Signs & Awnings on Vanderbilt

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Signs & Awnings on Vanderbilt

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Mac1
rookie newb
Joined: May '08
Posts: 34

If Vanderbilt wants to give Smith Street a run for it's money, some of the street's businesses need to step up their games. The block between Park and Prospect, for example, is severely blighted by several craptacular signs and awnings.

First of all, The Met, which has long had an ugly storefront, recently got even worse when the M from MET sign was blown off in the tornado. I noticed yesterday that they've now draped a plastic MET sign down over the old sign, creating a stupid 3D effect. It looks dreadful. Hopefully it's temporary.

And then there's the hair salon on the Southwest corner of Vanderbilt. Since when did hanging a plastic tarp with your establishment's name on it from the metal girders of a former awning count as a ok? This doesn't seem to be temporary because it's been that way for about a year.

And, who can forget, the "Beacon House of Hope" on the Southeast side of Vanderbilt. Not sure what this place does, but for years they've had a fading maroon awning that gives the address as "Vanderbuilt." During the hail storm a few months ago, this awning was completely shredded. Now all that's left is the ravaged frame. Maybe they plan to replace the awning but I haven't seen any sign of it. That corner now looks like a street corner in London, after the Blitz.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
TheBurgerking
getting it
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 227

There should be awning police...

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Jack Krohn
My Baby's Gone Shootin'
Joined: Dec '05
Posts: 1,063

Get a life, guys.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Mac1
rookie newb
Joined: May '08
Posts: 34

You might think I'm being petty, but these are thing that will scare away prospective home buyers and prospective commercial tenants. If you think that's bullshit, then you don't know don't know very much about New York real estate. Why don't you go into a successful businesses like Milk Bar or The Vanderbilt and ask them why they put so much care into design elements? They do it because it matters.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Architecture Biscuit
getting it
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 158

I think you are right that some of the awnings on Vanderbilt are ugly.

I am less sure of your assertion that ugly awnings are scaring away home buyers. Are there a lot of homes in the neighborhood that are unowned and/or unoccupied that I don't know about? And would they be bought/occupied if we beautified the awnings along Vanderbilt?

I am also unsure that the ugly awnings are keeping away commercial tenants. My reasoning is that in the last year or two we have seen these commercial tenants move onto Vanderbilt Ave: Milk Bar, Unnameable Books, Pequena, Maya Taqueria, Eton, Woodwork, Branded Saloon, Polish Bar, and The Vanderbilt. I might be missing a few too, and there is supposed to be a bagel place and an ice cream shop on the way. In short, from a commercial perspective, Vanderbilt Ave seems to be doing pretty good to my eyes.

Still, I do agree to your initial observation that Vanderbilt Avenue has some unattractive signs/awnings. Were you pointing this out to just get it off your chest? Or are you formulating a plan to address the problem?

# Posted 2 yrs ago
xlizellx
rocking it
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,580

Architecture Biscuit wrote:

....and an ice cream shop on the way.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2010/11/ample_hills_cre.php

Wonder what the awning will be....

# Posted 2 yrs ago
friscopete
getting it
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 92

PH is landmarked, you have to get approval for awnings and signs. I'm sure it's a costly and red tape nightmare.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Mac1
rookie newb
Joined: May '08
Posts: 34

Yes, I'm formulating a plan.. My plan is to post this thing on Brooklynian and hopefully embarrass some proprietors into changing their signs and awnings.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Architecture Biscuit
getting it
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 158

In that case you should post pictures of the worst offenders.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Tacamahac
rookie newb
Joined: Sep '05
Posts: 29

Architecture Bscuit speaks for me—I don't see that the remnant cruddiness on Vanderbilt has kept sleeker merchants from moving in. If you presented testimony from Massey Knakal or some other commercial brokers, maybe I'd buy the notion.

The mix of dusty old ripped awnings and smooth, well-designed storefronts is part of what's keeping Vanderbilt from becoming too precious at the moment. Once Vanderbilt looks sleek from Plaza all the way to Atlantic, once Mitchell's and other longtime spots are gone, some home buyers and prospective neighborhood residents will conclude that ProHo is just too fancy for them. (Just as many buyers are not looking at Cobble Hill or Boerum Hill a decade into the glamorising of Smith Street.) That will mark a day when Prospect Heights has jumped the shark.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
onandon
getting it
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 50

I agree that some of the older places are in need of an aesthetic tune up...the block's bodegas are pretty awful looking. I disagree with Tacamahac - no one is saying that these places shouldn't be there, just that they need to take a little better care of themselves. I love having longtime spots on the block, but just because they are old doesn't mean they have to look tattered. It's a bit about pride...when your storefront looks like crap it makes me think that the store owners don't care much about the hood they are in.

