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Daily News » Prospect Heights residents are up in arms over a plan to put two suspension centers for troubled high school students in their neighborhood.As many as 50 students who have been suspended from school are set to report to a Dept. of Education office building on Park Place starting next year.
“They are high school kids and there are no facilities for them in this neighborhood,” said longtime resident Stacey Weinstein. “I would rather not have it here.”
Weinstein scolded teens from an East New York high school that was temporarily located in the building last year for congregating on stoops. Older residents told her they were intimidated by the high school students, and Weinstein said she routinely saw trash cans and garbage strewn about the neighborhood.
“We were relieved that we didn’t have to worry about the students anymore,” said Weinstein. “Now, we’re worried again.”
The proposal calls for two alternative learning centers - one for short-term suspensions and one for long-term suspensions - to set up shop in the building.
Residents and advocates have called the building inadequate because they said the building has no gym, cafeteria or library.
But Education Dept. spokeswoman Magie Feinberg said the building can accomodate the students.
“The location, 355 Park Place, currently is being used as an administrative office for the district, but was (used) for instructional purposes,” said Feinberg., adding the officials would keep a close watch on the teens.
Residents were not appeased.
“This is a recipe for disaster,” said Susan Metz, 68, who lives down the street. “There’s no place for them to go when they leave the building. This is a residential intersection.”
Danae Oratowski, 40, was worried that the older kids would pick on the younger kids.
“This is a neighborhood where a lot of young kids walk home by themselves,” said Oratowski. “It may not be a good combination to have unsupervised teens on the same block with many kids.”
City Councilwoman Letitia James (D-Prospect Heights) said there was spike in crime last year in the neighborhood - from iPod thefts and robberies to drug usewhile students were attending classes in the building - and wants the Dept. of Education to scrap their plan.
“Because of their previous experience, [residents\] have a cause for concern,” said James.
“Since the school closed, the problems have abated.”
Brooklynian » Forum » Prospect Heights »
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For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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above » Residents and advocates have called the building inadequate because they said the building has no gym, cafeteria or library.
Right. Those against the program being in that building are concerned about the WELL BEING OF THE SUSPENDED STUDENTS.[/sarcasm]
Um, I think the public is level headed enough that we won't judge people too harshly for being against a program that serves suspended students.
However, I think we are also smart enough to conclude that the real concern of those opposed is not the welfare of the suspended students, but that of your own family.
Being disingenuous rarely makes things better.
...just a piece of advice.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
My neighbors and I who were interviewed in the article have all been teachers - in pubic schools and high schools - and that experience informs our view that the absence of adequate facilities, particularly gym and outdoor space, was a factor in the behavior we saw when the previous high school was there last year. That behavior included turning over garbage cans, fighting, smoking pot, sitting on stoops. The DOE wasn't able - and didn't seem interested in - addressing this behavior once students left the building. The second time around it's pertinent to raise the issue of whether this facility is even appropriate for a school.
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It is ok to not want this type of facility, and youth engaging in these types of behaviors, near you/us.
The unsavory, antisocial behaviors you describe are inherent in the population being served.
As a result, no one likes these programs, and everyone can find numerous reasons why the site chosen is inadequate. Everyone can think of a site that is "more suitable" in some other neighborhood.
....We'd all like them to be placed in facilities away from us.
Thankfully, the Department of Ed is like private landowners and businesses in that it is not exclusively subject to public opinion when deciding how to use the sites it controls.
Some advice: To experience success, prove that the site violates an existing state or city regulation.
-Do not expect to be able to engage in spot zoning or "creating your own regulations" without people questioning it.
-Do not expect the DOE to excercise anything less than the full rights entitled to it under law, simply because neighbors have conflicting preferences.
-Do not expect the DOE to not excercise it's rights simply because those who share your opinions have training and expertise. Whether you like it or not, that is not the basis for site location.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
whynot_31
above » Residents and advocates have called the building inadequate because they said the building has no gym, cafeteria or library.
Right. Those against the program being in that building are concerned about the WELL BEING OF THE SUSPENDED STUDENTS.[/sarcasm]
Um, I think the public is level headed enough that we won't judge people too harshly for being against a program that serves suspended students.
However, I think we are also smart enough to conclude that the real concern of those opposed is not the welfare of the suspended students, but that of your own family.
And what exactly is the problem with being concerned with my family's welfare, when the city is going to put fifty kids who are too poorly behaved to be in a NYC classroom into a facility around the corner from my home?
No doubt these kids need help, but from the city's record with the last school they put there, and the fact that it does not seem concerned that the facility is not adequate for them still, I have little hope this place will help them.
