http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave en-US Thu, 20 Jun 2013 06:49:00 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://brooklynian.com/forum/search.php http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763774 Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:29:31 +0000 whynot_31 763774@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>I think posters are getting at two things:</p> <p>1. Whether you are a business or a resident, you end up being affected by (and/or furthering) changes in the neighborhood largely against your will, and without your consent.</p> <p>2. People often act in ways to create and further "sameness", whether they realize it or not, and whether they like it or not. </p> <p>1 and 2 seem to bother some people more than others. Some people aren't bothered at all; They just accept them as facts of life. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763765 Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:52:47 +0000 Park Place 763765@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <blockquote><p><cite>homeowner <a href="http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763747">said</a>:</cite><br /> But, its not just that. Its some of the issues that come to mind from the "What should go on Washington Avenue thread". Why does EVERY neighborhood need a bagel shop, a craft beer place, a bookstore, a children's clothing store and no one need a roti shop, a beauty supply store, or a McDonalds. </p> <p>At its core, its because the people who prefer the former don't use the latter. And certainly some of it is racial, but its more than that. Its the people who wish that Franklin looked like Smith Street or Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg, or 5th Avenue in Park Slope, and not from the perspective of every storefront filled, but rather that every place should look like every other place. </p> <p>Its the sense that not being able to afford to live in Park Slope means that you need to remake where you live into a clone of Park Slope (pretty much guaranteeing that you won't be able to afford to live there eventually).</p> <p>And yes, changes in immigration are affecting ethnic enclaves, and changes in economics and globalization are affecting local communities, but underlying all of that is a feeling that I have that the unique nature of neigborhoods and the melding of culture that made NYC such a special place to live and grow up is being replaced by a sense that there is a particular class/cultural outlook that is acceptable and everything else is unimportant or not valid. </p></blockquote> <p>I would want a neighborhood to have all of the things you mentioned and more as those stores seem to fill the needs of so many of the "average" people in terms of the demands they have for goods and service.</p> <p>My favorite stretch of Franklin Avenue, from President Street to Park Place, if I could design it just for me, would have coffee shops (3), places for pizza (2 at a minimum) a food shop with meat and fish, a great pub/restaurant, a place to get great pastrami, 2 bodegas, a clothing store for some basics, a candy store, a bagel shop, a pharmacy, 5 or 6 very diverse restaurants a bookstore that was used books only and a place for ice cream. </p> <p>It is late and I am tired so I wonder what I am missing. As an aside, I would be thrilled if each of these stores was a mom and pop store. I am also thinking that to turn Franklin Avenue into a main drag type of a street lie those in Park Slope would be sad.</p> <p>A 99 cent store would be good because it is so very valuable in so many ways. What did I miss? Ohhhh, 2 or 3 places for breakfast. Nothing fancy or cute; just great eggs and bacon and strong coffee to start off a Saturday.</p> <p>One last thought. I like the occasional Starbucks but I like it in someone else's neighborhood as I pass though, not in my neighborhood.</p> <p>How did I do? Can I come back now? Apartments on Park Place available? </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763762 Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:32:43 +0000 Park Place 763762@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>This is a good discussion. As for what stores open, we have little control but as far as what stores survive, we have a great deal of control. It is the ultimate democracy and it is free of racism as I understand it. Simply stated, we vote with our dollars. Give the store your money and they stay. Do not give the store your money and eventually, they go. </p> <p>As for me, i would never go to a Target if I could go to a mom and pop store for the same things. I would even pay a bit more if i had to but passing up a mom and pop to go to Target makes me cringe.</p> <p>Vote with your dollars and see the results. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763755 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:23:10 +0000 whynot_31 763755@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>Correct.</p> <p>When the masses prefer the homogenous, anything with individuality is at risk.</p> <p>Clayfilms and I had a good discussion on this subject as it related to the threat CT Muffin poses to the Carib Bakeries on Nostrand. It is a pretty good read: <a href="http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/connecticut-muffin-coming-to-nostrand-ave" rel="nofollow">http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/connecticut-muffin-coming-to-nostrand-ave</a> </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763751 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:13:56 +0000 homeowner 763751@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>Absolutely. But part of the big box vs. Mom &amp; Pop debate is about people's willingness to accept diversity in their neighborhoods. If you don't go into a 99 cent store, even though they dominate your neighborhood, and instead trek to Target, what hope is there that you'll see the value in one? If you don't use ethnic haircare products, of course, you'll decry the fact that there are three within 5 blocks of your house, while at the same time not understanding that its almost impossible to find those products in mainstream drug and big box stores. The fact that those stores don't serve you, doesn't mean they don't have the right to exist and to serve others in the community. </p> <p>When economic development occurs around serving the "group-think middle" it doesn't just exclude Mom and Pop stores, it excludes anyone who doesn't service the group. So, even sucessful businesses like Cookies (children's clothing) won't have a place in Brooklyn because they sell inexpensive clothing for the masses and not $40 ironic tees for infants. