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I asked a construction worker if the new arena is supposed to look old and rusted. He smiled and laughed and said sarcastically, "It's pre-weathered!" Hahaha. What a mess.
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It is a hideous blight and looks like a rusty pimple. I simply do not understand how any official with sway over this project could have allowed Ratner's aesthetics -- which the shopping centers next door prove leave much to be desired -- to go unchecked on such an important project.
Proud to be a naturalized citizen of the greatest city on earth. -
It's Corten steel. What makes you think he was being sarcastic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel
There's no accounting for taste, I suppose. I happen to like it, and I'm glad no "official" has a say in anyone's aesthetics outside of a historic district.
"Official" aesthetics, now that would be something. Shudder.
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Aloha stadium in Hawaii is built from the same "rust as patina" concept
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
as per wikipedia:
"The former Omni Coliseum, built in 1972 in Atlanta, Georgia, never stopped rusting, and eventually large holes appeared in the structure. This was a major factor in the decision to demolish it just 25 years after construction. Weathering steel's normal surface weathering can also lead to rust stains on nearby surfaces."
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Also as per Wikipedia:
"This problem has been reduced in newer formulations of weathering steel. "
Nice job with the selective quoting.
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This states Aloha Stadium was built in 1975.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Stadium
One council member has said that if immediate repairs are not made within the next seven years, then the stadium will probably have to be demolished due to safety concerns. In May 2007, the state alloted $12.4 million to be used towards removing corrosion and rust from the structure.
Whynot_31 states 4 related facts:
-2007 minus 1975 = 32 years
-he has immediate family in Hawaii, who he visits pretty often.
-It reportedly never has to be painted, despite the salt air. Not much that is made of steel, painted or not, lasts long in HI.
- The flea markets held in the stadium parking lot are pretty cool.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Iron oxide is the most naturally-occurring form of iron, which is in turn the most plentiful element of which the Earth is comprised.
Give it some respect.
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Madison Sq Garden is often torn down, moved and/or renovated.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Square_Garden
Is Barclays planning for obsolescence in 40 years? Is this a bad thing?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
It was originally supposed to be clad with a polished steel surface, but that company went out of business and so we're left with some crap that it looks like a three-year old designed with the leftover crayons after everyone else got first dibs.
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I am a firm believer in the adage: If you didn't pay for it, you have no right to complain about it.
News flash: We paid for it.
Therefore, we have every right to dislike it. Over the life of this arena, we have every right to measure actual accomplishments to promises.
....But at some point, we need to focus on making sure that public money is spent well in the future. We must do this while using the knowledge gained from the past.
In the past, snake oil salesman had to always be on the move to find people who weren't wise to their scam. Have times changed?
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Also as per Wikipedia:
"This problem has been reduced in newer formulations of weathering steel. "
Nice job with the selective quoting.
reduced is not the same as removed. additionally, the term is very subjective! Reduced by how much? 1%? 10%? 80%?
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LETS GO NETS!
Why attack God? He may be as miserable as we are.
- Erik Satie -
LET'S GO ... out of town on game nights. I gotta say that men's pro basketball is the most boring thing on earth. I mean, c'mon. "Hi, I'm 6'8" and I can dunk the ball, dunk the ball, dunk the ball. I can travel. I can carry the ball. Watch me!" Snore.
I always thought the Atlantic Yards area would be a great spot to build an interboro intramural type of rec & parks center where amateurs could compete in track & field, gymnastics, swimming, handball, jump-rope ...
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You might be able to convince the arena to allow high schools and other low paying "community access" if you are lucky, and it gets them good press.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I always thought that the whole Atlantic Yards project should be made into a community complex, with fields, a park, appropriately low-height buildings providing indoor meeting space and a gym.....perhaps a school building there and some other community services.....
Bloomberg spends so much city money on improving public spaces for bikers and park-goers....it would have been nice to see this space utilized appropriately for the benefit of the community....and not just one private developer.
Proud to be a naturalized citizen of the greatest city on earth. -
GoodProspect - are you not aware of the proximity of Prospect Park and Fort Greene Park to the space now occupied by Barclays Center? I get that there's something unfair about Ratner using city funding for the building, but it's going to generate tons of revenue for him AND the city, whereas a park? Who pays for that? How does that drive revenue?
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in fact, one of the benefits touted by Forest City Ratner would be that the arena would host "community events". soon we'll get to see what that actually means.