T

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

At this point, I think the bodegas mostly serve the late night bar goers and the drivers for Evelyn Car Service.

Cigarettes.... lottery tickets.

If they are lucky, they will also serve some of the folks who build the parking lot for the arena.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
GoodProspect
getting it
Joined: Feb '09
Posts: 184

Does Vanderbilt have a Merchants' Association or is there a Prospect Heights BID? That, I think, would be the place to start for encouraging important but aesthetic improvements.

Proud to be a naturalized citizen of the greatest city on earth.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
krowonhill
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 248

Mac1, I can't help but wondering why you moved to Vanderbilt Ave and not Smith St since the latter seems to meet your needs better. I don't think the owners of the MET or the bodegas are hoping to compete with Smith St.

Very un- "sivilized".

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

If the owners of the Met and the bodega's knew how much money they are missing out on, I bet they would up their game and completely take a page from Smith Street.

....but Vandy gets nicer every year.

Those that don't adapt to the neighborhood's changes are closing up and moving on.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
TheBurgerking
getting it
Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 227

Maybe it's a little right wing of me but I think there should be more laws and regulations in this city against how stores present themselves. The bodegas seem to be the most culpable. On Washington and Franklin some of these shops look like they should be in third world countries. These owners need to be accountable and take more pride in their business and also respect their neighborhood. Just my opinion...

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

I'm not a big fan of a laws and regulations that could lead to subjective enforcement.

As people demand that the stores improve their services and appearance improve, they will.

...perhaps the bodegas continue to be "ugly" because they continue to serve populations that are not accustomed to good service, and hesitate to to demand it?

....perhaps the populations served are also "pretty captive" in that they do not tend to travel to buy their goods?

....Perhaps they not that savvy, or perhaps they are willing to pay for convenience?    Who knows.

As I mention above, when the neighborhood no longer wants them, they will slowly disappear.

Some bodegas have found ways to keep up with neighborhood changes and meet the ever changing desires of their customers.   Here is one:

http://brooklynian.com/forum/prospect-heights/gentrification-photo-exhibit-2

....what I would to happen would be for the Small Business Association (or a similar entity) to be powerful enough to help these businesses obtain loans based on the future income they are likely to earn as a result of investments in their business.

Bodegas in areas with increasing incomes could buy new awnings and refrigerator cases.

Bodega in areas with decreasing incomes could buy cameras and plexiglass.


For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
onandon
getting it
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 50

Vanderbilt Ave does have a neighborhood business association, but I don't think it has very high participation among some of the older establishments - I think it's biggest supporters were the owners of Pieces...now an empty storefront.

This is just a question of curiosity - it doesn't really bother me one way or the other but why does that oil and heating place have a storefront? (Vandy between Park Place and Prospect Place, by Aliseo) I've never seen a human in there...

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

onandon wrote:

This is just a question of curiosity - it doesn't really bother me one way or the other but why does that oil and heating place have a storefront? (Vandy between Park Place and Prospect Place, by Aliseo) I've never seen a human in there...

Seriously.

I'd put the office to my Oil Heat place somewhere really cheap and near where I parked my collection of smelly oil trucks. Foster Avenue comes to mind....

Anyway, in my imagination, I assume the guy who owns the oil company also owns the building and lives upstairs. I don't know why anyone would put such a store front on pretty high rent Vandy.

....I bet it will be filled with business that is more "location based" eventually.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
jmd
getting it
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 50

I am really disgusted by the comments It shows that you haven't been around the neighborhood very long and if you don't know what a store front is BEFORE you criticize, you should check out One day you may need the Beacon of Hope .

If you don't like maybe you should move.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Mac1
rookie newb
Joined: May '08
Posts: 34

Are you kidding me? Have you seen what that place looks like now? It looks like a bombed out building. I'm not saying they should leave. I'm sure they do important work. Unfortunately whatever good work they do is being severely undercut by the way they are presenting themselves to the community.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
nomad
above average
Joined: Jul '06
Posts: 494

Mac1 wrote:

..."Beacon House of Hope".... maroon awning that gives the address as "Vanderbuilt."

To go off on a slight tangent, this has bugged me since I moved to the neighborhood...