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763749 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:59:06 +0000 whynot_31 763749@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>What I think she is getting at, is that individuals (and even groups) have very little control over what business open up near them.</p> <p>...The businesses merely open without the "permission" of the residents, with the hopes that people will shop at them.</p> <p>Then, the residents (be them old or new) don't have control of the behaviors of their fellow consumers as to whether they businesses are supported.</p> <p>The only way I could imagine such changes not occurring is via strict zoning and other regulations that prevent demographic changes in the residents, because I believe that once the demographics change, the existing business mix will either quickly adapt or perish. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763748 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:51:34 +0000 whynot_31 763748@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>Mrs. Whynot wrote about that somewhat recently:</p> <p><blockquote>By way of disclosure, I was white and middle class as a child (still am though not a child). I grew up in a neighborhood that was more diverse (racially, economically) than most in NYC - though is not now. My childhood took place in the 1970s.</p> <p>I am all for a diversity of places to shop. I don't have anything against a 99 cent store, but don't desire another one. And largely my wish list of stores mimics the type of places that I remember shopping at as a kid.</p> <p>There was Williams Bar-B-Que chicken, Murray's appetizing shop, Morris Brothers children's clothing store, Rosen Brothers meat store, the Towne Shop (when shopping for clothes with Mom), Party Cake and Lichtmans bakeries, West Side Camera and West Side Judaica. There were a couple of restaurants Chun-Cha-Fu and Taj Mahal are the only ones I can name though there was also a steak shop. There was a Five-and-Dime (Woolworths). There were a couple of bookstores, though the one I went to most was around the corner from the New Yorker Movie theater. A couple of places that I can't name anymore I can still remember the names of the owners/people behind the counter - the pet shop was owned by Tom and later his daughter Kate, the toy store by Jim. And there were a couple of supermarkets - Red Apple, Daitch (sp?) and Key Food and a bank - Dime. There were also a lot of places we did not shop.</p> <p>What strikes me about the list is that I can name places and workers who I haven't seen in decades. It is also diverse (I've not named a single place more than four blocks from the apartment in which I grew up) and did not involve chain stores for the most part. </p> <p>But here is one issue with the list, almost none of the places still exist. They have been replaced by up-scale chains. And truthfully, that neighborhood needs another bank or Banana Republic about as much as Nostrand needs another 99 cent store. (Again just my opinion.)</p> <p>A desire for shopping diversity hits up against two factors that did not exist back in days of my childhood - the big box (Target) and the category killer (Toys-R-Us). I don't know if my parents would have gone to Morris Brothers for my clothing if a Target had existed. And for low-income people, having the choice of lower-cost places to shop, both in the neighborhood and outside of it, is imperative. But for those of us who can afford it, there is a lot to be said for the personal service at Sisters rather than the discount at Lowes. </p> <p>This brings up my question - one that I think is at the heart of <strike>redacted</strike> and many other of the people posting.</p> <p>How do we foster diverse economic development? One glimmer of hope is that the populace at all economic brackets in Brooklyn knows how to eat at non-chain restaurants. How do we similarly encourage shopping for everything else in the same way? And trust me, I don't have the answer to this.<br /> </blockquote></p> <p>P.S. Mrs Whynot is not her actual name. When we got married she kept her last name.... and prefers Ms. </p> <p>She only uses Mrs. Whynot for fun. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763747 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:43:45 +0000 homeowner 763747@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>But, its not just that. Its some of the issues that come to mind from the "What should go on Washington Avenue thread". Why does EVERY neighborhood need a bagel shop, a craft beer place, a bookstore, a children's clothing store and no one need a roti shop, a beauty supply store, or a McDonalds. </p> <p>At its core, its because the people who prefer the former don't use the latter. And certainly some of it is racial, but its more than that. Its the people who wish that Franklin looked like Smith Street or Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg, or 5th Avenue in Park Slope, and not from the perspective of every storefront filled, but rather that every place should look like every other place. </p> <p>Its the sense that not being able to afford to live in Park Slope means that you need to remake where you live into a clone of Park Slope (pretty much guaranteeing that you won't be able to afford to live there eventually).</p> <p>And yes, changes in immigration are affecting ethnic enclaves, and changes in economics and globalization are affecting local communities, but underlying all of that is a feeling that I have that the unique nature of neigborhoods and the melding of culture that made NYC such a special place to live and grow up is being replaced by a sense that there is a particular class/cultural outlook that is acceptable and everything else is unimportant or not valid. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763740 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:07:22 +0000 whynot_31 763740@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>I don't know if you can blame that on the new blood, so much as the economic factors that are causing franchises to thrive, and changes in the nature of immigration.</p> <p>To put it in rural terms: It does seem that throughout the country we are losing the "Small town main street" (urban equivalent: diverse shopping avenue) in favor of far away suburban style malls (urban equiv: Atlantic Center or Gateway Mall).</p> <p>Likewise, as immigration changes from mass events from select countries over a long period of time <strong>TO</strong> a phenomena that is more slow trickles of people from all over the world, the ethnic enclaves also are being affected. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763738 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:49:35 +0000 homeowner 763738@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>One of the things I truly loathe about the new blood coming to New York City is this concept of "when I step out of my door I should have access to x". One of the things that made NY special was that you used to have specific areas of town that were known for specific things. Good chinese food- Chinatown. Department Stores- Midtown. High end- 5th Avenue. West Indian- Crown Heights. It made places that were good, destinations in their own right. It also meant that people who wanted those things went to parts of the city they otherwise would not have ventured into. Now, every neighborhood has to look like every other neighborhood. </p> <p>The homogeny is depressing. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763696 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 00:16:47 +0000 Park Place 763696@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <blockquote><p><cite>mr. met <a href="http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763509">said</a>:</cite><br /> what does Breueklen or Zelda or Pulp and Bean do for the neighborhood that Starbucks wouldn't? </p></blockquote> <p>Reasonable question and I can write about my thoughts on it for days on end but suffice to say that Breueklen or Zelda or Pulp and Bean are owned by small time operators. Families and neighbors and friends who are invested in the neighborhood. </p> <p>Starbucks is monolithic and like Walmart, pushed out the small business people. Small shops, also known as Mom and Pop shops allow folks to work for themselves as opposed to working for a large company. As such, they call the shots, make the decisions and live or die based on their way of making it happen as opposed to being a pawn in a very large organization. </p> <p>If mom and pop shops disappear, we will lose a great deal. Independence, diversity, a bit of the American dream and the wonderful belief that a person with a vision can chart their own course; live their life on their terms. This is a lot to lose. Far more then just a cup of coffee. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763509 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 11:08:34 +0000 mr. met 763509@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <blockquote><p><cite>Park Place <a href="http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763487">said</a>:</cite></p> <p>If I still lived on Franklin Avenue, I would not want a Starbucks. I do not hate them but they do nothing for the neighborhood and if you do nothing for the neighborhood, it is best if you do it elsewhere. </p> <p>(Please, please please, do not tell me they create jobs. Please do not tell me they save wales. Please do not tell me they sell chocolate made of bamboo in rain forests. Please, see then for what they are.) </p></blockquote> <p>what does Breueklen or Zelda or Pulp and Bean do for the neighborhood that Starbucks wouldn't? </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763505 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 00:30:47 +0000 Park Place 763505@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <blockquote><p><cite>ehgee <a href="http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763503">said</a>:</cite><br /> Starbucks provides a valuable place to urinate without spending money. </p></blockquote> <p>Who can argue with that? </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763503 Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:07:30 +0000 ehgee 763503@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>Starbucks provides a valuable place to urinate without spending money. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763487 Tue, 22 Jan 2013 00:50:18 +0000 Park Place 763487@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>Interesting to see the talk of a Starbucks coming.</p> <p>Two things to consider. Firstly, it is a sign that the neighborhood has arrived in a strangely symbolic way. This is both good and bad.</p> <p>Second, Starbucks decides if they want to come but the locals decide if they want to go. They will fund the store for 18 to 30 months as they need stores to lose money for tax purposes but sooner or later, they will close up shop and do what is called a consolidation. Personally, I would go to the mom end pop shops first. </p> <p>If I still lived on Franklin Avenue, I would not want a Starbucks. I do not hate them but they do nothing for the neighborhood and if you do nothing for the neighborhood, it is best if you do it elsewhere. </p> <p>(Please, please please, do not tell me they create jobs. Please do not tell me they save wales. Please do not tell me they sell chocolate made of bamboo in rain forests. Please, see then for what they are.) </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave/page/2#post-763429 Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:48:26 +0000 Epiclylaterd 763429@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>Sorry, but that is not a bagel store. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave#post-763428 Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:44:45 +0000 kenieva 763428@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>What do you mean no bagel store? What about the Bean place? (I forget the exact name now, the one by Bob and Betty's) </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave#post-763426 Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:19:24 +0000 chloeroyale 763426@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>I love Franklin ave I love the idea of another coffe shop opening up on park place it makes for good competition and best for the consumer ! I love that it has a outdoor space maybe they will rent the space for small gatherings </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave#post-763421 Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:50:25 +0000 Epiclylaterd 763421@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>So many coffee shops, not a single bagel store on Franklin b/w eastern and atlantic! Holding out that this will become a reality eventually. </p> http://brooklynian.com/forum/crown-heights-and-prospect-lefferts-gardens/starbucks-on-franklin-ave#post-763420 Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:49:21 +0000 mr. met 763420@http://brooklynian.com/forum/ <p>OMG IF STARBUCKS COMES THE NEIGHBORHOOD WILL LOSE ALL ITS CHARACTER AND CHARMED AND BE RUIIINNNNNNNNNED</p> <p>yawn </p>