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also, Chekhovian, one of Forest City Ratner's own analysts, before being hired by Forest City Ratner, concluded that arenas are a net loss financially.
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Most arenas aren't used as frequently as Barclays Center will be used. Please walk down Flatbush or Vanderbilt and tell me that the arena hasn't sparked some "community" services. Count the number of empty storefronts now. I'm sorry, but the arena is a big gain for the surrounding neighborhoods, at least those East of the arena.
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threecee said:
in fact, one of the benefits touted by Forest City Ratner would be that the arena would host "community events". soon we'll get to see what that actually means.Without substantial pressure, I fear it will be a broken promise.
People and organizations rarely do things that cost them money unless they have to.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Jump rope totally trumps the NBA.
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Chekhovian: i'd argue that "community services" were already coming to the neighborhood before Atlantic Yards. And the new "community services" that are being sparked by the arena will primarily be targeting arena patrons, which aren't necessarily the the services that the local community wants or needs.
I'd say the big gain will be to commercial real estate owners who are able to capture some of the $$ that arena patrons don't spend inside the arena. As for the local residents, our "gain" will be increased traffic, noise, litter, etc, etc, as well as more sports bars and athletic gear stores.
Lastly, it's not like it had to be Atlantic Yards and an arena. This costs us the opportunity of doing anything else at the site for decades, as well as the subsidies spent on the arena and whatever "affordable" housing that may or may not get built. i think we could have gotten a much better bang for our buck than this. (doesn't it seem unfair that billionaires are getting 100s of millions of our tax money to build an arena? and they get to pocket the naming rights money for "our" arena?)
whynot: completely agree. we're trying as best we can to keep the pressure up, and we can use all of the help we can get.
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As for the local residents, our "gain" will be increased traffic, noise, litter, etc, etc, as well as more sports bars and athletic gear stores.
Right, because Chuko, R&D, Branded, The Vanderbilt, Ample Hills, Inaka, etc. all seem like sports bars.
By my count, Triangle Sports closing means -1 for athletic gear stores. Modell's has always been there. And the Triangle Sports guys seemed pretty happy about Barclays whenever I went in there (probably b/c they're selling for a huge profit). In any event, it's just not realistic for anything but a huge realty company but Ratner to do something with that site. I'm getting tired of all the anti-Barclays rants and when people say "Oh, just build a park for everybdoy" it seems very naive.
It's the same hollow cries as the people who rallied against an "urban club" on Flatbush. Guess what? Brooklyn will always be urban.
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Are you arguing that Chuko, R&D, Branded, The Vanderbilt, Ample Hills, Inaka chose to locate here because of Atlantic Yards? I doubt it. Sure, some businesses are locating here because of Atlantic Yards, but clearly the trend of new businesses/residents moving in was well underway before Atlantic Yards.
I never said that business wouldn't be happy about arena patrons. I was talking about the people who live here and will have to deal with the influx of thousands of people on more than 220+ nights a year.
Also, proving my point indirectly with Triangle Sports, commercial property owners are probably going to be happy about any development that brings them more potential customers and/or increases their property value or what they can charge in rent.
And, I'll bet any amount of money that the number of athletic gear stores within 5 blocks of the arena will increase within 1 year. I have nothing against sports gear stores and sports bars generally. But considering that there are 20+ liquor license applications for the immediate neighborhood, I'm definitely concerned about quality of life here.
As for what could or could not have been done with the site, who said that it had to be one developer for the entire 22 acres? Why was Ratner's proposal the only proposal even considered? I never said that it should be a "park for everybody" but there are alternatives.
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http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/barclays_center_makes_it_official_Y7eGSDFyILGjpm3lrE8UMK
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I'm arguing that Barclays hasn't put an end to all the momentum on Vanderbilt and, if anything, it has probably attracted a lot of businesses (yes, many who want to sell liquor) to the area. Brooklyn is an urban center, so that is better news than dormant real estate.
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Chekhovian said:
I'm arguing that Barclays hasn't put an end to all the momentum on Vanderbilt and, if anything, it has probably attracted a lot of businesses (yes, many who want to sell liquor) to the area. Brooklyn is an urban center, so that is better news than dormant real estate.no, Barclays hasn't stopped the momentum, and yes, has probably contributed to it, and definitely has skewed the direction of the momentum. but that's not my point, and i don't think that's what i said.
yes, some business is probably better than no business, but i would argue that it really depends on the business, how it operates, how it changes the hood, etc. not saying that Barclays won't have some positives in some respects, but i think it will be a negative influence on quality of life, traffic, congestion, tax revenue vs. other alternatives.