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As stated above, there is nothing wrong with not wanting these students here. As we all agree, these are among the least desirable of NYC students to have nearby. With the exception of the facilities operated by District 75, a center for suspended students is probably the worst facility to have nearby.
Frankly, no informed parent would want a center for suspended students nearby.
As a result, I believe parents and neighbors have not only the right, but the obligation to search for a valid reason that the suspension center should be located elsewhere.
That said, your reasons should be on legal grounds if you want additional allies, or actually win. If you wish to defeat the DOE, your task is to prove that the proposed site does not meet state regulations, and -therefore- the DOE is not within its rights to place it here.
-This is completely different task than arguing that the suspended students could be better served in some other facility that may (or may not) exist.
-This is a completely different task than creating a standard of adequacy that you know this facility can not meet, and is not met by far too many schools and similar facilities in the city.
Are you asking me to believe that you have chosen this school to be the start of a much needed, citywide campaign to improve school facilities?
...should we expect organizations with a proven track record of trying to improve the education we provide to at-risk NYC students [i.e. Advocates for Children, the United Federation of Teachers, the CSA and/or the Campaign for Fiscal Equity ] to join you in this "No School Suspension Site in Prospect Heights Campaign" as part of their long standing efforts to reform our education system, and better serve NYC's most at-risk students?
We have rules and regulations that decide where DOE facilities can be placed; They determine the rights of students, parents and the DOE. They were decided via an imperfect process, that somewhat resembles sausage being made, just like all laws. This imperfect system is the best we have.
As a result, even though your appeals are based on valid fears, I do not believe they should be given weight. Your concern for the well being of the suspended students (be it genuine or feigned), should not trump the system in place.
Spontaneous views and preferences do not (and should not) trump the existing rules and regulations, and the DOE is likely under no obligation beyond pretending to listen to to them.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
whynot_31 said:
That said, your reasons should be on legal grounds if you want additional allies, or actually win.
That is good advice, as I should have mentioned in my above post.
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I'm glad your group seems open to changing its strategies.
Until you find a way in which the DOE is violating the rights of others, I'm going to keep rooting for the DOE.
....folks who don't see the rationale behind my stance will probably try paint me as being "unpatriotic to Prospect Heights".
We really need a Propect Heights flag. That way, one side can be accused of not waving it enough.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Whynot - I understand where you are coming from but sometimes, at least for me, its personal and a sense of utter frustration with our local government.
Before I decide how bad I feel this is, I need to know from the BOE what type of suspensions will be served there (principal or chancellor)
I am so sick of _________________ (insert any political/social/educational agency) just shoving shit down our throats. Just because there is a law doesn't mean that it works for this community.
We have more social/drug rehab centers here than in any other section of Brooklyn (I know the stat is here on this site somewhere)
We have builders and developers who stamp their feet, lie to us and get their way by using eminent domain
Buildings that have been condemned and owners not doing squat to them are never seized to add a much needed school to this community.
The BOE likes to placate us by holding hearings when their minds and the paperwork are already finalized. At one of the hearings they held during the PS 9 charter school fiasco the BOE or one of their cronies gave as a reason "the community was upset with the behavior and the number of incidents that were caused by the MS'ers" (I am paraphrasing but that was the gist of it). So now you pull a fast one and put even older children into this community who have the potential to cause trouble.How many times are you going to poke your stick at the PH bear and not expect it to bite back.
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The CD 8 profile shows how many social/drug rehab centers, and is often used to make the argument we are over saturated.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/bk8profile.pdf
Much of it stems from the fact that this used to be a largely powerless community, and orgs could get away with placing things here (even ones that did not meet regulations) because there was little political resistance, and no one motivated/skilled enough to research the codes.
I'm all for examining the balance of rights between the DOE and the public. ....its just until those laws and regulations are passed, I tend to think a process that is governed by law is better than one which is driven by who can create the largest petition, and -ahem- "sway" the process.
Wealthy communities often manage to sway things by bribing politicians....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
So how exactly can one register one's protests or look for a legal ground on which to protest? Anyone have any ideas? Because i'd sign up for that bus.
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Advocates for Children regularly wins court battles against the DOE. They are successful (in part) because they are able to argue that the DOE is failing to meet established mandates.
They are also successful (in part) because they are very careful to advocate on behalf of the rights of students and parents across the city, as opposed to a given neighborhood. They carefully pick their battles and have a strategy allows them to build the expertise, patience and funding that is need over the long haul. They know how to go about things in a manner that avoids them appearing as if they are working for their own transient, self interest.
In my experience, organizations that try to advocate on behalf of a given neighborhood (like Community Board 8, or local politicians such as Tish James) experience very limited success. This is in part due to very limited resources, but also not having the expertise and time required to take on powerful, sophisticated opponents such as the DOE.
