[Laura B]

Hey, sorry to put up yet another gentriconfrontational post, but this is interesting/scary:

According to Streetsblog (via Brooklyn Record), "One of the more troublesome aspects of Forest City Enterprise's 'Atlantic Yards' proposal is the developer's plan to create two rather huge, suburban mall-style surface parking lots on the eastern side of the project footprint. If all goes as planned there will 3,600 new parking spaces will be in place by 2012." This may sound like good news for local residents who own cars and don't want Nets fans taking over all the street parking, but those who oppose the project don't want a huge parking lot in their neighborhood, either. Local blogger BrooklynSpeaks makes another interesting point: "The more parking provided, the more people will chose to drive — and the more traffic created."

[ana.log]

wow, that's depressing
_________________
selfindulgence.com

[Jamzer]

Look at the bright side. More parking = fewer skyscrapers.

[armchair_warrior]

wow thats a huge parking lot. well one thing for sure locales gonna abuse it for free parking :p beats paying 250 a month hehe.

[rogersma]

No free parking from Mr. Ratner. The lots will partly be used to stage construction equipment--always an eye-pleasing addition to any neighborhood--and the rest for construction worker parking.

And here's the beauty part: he's going to charge the construction workers to park!

The rich get richer...

[armchair_warrior]

[caaahyoko]

So they would only be there while the project is being built?



Of course, that's not much better since it will drag on till 2012 at least.

[ratnerville4ever]

[Jack Krohn]

Parking lot or not, Vanderbilt will continue to do well. In the past 2.5 years it has seen the expansion of Soda, the renovation of The Usual, and the arrival of numerous small businesses, including Joyce Bakery, Brooklyn Delicacies, Beast, Amorina, India Place, Indigo, Corduroy Kid, a shoe shop (whose name I can't recall right now), Le Gamin, Fermented Grapes, the Wine Exchange, and NooNa. A Mexican restaurant is underway at the corner of St. Mark's. I hate to interfere with your "doom and gloom" funfest, but reality just doesn't bode well for these absurd predictions.

By the way, good luck with those ED lawsuits. Last time I checked, 100K was no match for the resources of a billionaire.

[ratnerville4ever]

[rogersma]

Those parking lots may be there longer than anyone thinks. As the New York Observer reported several months ago, FCE (Ratner's parent company) can delay indefinitely any construction on those blocks if economic conditions aren't favorable.

Given all the economic uncertainties in this megaproject (plus the current direction of the luxury condo market) a lot of real estate insiders think that completion by 2016 is iffy.

Institutional investors like FCE stock because the firm is "disciplined"--which in this context means that FCE will walk away or delay projects in mid-course if they're not making enough money. Allowing them to tear down buildings long before they plan to build is another example of just how corrupt this process is.

[Jack Krohn]

Dan,

Your comment on Vanderbilt Avenue's success referred to the existence of the parking lot, not the construction (though that, too, won't stop the development of Vanderbilt Avenue). But perhaps you're correct in your dire predictions. I can see it now:

Husband: Honey, there's a new restaurant on Vanderbilt. Let's check it out.

Wife: I'd like to, dear, but, I don't know. That parking lot really bothers me.

Husband: C'mon, the food at this place is supposed to be delicious.

Wife: No, I don't think so. I hear that there's also a lot of construction going on in that area. Construction and parking lots make me lose my appetite. Let's go to Manhattan instead.

Really, I see that I'm totally "clueles". One observation, though: on one hand people opposed to the Atlantic Yards are fond of calling it instant gentrification, but now we have a theory that it will actually slow gentrification. Make up your mind, guys.

[escap]

[phmimi]

Mr. Krohn,
You list independent, small businesses on Vanderbilt which add to its attraction and charm. I don't think you take into account the sea change that will happen when a large development is built. Small business will be driven out and chains like Applebee's, Chili's, Duane Reade, banks, the inevitable Hallmark card shop will take over. There will cheap Chinese takeout and probably a Fried Chicken franchise - maybe even KFC! Also, due to zoning the building on Vanderbilt can be demolished and rebuilt up to 8 stories (I believe). The allover effect will be something like Rego Park, not the neighborhood we all know and love. I cannot think of any large housing development or project that is surrounded by small shops. The economics don't work that way. Basically, the PH we know now is toast.

[doctorj]

[sje]

No shit, phmimi. Since my shop is only half a block from the coming parking lot, I dread it, deeply. Fumes, noise and no people, completely deserted at night. Dusting over and over again and rats. Whoopee. My shop most likely will not survive it, and I will have to move again, thanks to that huge, flaming asshole, Mr. Ratner, cement's best friend. Anyone still think this is a great idea? Jobs for parking lot attendents, anyone? Economy is heading south already.

