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So I recently received the notice from the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission that seems to implicate Flatbush and Washington Aves as the Western and Eastern borders of Prospect Heights. The document is entitled: "Proposed Propsect Heights Historic District, Borough of Brooklyn", and was mailed on October 10th, 2008. The second paragraph states: "The progressive transformation of Prospect Heights from farm land started along the east side of Flatbush Avenue in the years following the Civil War and spread south and east to Washington Avenue." I'm sure our friends and moderators (and brokers) who live east of Washington Ave will continue to argue for their inclusion in Prospect Heights instead of Crown Heights regardless what evidence I supply. But I thought this would be interesting info (fuel?) to provide to the community (fire?).
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Well, well . . . more fun. Point of fact: an historic district does not necessarily include ALL of the neighborhood that the district is named for. Indeed many historic districts are mere subsets or the nucleus of the greater neighborhood. (See, e.g., Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Ft. Greene, Clinton Hill, & Bed Stuy all have historic districts that don't include the entirety of the neighborhoods.) Also (and I hate to harp on this) but what are the sources that NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission cite to this purported definition? Just because the flyer is printed with that border definition does not make it so. If the NYCLPC is basing this definition on a misperception, then, well, point not proven.
Silly Billy -
I think that the LPC's boundaries are developed either stylistically or chronologically, and not necessarily politically (in the map sense). I haven't read the designation report, but it probably contains a discussion of the methodology used to formulate the boundaries.
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Subject: Re: Border Wars
madman » So I recently received the notice from the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission that seems to implicate Flatbush and Washington Aves as the Western and Eastern borders of Prospect Heights. The document is entitled: "Proposed Propsect Heights Historic District, Borough of Brooklyn", and was mailed on October 10th, 2008. The second paragraph states: "The progressive transformation of Prospect Heights from farm land started along the east side of Flatbush Avenue in the years following the Civil War and spread south and east to Washington Avenue." I'm sure our friends and moderators (and brokers) who live east of Washington Ave will continue to argue for their inclusion in Prospect Heights instead of Crown Heights regardless what evidence I supply. But I thought this would be interesting info (fuel?) to provide to the community (fire?).
I think the mods are all in agreement that Washington is the border, as are most people who don't have a vested interest. -
Yes, Washington IS the border. It's historically Crown Heights after Washinton. But the brokers have PH all the way to Franklin these days. They guess you'll never know if your not from NYC. Also NY Times did the neighborhood in the Real Estate Section about 2 years ago with those same borders. Remember, how Williamsburg stopped at the BQE. Ah the good ole days. But who really cares anyway.Studios and Storage for the Music Industry
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the silly part is the notion that neighborhoods magically change at some line people agreed on (or didn't) 100 years ago. i don't care if you want to call my block CH, but it's ridiculous to act as if my block has more in common with one a mile and a half to the southeast than with one 100 yards to the west. i get that realtors are fudging the border, and i understand why. but i don't agree that they're wrong in any meaningful way.Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit
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sweet tea » i get that realtors are fudging the border, and i understand why. but i don't agree that they're wrong in any meaningful way.
I actually disagree with you on this point. people look for, say, an apartment in CH because they think they can't afford PH. but broker websites, craigslist, etc have shifted the border so far east that they end up on troy. which isn't a bad place, per se, but the point is that they are hyperinflating prices of places on, say, franklin or even nostrand, which I'm pretty sure if you talked to folks on the street in those areas, they are certain they live in CH if they've lived there more than a few years. also, a lot of older CH residents or even PH residents - my across the hall neighbor, for instance - identify the border as underhill and say they live in CH. so, while perhaps historically they are wrong, I'm sure the brokers were charging far less for apartments between underhill and washington way back when. and, it's only thanks to the ny times or new york mag that PH has maintained some semblance of border. I'm sure before that coverage, brokers tried to hawk places across flatbush as park slope east or some crap. and shit, franny's didn't start owning their technical location until they were open for awhile. I haven't checked lately but their website used to say park slope and their early press was that they were in park slope, which I definitely held against them. now, since PH is "cool", my recollection of their latest reviews has placed them here. in any case, though the borders may seem arbitrary, I believe broker shifting has an adverse impact on both housing and rental prices, as well as taxation and political representation once their bullshit makes it into common parlance.like a smoked meat with an earthy youth overnote -
I consider the border to be Kingston.
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BiffAckley » I consider the border to be Kingston.
You're tripping."...you can choose the rain....but I choose the sun..." - N. Costa -
sweet tea » i get that realtors are fudging the border, and i understand why. but i don't agree that they're wrong in any meaningful way.
I'm going to disagree, too, but in a different way (I think) than Alafairnadia. When we were looking at apartments, I looked at a listing that was billed as being in PH. Now that I know more, I know that it was actually in CH--in a block I didn't like one bit. Problem was, that listing soured us on the entire neighborhood for a while, until someone pulled us aside, took out a map and said "No, PH is here". Oh. Realtors should call a spade a spade. -
I don't disagree that some Realtors try to stretch the border areas of a "desirable" neighborhood into adjacent areas. I myself observed this in Windsor Terrace when some tried sell the Prospect Park SW area as Park Slope. Notwithstanding, even the defined border of CH notes that it starts at Franklin Ave. So what then is the area between Franklin and Washington (South of Atlantic and North of EP)?? I think, at least up to Classon (from Washington), it is PH. But until I read some historical proof, who knows. Corcoran and their ilk are not the final word on that. In any case, it is interesting to go back to this great Brooklyn Eagle clip from 1889 to show that from the beginning, the borders of PH have been in dispute: http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=QkVHLzE4ODkvMDMvMTcjQXIwMTcxMA==&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom Finally, as for the "who cares" comments, it's kind of like arguing about who's better the 1977 Yankees or the 2000 Yankees . . . it really doesn't matter, but it's fun to think about.Silly Billy
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I used to consider the border to be Franklin, but have since moved it to Ralph Avenue. In due time, Crown Heights shall disappear altogether.
