[brooklynpotter]

i know we've talked this one to death, but over a lunch filled with with super antsy children at the next table, my friend and i started sharing war stories.

i have to believe that there are other children in other parts of the country who act this way. or, more so, whose parents allow them to act this way. this, i strongly believe, is the problem. if i acted in the manner these children did when i was little, i wouldn't have been taken to restaurants. it was a well-known fact in our family--and all the other families i know--that good manners were required in restaurants and if you didn't have good manners you would be taken to them. so what's the deal? some recent examples, both mine and my friend's.

--sitting in the park enjoying a lovely day and having kids with kites start running by my blanket. one kid dragged his kite across my blanket twice, thwapping me on the face in the process. barely an apology from the moms.

--working a craft fair before the holiday, placing myself in the corner because i knew my things were breakable, and having children running laps through the room, en masse, while their parents just stood there chatting with their friends.

--sitting on the church steps being interviewed, with a microphone so it was obvious, and having two young girls running all around us while the mom stood on the sidewalk talking on her cell-phone. the mom twice asked them in a very measly voice to come down. only they didn't and she kept taking on the phone.

--sitting at the tea lounge, there were two children running by who smashed her lunch onto the floor with their fists. my friend approached the mom, who then told her that she should know better than to leave her lunch on the edge of the table. then refused to buy her a new lunch. she went to talk to the manager, and he wouldn't give her a new lunch either. her lunch was a bagel

--having pizza at an upper scale restaurant over the holidays, my friend watched a child pull down an entire christmas display, wreaths and lights, and when the manager came over the mom look at him and shrugged and said in some snotty voice, something like 'what do you expect me to do about it?'

--eating brunch outdoors in north slope and sitting near a family with children would wouldn't sit in their seat, children who were running around and bothering patrons. the child even KICKED some other patrons, and when my friend approached the mother she got the same response as above. (i will say, however, that once the kid kicked the manager he asked them to leave)

--and i won't even get into our lunch yesterday, where the children at the next table were playing some hand game that involved banging on the table, running around the restaurant, and covering the floor with soggy sugar packets and half their breakfast.


i refuse to believe it's only park slope children, because i know some who are really nice. regardless, why is this acceptable?
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what would you tell me, if i could hear you speaking?--t.r.

[Carnivore]

Cue Kensington Mom to tell you how you'll feel differently once you have kids...
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[brooklynpotter]

carnivore, i wouldn't let my CAT act this way. my cat hates people, and if she acts up when they come over she gets locked away.

plus, how does one justify their child kicking people?
_________________
what would you tell me, if i could hear you speaking?--t.r.

[laura]

[Jamzer]

So tired. So boring. Have we run out of things to talk about?

[Mamacita]

Yeah, thanks for your input "Jamzer."

We'll all treasure it.

[MichaelKeys]

I believe that children act this way everywhere. But I also have my own little theory about this particular misbehavior you write about, based on the children of my friends that fit the profile: they are the offspring of Gen-Xers—of which I am one—who feel their upbringing was too strict and/or repressive and fall victim to “I’m-not-going-to-do-that-to-my-kids” syndrome. People that were raised with proper manners, respect for their elders, and a healthy fear of punishment—corporeal or otherwise—have decided that their children need to be able to “express” themselves in ways they were not allowed to. (There was a reason why WE weren’t allowed to “express” ourselves, damn it! As a matter of fact, I remember as a kid overhearing my parents, uncles and family friends talk about how couples that had misbehaving kids were shunned by other parents and not invited to birthdays and other activities.) I saw it happen to almost all of the children of my contemporaries. My former brother-in-law was a prime example of this approach to parenting. I’d heard his side of the story so I asked his sister—my then wife—about their upbringing and it turns out that their mom was a level-headed disciplinarian and he was a brat (he admits to both counts). So, he decided he was going to let his children have the kind of “freedom” he never had. Great. Of course, because deep down he knows better, he would frequently want to reign in the kids. Often with disastrous results for the children.

I love kids. I hope to have some in the near future. And I will do my utmost to raise them in a loving, nurturing manner that will give them the confidence and self-esteem to face the obstacles they will encounter in life. But trust me, they WILL NOT be acting out in public, unnecessarily bothering other people and getting away with it. I was raised better than that.

PS: Based on your friend’s version of the bagel incident, the Tea Lounge manager was an IDIOT. It was bad business sense at the very least on his/her part. (Although I do hear that the moms “own” the 7th Ave TL during the day.) And any similar establishment that does not call the parent(s) to task and ask them to leave if things have gotten out of hand deserves to be informed of how we feel about it. Or lose our patronage.

PPS: The “wait-til-you-have-your-own-kids” routine is a cop out. Sure, it’s not the same until you’ve lived it yourself, but it also implies that once I have my own I’m going to lose all sense of decorum, respect and tolerance for other people’s space. That’s condescending at best, rather offensive at worst.
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"If Elvis is the King of Rock 'n' Roll, then Chuck Berry must be Master of the Universe."