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I wasn't as bothered by the stadium idea at that site as many people were, but this stadium looks hideous and is an insult to the community that paid for it.
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kick people out because of blight and then build a blighted stadium... go figure.
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"Do Basketball Arenas Spur Economic Development?"
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That seems like an article based on a very broad report, one that doesn't address any of the specifics of the Brooklyn arena. However, it does state:
"The study also found positive impacts for arenas built in "basketball-only cities during 1995–2009," but there was no impact for cities which are home to multiple sports."
Given that there is no other sports franchise in Brooklyn, then I think that means the Barclays Center would have positive impacts.
Some of the lines make no sense taken out of context:
"The cities with the newest arenas took the biggest economic hit — a "decline in per capita income of about $2,430, a larger decline than in any other period, according to the study." Alarmingly, the magnitudes of the income declines in this study "are generally larger than what has previously been observed," the study finds."
You should ask Richard Florida to clarify that. We're all going to lose that much in taxes for the arena? I doubt it.
The sentence that might support your argument the best is that arenas are complements to growing urban areas and they are not the cause but the effect of such urban development. Well, going back to what I've seen on Vanderbilt, I'd argue the opposite in this case because there has been such rapid growth recently.
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yeah, i found some of this article confusing, too, and i could use some clarification. and, i agree that i think barclays is more about the effect rather than the cause, because:
- chuck ratner described the site as "a great piece of real estate" which definitely under cuts their "blight" claim. it's a great location, well served by mass transit, close to lower manhattan, and until about 10 years ago, relatively inexpensive compared to areas west.
- many reports (even some of ratner's own studies) state the area was already gentrifying rapidly before atlantic yards was announced.
i don't think too much of the recent activity on vanderbilt can be attributed to the arena. i think it's more about the gradual improvement of the economy and location, location, location: it's a great piece of real estate, barclays or no barclays.
ratner got a great deal on 22 acres in the middle of rapidly gentrifying central brooklyn, that just happens to be adjacent to his other properties, along with direct subsidies, tax abatements and very generous loan terms. will it be a net positive financially for the city and state? we first have to recoup all of the tax breaks, subsidies and give-aways before we get out of the red, and we don't get much (any?) of the profits or sponsorship deals. oh, and we also have to pay for the increased loads on our infrastructure and services. i think we (the tax payers) got suckered.
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Yes, Double Dutch does trump the NBA, lol. Thx for making me laugh, el cid.
But seriously ... from a competition at the Apollo:
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See what I mean ... there are ways to develop Brooklyn that don't have to do with an ugly arena. Just sayin' ...
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Y'know, there weren't empty storefronts on Vandy before the last few years, there was a hardware store, some hair salons, flower shops, bodegas, and laundromats. fyi.
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The hardware store was where Vanderbilt restaurant is now. The hardware store was lousy, and went under.
A fish store was replaced by a coffee/bakery as the neighborhood changed demographics.
The Haitian Times left after many of the areas Haitians left, and it suffered due to that whole new fangled fascination with the Internet.
Ah, per-2005, back when no one thought the arena would really happen.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I always figured Daffodil Hardware was a front. Everything on the shelves was really dusty. I would get keys copied anyway. How far back are we going, because there were tons of empty stores in relatively recent history.
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Yes, and to credit (or blame) the changes on the arena seems silly.
Such confusion happens after most large developments, and public works projects.
For example, the olympics will likely be blamed or credited for everything that happens in London over the next 4 years. It is all a matter of the agenda of the speaker.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Seems to me that about three-four years ago, long-time businesses on Vanderbilt were pushed out as rents were raised exponentially. That accounts for a transition time which included empty storefronts. Remember the Jamaican patty shop? Chinese take-out?
And the folks who would've rented in Manhattan moved to Brooklyn when the recession hit in 2008. Prospect Heights rents probably looked much more affordable.
The city is always changing, but I have to say I liked our neighborhood a lot more ten or twenty years ago than I do now. I guess that's a feature of gentrification as well. Someone else said the same thing when I moved here.
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QueenJ said,
The city is always changing, but I have to say I liked our neighborhood a lot more ten or twenty years ago than I do now. I guess that's a feature of gentrification as well. Someone else said the same thing when I moved here.