At best, local community boards and representatives add energy to the more sophisticated efforts of orgs like Advocates for Children. At worst, community boards and local reps over promise results, and lead people to conclude that if this neighborhood battle can not be won, the overall struggle to improve education is hopeless. ....those in charge of the DOE know they can often scare these hapless opponents away.
On the other hand, orgs like Advocates for Children employ Social Workers and Lawyers that consistently hold DOE accountable, year after year.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Whynot, I understand your argument 100 percent, but why isn't it enough to argue that the building which will warehouse (that exactly what's going on, though I don't have a clue what a better alternative would be) these kids lacks adequate facilities?
But I'll be honest: I'm more worried about the effect of this center on the neighborhood, but you're right--complaining about it is very NIMBY.
This is the first that I'm hearing about it, which is my own fault. Is there some kind of CB8 email list I can get on?
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Let's assume that the DOE feels the need to genuinely responds to such concerns, and not merely exert its rights to operate a such a program in that building. (...imagine)
If it was to be honest, the DOE would likely state, "yeah, the site isn't ideal. But it is better than any of the other options we have at the moment".
...and, sadly, they'd be telling the truth.
You see, the DOE (like everyone else) has no idea what to do with this population of youth. They disrupt classes, and commit crimes on school grounds. They cause teachers to quit and/or complain to their unions. They destroy a schools rankings in terms of graduation rates. They tend to come from families that -um- "aren't ideal", and aren't particularly supportive or effective helping the school in turning the youth around.
....nobody wants these youth.
Here's a recent ACLU report on the topic: http://www.nyclu.org/files/publications/Suspension_Report_FINAL_noSpreads.pdf
....the report is long and well written, but here's a few key points: The ACLU believes suspension rarely helps the youth who are suspended and believes thru providing more support services, we'd need to suspend fewer youth.
Guess what, the ACLU is telling the truth too.
However, as you might expect, (just like there are not schools equipped with cafeterias and gyms with principals willing to host youth suspended from nearby schools....) there are not teams of effective special education teachers, nurses and social workers ready to effectively work with youth who are acting in a way that is approaching suspension level.
The combination of scarce resources, mismanagement, self-interest, and seemingly intractable social problems is always fun for everyone...
P.S. I'm told the DOE would like us to stop calling them "School Suspension Sites", and instead refer to them as "Alternate Learning Centers".
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
Meeting to be held soon on this plan:
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
here is a novel idea, why not send these lovely fine upstanding citizens to their own neighborhoods?
Fight white guilt and injustice by smoking tax free guilt free Reservation Smokes or go gamble in a Native Casino.
I like to stick it to The Man, The Man happens to be Liberal in NYC(power Structure). -
I wonder what percentage of suspended students bother to attend their suspension site.
Remember, the Board of Ed doesn't want them either. I can't imagine too many teachers are disappointed that students won't trek to a neighborhood they view as "far away, and boring" like that of Underhill Ave.
These youth are hard to teach. Some of them can be reached....
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
A lot of the kids do attend their suspension sites. They attend because they want to go back to their home schools. They want to go back to their home schools because that is where their friends and teachers are (the people who are often kinder and more reliable than their own families). The kids that get suspended are kids who have poor coping abilities. The kids who won't go to their suspension sites don't go to their home schools, either. But the kids who have the wherewithal to go to school, even if they get suspended soon after, actually want to be there. They just haven't yet learned how to deal with the stresses life has to offer without resorting to violence, paranoia, or antisocial behavior.
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I hope you are right.
Wherever this center ends up being placed, I hope the kids conclude that they would be better off if they refrained from whatever got them suspended, and complete their education.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
If this policy is implemented and enforced, students will no longer be able to suspended for minor offenses.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor. -
jml said:
That is good advice, as I should have mentioned in my above post.This article in today's Patch paints your group's efforts in a much better light.
We expect suspended high school students to come from all around central Brooklyn for periods of 10 to 180 school days when they are excluded from their regular placements because of behavior problems. Despite continued requests for the information, no official DOE communication with the PPUA Block Association, the Education Committee of CB8, the Community Education Council of District 13 nor the office of our city council member, Tish James, has told us how many students.
This comment about the size of the program, and how many are expected to actually show up, makes me believe that those opposed to the center will be viewed as being excessively "vigilant" after the facility actually opens:
Rumor has it that 70 have been assigned and under-the-breath asides slip in that only half of them are expected to show up.
BTW, is it the writer of the article, or one of those opposed to the school that is trying to apply Chomsky?
“Predictable consequences are a good measure of intent," says Noam Chomsky.
For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.
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