[Carnivore]

FYI for those who haven't followed the boards for long, my comment was a sarcastic reference to a (formerly) frequent poster who tends to be dismissive about any critique of local permissive parenting habits or entitled parental behavior.

This thread is a classic example:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=679
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[escap]

I 100% agree with bklynpotter's sentiment here. Unfortunately, the only people who act even more rude and inconsiderate than children are adults. It's hard to walk around the city for more than an hour without encountering jaw-dropping disregard for others, be it at movie theaters, checkout lines, the subway, parks, or wherever. And somehow it never fails to shock me, or to piss me off.

[GiGi]

A really smart and informed reply MichaelKeys. Makes complete sense to me. In fact, my brother-in-law gave these very reasons (“I’m-not-going-to-do-that-to-my-kids”) for allowing his own kids to run free and be irreverent. Every time we went to dinner with them I was horrifed. I agree about calling them on it/not frequenting places where the management just ignores rude parents who ruin the experience for others by allowing their kids be inconsiderate. I should include a similar rant about the same people I run into at various restaurants in town who don't want to wait for a table and cut in front of the line to which the management just shrugs and says "what do you want me to do?"

[Drano]

[armchair_warrior]

i behave :p. or a good wacking sounds comes.
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[Rose]

I guess there must be something to this complaint, because I see it all the time, but I just don't seem to run into all these awful children. Maybe because I stay out of the Tea Lounge, because their coffee is bad and their sofas are skeevy. Though I have noticed that if I walk around looking for things to be pissed off about, I will find them.

Interesting theory about Gen-X childraising practices, though I would have thought it applied much more to the Baby Boomers. I guess at 40 I'm on the older end of Gen-X and I did not find my upbringing to be particularly structured or rigid as my parents (and many of my friends' parents) were too busy during the '70s playing "free to be you and me" and "finding themselves" through est or jogging or open marriage to pay all that much attention to what the kids were up to. At least partly in response, I've raised my kids in a fairly structured way, with clearly defined rules and so forth.

[MichaelKeys]

[kensingtonmom]

[apollonia666]

[kensingtonmom]

[jayce]

[Guest]

[gretch]

One time I was walking on the street and a kid playing in front of their apartment suddenly hit me. And said Fack You. He was like, 3 years old. The other kid, apparently an elder brother, was loughing. Walking on your blanket is more acceptable than that. I was so shocked. I feel bad for kids who does not know better than that. Obviously it's their parents' fault that they were growing up like that.

[bklyngirl]

[Mamacita]

What!?! Are you crazy. If someone came up to me, hit me and said Fuck You, I'd say that's way beyond the line. Kid or not. That's bad parenting. I never cursed when I was young, it wasn't allowed. In my teens I finally started, but never in the house. I never hit anyone either.

Sadly, that 3 year old probably learned that behavior by seeing someone do the same. Perhaps domestic violence, perhaps just a bad older brother. Nevertheless, this type of behavior is sign of what's to come. How could a little kid be filled with anger like that?

It's not about the person hit, it's about the child and the parents, in general it's also about our society and what we value. Do we value respect, compassion, kindness? With Bush out there bullying the world, I guess not.

But then, I wasn't there. I can't say what was going through the kids mind....

[Guest]

[MichaelKeys]

[MichaelKeys]

[Drano]

[gretch]

Mamacita, I feel extactly the same way. I am fully aware that kids sometime misbehave, and people should be acceptive and generous, because they are kids, after all. They do not know what is rude or what bothers people until they learned through experience, and by other people like parents. What shocked me was how that 3 years old was using the bad wards, which 3 years old should not even be exposed, which I believe is totally because of the environment that they are in. The baby hit me, and not only the baby but also the elder brother did not even seems like they think it is bad thing to hurt people. Obviously, they were not brought up the way that the do not know that is bad thing. I personally believe that is very important for parents to teach their kids not to hurm others, which I think a very basic rule as a human. Obviously they are not told that. Intorelance to the babies is not an issue here.

[Rose]

I think maybe some people here need to be a little more tolerant of others, but I also think the behavior of the 3-year-old described above is pretty shocking and awful.

[apollonia666]

Just a reminder to all: That link at the top of EVERY page on the site that says "READ THE RULES"? Yeah, try READING THE RULES. Personal attacks = not cool.

Bklyngirl, I'm removing one of your posts for this reason. Please read the PM I've sent you.

Brooklynpotter, I've removed your response to the abovementioned post -- wasn't anything wrong with your post, but it did quote the one I'm removing in its entirety.

[TuckPendleton]

I think everyone on here is reasonable enough to know that kids are going to be kids. Kids run, kids scream, kids knock things over, kids cry, kids are...well, kids.

It really comes back to the parents. PS parents (and this does seem endemic to here, having lived all over NYC) seem determined not to let the fact they have kids get in the way of their lifestyle. These parents find nothing wrong with dragging their kids to a 10pm dinner at crowded, popular restaurant on a Saturday night. Or a late movie, or to a art show, or whatever the inappropriate situation is.

Parenting is putting your children before yourself, something a lot of these PS parents don't seem to get. Obviously, there are those who do this correctly, but it's certainly not the majority...

