide-open people-free land out there. If you like your ridic high rent because housing demand conitnues to outstip supply in a city where the populaiotn is only going to increase, oppose every development.[/quote] I'm moved to this part of Brooklyn because of it's scale and current density, which apparently has been this way for many years. I don't want Manhattan, and it's ridiculously un-regulated over-development. You can continue to be part of the problem but hopefully will eventually realize what a mistake this development and any development of this scale is. -
The tracks area should be left as it is; the view from the bridge is nice. The stuff that still stands should be reoccupied. Anything cleared after 2006 should be consolidated into a new Wegmans.
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"As such, Ratner’s side was hailing the ruling as evidence that the developer of the $950-million basketball arena at the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush avenues could go ahead with an estimated $800 million in tax-free financing." (The above quote comes from an Oct. 22 article in The Brooklyn Paper: http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/31/42/31_42_sp_yards_bailout.html But the joke may be on Ratner -- not to mention city and state officials who blew taxpayer money fighting for him -- because the developer still needs investors to back the $800 million in bonds the federal government just cleared. The Nets were a hard sell before the economy nose-dived, and it's writhing on the table right now. In fact, Warren Buffett seems to be the only guy in the game these days, and he didn't get to the top of the mountain for no reason. Buffett and others like him aren't dumb; they know the Nets suck.Mybarbaricyawp.tumblr.com
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I love Fortress of Solitude. but it's a fictional period piece and Letham is one of the biggest Brooklyn supporters in the world. Have you seen/read his Brooklyn Photo book? His essays in the subway short stories? Great stuff and completely full of a love for this borough. Back in the 70s when the book takes place? Maybe parts of it weren't amazing for a white high school kid. That's a bit different than him thinking it's ok for skyscrapers and stadiums to be in the middle of small-scale and mostly residential areas.
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My guess is the Atlantic Yards site is not much different now than it was during the period FoS is set. The scenes on the PH side of Flatbush are not very flattering. ANY development would be an improvement over what he describes in this 'period' piece.
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The Atlantic Yards site is vastly different than in the FoS period. First, the Wonder Bread factory was still in operation into the 80's. Secondly, the Underberg Building was still standing, open and generating a tremendous business. The smaller three story townhouses that ring the northern side of the site were not yet constructed and there were several brownstone blocks there instead which included great houses like the South Portland Tennis Club. Where Atlantic Terminal now stands was the remnants of the meat markets. They operated at least through the late seventies, with trucks moving fresh cuts of meat in the evenings and night. Most of Atlantic Avenue was gas stations, car repair places, dealerships, and other types of warehouses. The Daily News had a printing plant on Dean (Pacific?) and of course, the MTA was actually using the Atlantic Yards for train storage overnight, so there were trains pulling in starting around 7-8pm and continuing until close to midnight. The area was an industrial/manufacturing area, and was used as such, although there were homes that were within a stones throw of all of these places. Now, all the businesses that were there, that actually employed Brooklynites in reasonable paying jobs have moved to Jersey, Westchester, Queens, or disappeared completely oversees.
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The Atlantic Yards site is vastly different than in the FoS period. First, the Wonder Bread factory was still in operation into the 80's. Secondly, the Underberg Building was still standing, open and generating a tremendous business. The smaller three story townhouses that ring the northern side of the site were not yet constructed and there were several brownstone blocks there instead which included great houses like the South Portland Tennis Club. Where Atlantic Terminal now stands was the remnants of the meat markets. They operated at least through the late seventies, with trucks moving fresh cuts of meat in the evenings and night. Most of Atlantic Avenue was gas stations, car repair places, dealerships, and other types of warehouses. The Daily News had a printing plant on Dean (Pacific?) and of course, the MTA was actually using the Atlantic Yards for train storage overnight, so there were trains pulling in starting around 7-8pm and continuing until close to midnight. The area was an industrial/manufacturing area, and was used as such, although there were homes that were within a stones throw of all of these places. Now, all the businesses that were there, that actually employed Brooklynites in reasonable paying jobs have moved to Jersey, Westchester, Queens, or disappeared completely oversees.
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"While current developments suggest that the $3.5 billion Atlantic Yards arena project is in doubt, the mere prospect of a LeBron defection to Brooklyn should ensure that it remains on course for completion." Find here: http://probasketballnews.com/todd_111108.htmlMybarbaricyawp.tumblr.com
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Look, the Nets are a small part of the actual Atl Yards project, should it ever happen. People need to quit looking at AY as the Nets moving to Brooklyn. We're talking about an entire urban center being built around it to keep it from becoming a Nassau, E Rutherford, any Midwest city scenario where the arena acts as a vacuum 3/4 of the year. The surrounding buildings would either a) make it the terrible overdevelopment seemingly everyone opposed to the project expects or b) a uniquely sustained urban center that brings life to a currently vacated space. I wish both sides of the argument would quit putting the Nets front and center of the argument.
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At present, the Nets new arena is the only phase of the project that still seems possible. Developer Bruce Ratner told The New York Times way back in March (!) that the residential complex would be on hold for years. (Daily Heights.com/Atlantic Yards: The Saga Continues)Mybarbaricyawp.tumblr.com
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YankeeFan » YES!!! Of course I'd rather see that space remain vacant than have multiple skyscapers built there. Why is that even a question?
Word. Not to mention the drunken sports fans who don't want to pay to park in the lot stumbling loudly to their cars parked right in front of our buildings. Yeah, I'll take 22 vacant acres over that in a heartbeat. -
sweet tea » wrigleyville is an awful place to live, thanks to the traffic gridlock, drunken meatheads hollering, and fratboys peeing on your front yard/steps/planters/religious statues/slow moving pets.
Precisely what I fear. *snickering at slow-moving pets* -
just building the arena would be the worst outcome. i think people will regret fighting the project if it means leaving the surrounding area blighted for decades.
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People will NEVER regret fighting this scam, no matter what the outcome. Make no mistake.
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what corporations are slated to occupy these towers and at what cost to the taxpayers,thanks to the tax incentives and rent breaks giving to corporations for moving to Brooklyn. All we are going to have is an upswing in asthma.
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But Ratner wants to give Nets tickets to the jobless: http://www.fansforfairplay.com/Mybarbaricyawp.tumblr.com
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according to gothamist/ daily news, the destruction has been halted in the AY fiasco. http://gothamist.com/2008/12/04/work_halts_at_atlantic_yards.php
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So, does this mean that the Carlton Ave. bridge will be closed for the next 25 years?
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no, i'm pretty sure ratner plans on fixing all the stuff he's destroyed before slinking off.
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BKChickie » So, does this mean that the Carlton Ave. bridge will be closed for the next 25 years?
That was one of the first things I wondered too. Nice to know they can screw up roads and make blight where was there was none and then cut and run. -
Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn is dead, says its architect Frank Gehry: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2009/03/24/2009-03-24_atlantic_yards_project_in_brooklyn_is_de.html
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So, what happens to all the empty lots that have already been cleared?
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I want them to be parks. ...please don't let them because parking lotsFor better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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