# Posted 2 yrs ago
homeowner
mod
Joined: Jan '06
Posts: 3,018

Mac1 wrote:

Are you kidding me? Have you seen what that place looks like now? It looks like a bombed out building. I'm not saying they should leave. I'm sure they do important work. Unfortunately whatever good work they do is being severely undercut by the way they are presenting themselves to the community.

The Beacon of Hope House is a private, non-profit mental health service sponsored by the Catholic Charaties of the Archdiocese of New York and operated under a contract from the New York State Office of Mental Health. The Beacon of Hope House provides rehabililtation and residential services to mentally ill adults in New York City. Facilities are located in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Staten Island. All together the Beacon of Hope House has accommodations for almost 350 people.
The facilities cover the range of care offered under the New York State Community Residence Program System. There are supervised residences in both Staten Island and the Bronx, intensive supportive as well as supportive apartment programs in both Brooklyn and Staten Island. In the Fordham section of the Bronx, there is a special, supervised facility devoted to the deaf mentally ill.

Somehow, I don't think their customers are that concerned about how the building looks.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

So true, homeowner, so true.

As homeowner points out, the program provides mental health services to folks who live in supportive housing. As a result, I predict the space is just a "back office" for the social workers (and other staff) who serve the clients living at nearby Catholic Charity housing programs.  The staff likely meets with the clients at the housing facilities, and then do things like write progress notes and treatment plans in their Vanderbilt office.

The housing facilities are described on page 38 as "DHS Supportive Contracted Housing".

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/bk8profile.pdf

It looks like CD 8 hosts at least 125 such beds.

If my prediction is correct, the clients served by the program are unlikely to ever go to that office at all, much less care that its awning is shreds.

Such agencies are often broke.

Rather than spend money on a new awning, I think I would prefer that they take down the awning entirely.     The money could be much better spent on things like towels or pillows for their clients, or even better salary packages for their staff.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
modsquad2.0
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 197

friscopete wrote:

PH is landmarked, you have to get approval for awnings and signs. I'm sure it's a costly and red tape nightmare.

^^^This. Any attempt to repair or replace an awning that hasn't been vetted by Landmarks will garner a violation against the building. Typically a standard bodega awning is no where near the elitists' idea of these neighborhoods Victorian past. It's not uncommon for awnings to completely disappear or become raggedy ass on bodegas that have been there from day one.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
modsquad2.0
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 197

Also problematic once approval is begged for just for the awning are the over the door AC units that "penetrate" and/or "protrude" beyond the property line and everything else going against the whimsy of the 19th century. All this comes into play when the lowly bodega owner tries to gentrify up.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

ah, the trifecta!

1.  zoning/landmarking,
2.  customers don't demand it
3.  expense.

I ain't got no permission to fix it
I ain't got no need to fix it
I ain't got not money to fix.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
krowonhill
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 248

Socioeconomic Narcissism? Behaving as if no other perspective matters besides that of your own privileged class.

Very un- "sivilized".

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

modsquad2.0 wrote:

Also problematic once approval is begged for just for the awning are the over the door AC units that "penetrate" and/or "protrude" beyond the property line and everything else going against the whimsy of the 19th century. All this comes into play when the lowly bodega owner tries to gentrify up.

yup.   They may also be coming toward the end of their lease, and believe a big rent increase is on the way.

If I was in such a situation, and I was making less money than ever as a result of the neighborhood's change, I would try to gentrify up and make the money needed to stay.

....but I didn't feel I would ever have the resources and permission to compete, I would put no additional money or time into my business.    I would simply let it decay until I had to leave.

Landlords are often aware of these tactics, and tolerate them because they believe the new tenants will likely want to gut rehab the property to meet their needs.

Beacon's situation is a little different, in that it may have a relatively secure source of funding that isn't dependent upon the neighborhoods desires.  [but like the bodegas, they may also have a lease is about to expire and become more expensive]

I bet if someone approached the Beacon Hope House place, they could convince them (or their landlord) that no awning would look better than their present shredded one.

....someone could then pay a metal worker to take what is left of the awning down.

It looks like maybe a $250 job.   Local merchants might even be willing to come up with the $.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Mac1
rookie newb
Joined: May '08
Posts: 34

Well, if this organization's funding comes from the Archdiocese of New York and the New York State Department of Mental Health, I would think they should be able to come up with the money to replace the awning or at least remove the old one. I don't think Landmark status of PH is an issue. Amorina's awning ripped last year and they had it replaced a week or two later.
Any non-profit is largely dependant on the good will and good graces of the community that supports it. It seems to me Beacon would want to make a positive impression on the residents of the neighborhood. Call that narcissism, if you insist.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

hmmm.