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Everybody east of Washington understands that is Crown Heights. Even the trees understand it. We're going to form our own neighborhood association thank you.
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pet waste » Everybody east of Washington understands that is Crown Heights. Even the trees understand it. We're going to form our own neighborhood association thank you.
Ummmm .... ok chief.Silly Billy -
Jack Krohn » I used to consider the border to be Franklin, but have since moved it to Ralph Avenue. In due time, Crown Heights shall disappear altogether.
If the realty agents had their way, Prospect Heights would extend up to the Van Wyck. -
BKChickie » [quote="sweet tea"]i get that realtors are fudging the border, and i understand why. but i don't agree that they're wrong in any meaningful way.
I'm going to disagree, too, but in a different way (I think) than Alafairnadia. When we were looking at apartments, I looked at a listing that was billed as being in PH. Now that I know more, I know that it was actually in CH--in a block I didn't like one bit. Problem was, that listing soured us on the entire neighborhood for a while, until someone pulled us aside, took out a map and said "No, PH is here". Oh. Realtors should call a spade a spade.[/quote] I think, really, we're saying the same thing, just coming at it from different angles. you were duped by a realtor and saw a place that you didn't love because of the block it was on, and it was probably priced at several hundred, or more, above what everyone else on that block is paying for their apartments. had you thought "well, gee, it seems like a good deal based on what I've seen in terms of PH" you'd have been royally pissed when you found out where you actually were. I mean, I have no idea what my friends on troy are paying for their place. it is spacious and has many bedrooms, etc. but it is also across from the albany houses/projects. every other time I walk there from the bus that runs up st. johns or the train station, there's a cop on every corner and one in the middle of the block. however, my friends think my block is sketchy. then again, they usually drive around so they barely know/interact with the nabe. I'm not sure I'd want to live somewhere where I didn't interact with my neighborhood and neighbors to some degree, or if I'd need to drive to a bar to hang out with my friends. blech.like a smoked meat with an earthy youth overnote -
Ah, Mr. Meat, those nefarious brokers shall have their way. They shall.
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oh, for heaven's sakes. anyone who moves to troy thinking they're next door to vandy is nuts. likewise anyone who moves to a block they're sketched out by because of the name -- there are certainly blocks in PH proper i wouldn't leave my CH block for.Bumping ancient threads with bot-like bullshit
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the worst is when brokers call lefferts garden PH
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Alafairnadia, I was unable to find any articles putting Franny's in Park Slope. And a write-up in the Times placing the pizzeria in PH seems to be the earliest clip. Nevertheless, your comment says a lot about who is and who isn't in on the scam. Take, for example, the recent influx of people to Bushwick -- many of whom were encouraged to move there after seeing the words East Williamsburg on Craigslist. Anything beyond the Grand L-stop is clearly not Williamsburg. The subway maps say Bushwick! But lo and behold, brokers continue to pimp it as the 'Burg. This 3-bedroom apartment is three stops past Grand: http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/905294451.html The Times places a new pizzeria not far from the apartment in Bushwick. What really puzzles me, however, is that my Street Smart Map of Brooklyn shows the Myrtle-Wyckoff stop as the dividing line between E. Williamsburg and Bushwick; that's four stops past Grand. As someone earlier wrote, "Remember when Williamsburg ended at the BQE."Mybarbaricyawp.tumblr.com
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the maps at the subway stations put prospect heights from franklin on. when i get off the train at park and franklin the map says "prospect heights" in huge letters over top my apartment building.
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why cant people just be happy to live in crown heights?
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Santa » why cant people just be happy to live in crown heights?
Exactly! Why can't you just be proud of living on a nice block--where ever that nice block happens to be? -
oh i certainly am!! i just was surprised when i came to this message board to learn that it wasn't franklin since all the maps i had seen in the city had it as such.
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xlizellx » the maps at the subway stations put prospect heights from franklin on. when i get off the train at park and franklin the map says "prospect heights" in huge letters over top my apartment building.
i wouldn't really use those as points of reference for neighborhood boundaries. mta clearly ain't the brightest of folk in town "the radio makes hideous sounds"
-bob dylan -
xlizellx » oh i certainly am!! i just was surprised when i came to this message board to learn that it wasn't franklin since all the maps i had seen in the city had it as such.
Sorry, upon rereading my post, I should have used "someone" instead of "you". I wasn't directing my comment to you specifically. But I'm glad that you're happy where you're living. -
I think Washington should really be, and is probably going to become, the middle of an area rather than a borderline. Give it a few years.
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Something I find confusing... Kings Pharmacy is on the East side of Flatbush and has Park Slope somewhere in the name. WaMu on the West side of Flatbush says it's the Prospect Heights location.
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I wanna know, why do you drive on a parkway and park in a driveway? I really wanna know!
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