[apollonia666]

[MichaelKeys]

[stacey]

[armchair_warrior]

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[bklyngirl]

I understand the the PS parent thing is really it's own world - really, i do. And I find it interesting that the debates raging in other gentrifying brooklyn neighborhoods lean toward "old timers vs. newcomers". In PS, it seems - this is only my opinion - to be the childless vs the parents.

That said, I will fully admit I don't understand the whole thing, including the need to place blame. Has no one here ever been so tired or hungry they've cried? Has no one here ever been so angry that they can't find the words to express themselves? Imagine how it is for a child - and I assume you're talking pre-k/elementary age - who don't have those skills at all. And there is a reason for the old saying "if I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times..."

As adults, we are able to throw our temper tantrums at our bosses and spouses and on the internet on chat groups. And for the many of you who said they got smacked - and I count myself in that group - it was because you did something wrong. My guess is if you saw the parent swatting the kid, something would be said about that too. And of course, someone would call the police. Half the time, parents take their kids out to avoid a meltdown - either theirs or the kid's.

Bottom line is that you don't know what anybody's story is. What occurred before you saw the misbehaving child. How bad the parent's day is going. You just don't know, and I think what I really disagree with here is how quick so many people are to place blame and judgement on others.

Yes, some parents are neglectful or just plan bad - they are. But it's unreasonable to expect kids not to be playing in a public park, or to never be aproached or disturbed - by anyone - when you are out.

Yes I'm a parent. No, my kids are older than the ones that bother you. No, I live in a neighborhood adjoining PS, but near enough that I benefit from reading this board. I don't have "help", or a trust fund, or a wealthy spouse or an SUV.

I'm new and somewhat confused about why someone can begin a rant, but others can't offer an opposing viewpoint.

[brooklynpotter]

well, there is opposing viewpoint nd then there is a personal attack. that's the difference.

and you don't seem to be quite understanding what i'm saying, so let me try again: kids get tired, cranky, excited, hyper, antsy, sad, happy. these are all NORMAL things. in fact, grown-ups get this way as well. but as a grown up, if your kid runs over and kicks someone, smashes another person's lunch to the ground, smacks a nice lady in the face twice with their kite, then it is the PARENT'S responsibility to stop the behavior. a: because it's common sense that it's wrong, and b: because the child has disturbed and/or harmed the other person.
_________________
what would you tell me, if i could hear you speaking?--t.r.

[Drano]

[gretch]

I totally agree. I think none of us is blaming kids. People are upset because it is parents' job to stop them and teach them to apologize if they did something wrong. Apparently, people are upset not because kids misbehaved, but because of the absence of the parents who does--or try to do so.

[brooklynpotter]

my brother was one of those kids who ran around like a maniac; my mother put him on a leash. laugh. say it's mean. without that leash he'd likely have run into the street and gotten killed.

and i have to tell you, if a kid kicked me while i was having lunch i don't know that i wouldn't kick him back purely out of sheer instinct
_________________
what would you tell me, if i could hear you speaking?--t.r.

[Rose]

I'm sure you are all lovely people, but I doubt that any of you were as polite and well-behaved at the age of three as you think you were.

[brooklynpotter]

rose, lol. though my mother will tell you differently. and she put all the blame of any bad behavior straight on my brother. they used to call him the "walking disaster area"
_________________
what would you tell me, if i could hear you speaking?--t.r.

[bklyngirl]

I agree, Rose (and nice cat!). My sister was a biter. It didn't take much to provoke her - in fact, it took a mere glance.

I agree - no one is blaming the kids. yes, it IS the responsibility of the parents to apologize for their child AND make the child apologize. It is also the responsibility of the parent to remove a child from a restaurant or enclosed place if the child is in full-blown melt-down. Unfortunately, life is more complicated than that, and removal is not always possible, or not as possible as quickly as some people would like.

Yes, Brooklynpotter, children will disturb people. We live in a city where we live close together. There are plenty of local crazies who scare me more than the kids. My pet peeve is the people who smoke outside my office building while on their cell phones. They are very animated and have burnt me with their cigs on many occasions. Then there are the people who don't pick up after their dogs.

We all have a gripe. What I disagree with is starting a rant, as I see it, for no reason to than to vent and start a posse against people who are then perceived as lazy, irresponsible, overly wealthy, underly involved, etc. I suspect the people bothered most are the ones who don't have kids. Wanna rant? Use the phrase "those people".

As a lifelong NYer and a parent, I can tell you it is a no-win situation. Between the pregnancy police, the kiddie police, the bad nanny police, the childless (or child-free, take your pick), the uberboobers and the sanctimommies - well jeez. We dress our kids too slutty, or give them fake guns. I do what I can, and as my kids are getting older, I can see the hard work paying off. You really wouldn't have thought so when they were 3.

If there was some way to harness that anger and turn it into something productive. Use the power of all this anger to make someting good happen, even just a little. Crying and moaning is no better than the "self-absorbed" parents being complained about.

Or maybe I'm just in the wrong place here.

[laura]

[raw]

[brooklynpotter]