You may be surprised to learn how little the Archdiocese and OMH passes out these days.

But that aside, I don't call you a narcissist.    You are allowed to want Vandy to be a good looking street, and I even encourage you take steps to make it so.

Why not politely ask someone at Beacon whether they plan to replace or remove their awning?

....perhaps their landlord would be spurned into having it taken down if s/he became convinced that the thing prevented him from getting as much rent from his tenants than s/he otherwise would.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
modsquad2.0
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 197

Mac1 wrote:

I don't think Landmark status of PH is an issue. Amorina's awning ripped last year and they had it replaced a week or two later.

Consideration of landmark status for Wallabout was only calandered July 27, 2010.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
modsquad2.0
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 197

whynot_31 wrote:

If I was in such a situation, and I was making less money than ever as a result of the neighborhood's change, I would try to gentrify up and make the money needed to stay.

....but I didn't feel I would ever have the resources and permission to compete, I would put no additional money or time into my business. I would simply let it decay until I had to leave.

^^^This is the dilemma. I had a personal experience with a deli in Union Square that was a deli/coffee shop since the 1920's. Up until the renaissance of that area (early 80's?) the place was a typical deli. Everything you forgot to get at a supermarket you could get there. Problem was as rents started to inch toward 200 per foot, selling little friskies, wax paper, and clothes pins could not be justified anymore. You were actually losing money. They not only jettisoned the clothes pins and cat food they lost their dwindling customer base. They successfully jumped into labor intensive prepared food (high profit) and the only thing they sold beyond that where drinks and chips. That worked for more then 15 years until rents went toward 300 per foot. At that point the only way profit can be maximized is in delivery. The remaining successful delis in high rent districts will have 10 or more bikes out front. They couldn't do it for lack of space so they closed. Did I forget to mention the half dozen landmark violations they incurred over the last 10 years trying to draw attention. Typical deli awnings with lights and bright paint jobs. Now it's a Pret. Just a small discreet sign. All Landmark violations have been removed. The original deli had 1 busy cash register, Pret has 7. Care to guess what they gross daily?

20K+

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Karl the Druid
on facebook i am now
Joined: Aug '06
Posts: 1,174

the sign police, they live inside of my head

the sign dream police, they come to me in my bed

the sign dream police, they take my awning from me

oh no

destination: roam

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

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For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
jml
Irregular
Joined: Aug '05
Posts: 204

I'm so happy about this thread. This site was getting so boring lately. Where's RBG when you need her? Or Anonymous Guest??

# Posted 2 yrs ago
Karl the Druid
on facebook i am now
Joined: Aug '06
Posts: 1,174

oh nooooo

destination: roam

# Posted 2 yrs ago
raisedeyebrow
getting it
Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 109

for the record, we moved from smith street to Pro heights because of smith street. we love vandy and hope it doesn't turn into smith. It was too much too soon and all the interestiing places got pushed out. too many things happened all at once and the rents got out of control making merchants with a smaller profit margin close their doors

Have character, don't be a character.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
krowonhill
getting it
Joined: Jul '10
Posts: 248

raisedeyebrow wrote:

we love vandy and hope it doesn't turn into smith. It was too much too soon and all the interestiing places got pushed out.

Pieces' empty storefront is ominous. Sorry to see it go.

Very un- "sivilized".

# Posted 2 yrs ago
jml
Irregular
Joined: Aug '05
Posts: 204

Pieces was great. Never could figure out how they stayed in business though.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
whynot_31
Former Lurker
Joined: Mar '06
Posts: 16,106

xlizellx wrote:

Architecture Biscuit wrote:

....and an ice cream shop on the way.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2010/11/ample_hills_cre.php

Wonder what the awning will be....

Tangentially, today I walked by the new supermarket that is being put up in the former Jewish Hospital ER (just over the border in nearby Crown Heights)

...they already have the awning up! Their awning will look waaay better than the Met's sign on Vandy.

....I wonder when its going to open. Looks like it is going to be big.

For better or worse, the change on Nostrand is going to make the change on Franklin look minor.

# Posted 2 yrs ago
onandon
getting it
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 50

I could just be repeating rumor but I thought Pieces closed because the owners got/are getting divorced? I don't think they went out of business because they didn't sell product. But, I very easily could be wrong on that.

Hopefully the space will be taken over by another cute dress shop - it's the one thing PH is sorely lacking. Maybe I should give the owners of Flirt a call...hmmmmmm....

# Posted 2 yrs ago