Very astute observation!
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A NY Mag writer takes the perspective that all of this controversy will be forgotten in a few years, and that the ends justifies the means:
http://nymag.com/news/features/ratner-barclays-center-2012-8/
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I read the article, and noticed that no local residents were interviewed. Looks like they will be booking the arena for many more things than basketball. The writer also emphasized that there will be suites that do not look out on the arena, and they cost over $500,000 a year to rent.
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The writer is a local resident.
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Here's some more cannon fodder for those opposed to the arena:
This article focuses primarily on the drip that may occur from the rusted material. I'm surprised the NYT didn't mention the above-referenced Aloha Stadium in Hawaii which is built with the same material.
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Actually, this is good news. The rusty drip will last forever, thus giving Norman Oder material to continue writing about AY for the next four decades. I have no doubt that he will spend his days hanging out at the arena, slowly circling it and taking photographs of every single splotch and then writing 10,000 words about each one.
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Jack Krohn said:
Actually, this is good news. The rusty drip will last forever, thus giving Norman Oder material to continue writing about AY for the next four decades. I have no doubt that he will spend his days hanging out at the arena, slowly circling it and taking photographs of every single splotch and then writing 10,000 words about each one.
i'm thankful for the dedication of Norman Oder. without him, the most we'd know about Atlantic Yards would come from hard-hitting exposes, such as this NYT waste of space about the surface of the arena.
i believe history will judge Norman favorably; the nyt, not so much.
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Threecee is right. For starters, in an era when traditional local investigative journalism is basically dying, the community is fortunate to have someone who is actually doing what local papers would have done in the past.
(At least for now, The New York Times can still afford to do some good local investigative work, but they can't afford to cross their real estate partner Mr. Ratner. As print dollars dry up, renting out floors in their new building is the one guaranteed revenue source they have.)
So Norman fills that gap, with professional standards.
But perhaps more importantly, Norman also writes for other sites and publications that specialize in urban issues and development--taking the lessons learned from AY (how not to do a CBA, for starters) to a much wider audience.
Just one data point re Norman's impact on the larger national conversation about urban development: a few months back Malcom Gladwell, not a lightweight, wrote an influential piece about AY and the use of sports franchises to bulldoze sensible development.
In the story, Gladwell said this:
“Even better is the brilliantly obsessive coverage of the Atlantic Yards project at Norman Oder's Atlantic Yards Report, in which every twist and turn in the entire story has been faithfully and astutely chronicled. I could not have written this without Oder's help.”
So the community is lucky to have Norman. But more than that, while we're drowning in traffic and wondering where all the jobs and housing went, our experience as chronicled by Norman will help inform future urban development projects toward wiser solutions for all concerned.
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rogersma » while we're drowning in traffic and wondering where all the jobs and housing went
Are people wondering?
So far, the only people I hear "wondering" about jobs are those concerned with the least qualified New Yorkers.
...the only people I hear "wondering" about genuinely affordable housing are those who seem least aware of how much money it costs to build and maintain housing for the poor.
While such motivations are admirable, why is anyone surprised that Ratner is building as little housing as possible for those who can pay very little?
Why is anyone surprised that those with the least amount of skills will be offered low wage part time jobs, if any at all?
I can't say I look forward to the next publicly subsidized private project. While it is nice to be surrounded by an electorate and politicians who seem to believe that housing should be built for the poor, and that the government should have a role in creating jobs for the least skilled, they don't seem to understand how difficult and expensive those tasks are.
As a result, the public and politicians are are hoodwinked by developers who sell their ideas by telling their audience exactly what they want to hear.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
I do think that people in the community at large had expectations of more benefits. Just for starters look at the workers who quit jobs to take part in the "union apprenticeship program" only to find out that there were no union cards to be had. Or the huge numbers who turned out for the AY employment information sessions only to find out that there's probably more room for advancement at McDonalds. When housing is built, it's going to be pretty clear that the odds on scoring an affordable family-sized apartment are somewhere up in the range of the NY Lotto.
It would be a different story had Bruce Ratner started out by saying, "Well, we're not going to be able to do much affordable housing because there's no money in poor people, and as far as jobs go, it's mostly going to be minimum wage and part-time with no benefits."
But that's not how the narrative began and that's why a good historical record is so important for everyone in the community. Perhaps next time around, activists will be able to tell a more convincing story at the outset.
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