[Trini128]

I'm ambivalent about AY in general, but I don't think anyone can deny that parking lots aren't good for foot traffic. Having said that, neither are railyards, so I'm not convinced that this will wreck the Vandy resurgence.

On the bright side, maybe some of the businesses will relocate to the underserved Underhill & Washington Avenues!

As for the AY-opponent contradiction, I think that their point is that the towers will bring in chain-store "gentrification", and not, say, Fort Greene-style gentrification. I think this is basically true (though I wouldn't call the former gentrification), but it doesn't strike me as a very principled argument.

[escap]

Other issues over AY aside, why would the towers lead to more chains? If anything I'd think the foot traffic would be a boon to small businesses. Some chains might open up, no doubt, but it seems both chains and non-chains would increase, rather than it being an "either-or" scenario.

Also, I'm still not sure how that explains the contradiction over land value. Will AY make the area cheaper or more expensive? I don't understand how, for example, increased traffic, less sunlight, destruction of community, overflowing schools, dangerous crowds, and all the other promised ills, could possibly lead to rising land values. That is, unless there are a host of other positive offsetting the negatives that are not being mentioned. Otherwise, at least we could all agree that the horrible damage AY will do to the are will make it more affordable. So which is it, are there offsetting positives, or will it become more affordable?

[phmimi]

RE chains - have you ever lived in an apartment complex? Have you ever noticed the kinds of stores that you see there? Have you looked at Ratner's Metrotech or the Malls and seen the businesses there - Au Bon Pain, Chucky Cheese, Starbucks, etc. Why do you think the deli on Flatbush became a Dunkin Donuts? Because chains will come in if they can get the volume of business they want and they will pay much higher rents than an Alesio or a Beast could ever pay. Where to you think people going to a Nets game want to eat? Alesio or MacDonalds? Over time, just as in private homes and apts, those willing to pay higher rents drive out those who can't afford them. Maybe not all at once, but over time this will happen. Vanderbilt was neglected for years and the storefronts were relatively cheap but remember Ratner is building the highest density development in the United States and the big stores will come in, without doubt. Unless they tear down the buildings and make parking lots for people who come to the Nets games. Anyway it doesn't look good unfortunately.

[doctorj]

[escap]

Damn it, doctorj, you beat me to the punch as usual.

As you said, the areas with the highest commercial rents in the city are hardly overrun by chain restaurants. Certainly, as rents go up then high-end restaurants may replace the cheap places, but look at Bleecker St, West Broadway, Madison Ave, Greenwich St, and you won't find many Dunkin Donuts or KFC's. On the contrary, as doctorj said, chains tend to serve lower income customers in NYC.

Which brings me to my next point: perhaps, if we can all agree on the common goal of preventing the area from being overrun by Bennigan's and Wendy's, then we can rally community support to eliminate the "affordable" units in the Ratner plan. I see this as a win-win. Unlike most opposition proposals, Ratner will surely jump to embrace this one if the community demands it, b/c the units are designed more to buy friends than to make money. Eliminating the regulated units in exchange for allowing a few more market units will also achieve a second common goal: reducing density. I'm sure Ratner would be willing to make this trade, since it will result in far greater income per unit, and therefore he could build less and thus save money on construction costs. There would therefore be less traffic and congestion than in the current plan, and even the long shadows problem would be reduced. On top of all that, the yuppie scum that would move into these high-priced apartments would fuel a boom in trendy clothing boutiques, nice restaurants, cafes, bookstores, bakeries, you name it.

So, whaddaya say? Can I get an Amen??

[Carnivore]

I think phmimi was thinking of the main example of a high density plus stadium area in NY, that being MSG/Penn Station and it's surrounds. That is kind of like a nightmare vision of what could happen to the area surrounding the AY project.

[alafairnadia]

[doctorj]

[escap]

Chains definitely gravitate to high density commercial areas where people work, like the MSG area; not so much b/c of people's tastes as because office workers and people in quick transit want somewhere they can get food fast. So I agree that the stadium will likely attract these sorts of places, and if a lot of offices open up in the area then quick lunch spots will surely follow.

However, there's room for both, and I personally doubt such places will stretch deep into PH or FG; more likely, they'll be concentrated around the busiest areas near the stadium. Will that be great? No. But I'll take it over the railyards and desolation that are there now. Joyce's Bakeshop will still be safe.

[Carnivore]

[doctorj]

[escap]

Don't forget also that a few blocks to the west of MSG are a complex of housing projects, whose presence adds to the rough atmosphere. I guarantee that if those projects were luxury condos, the MSG area would be dramatically different. (Note, I'm not making a moral judgment here about whether poor people deserve to have public housing on prime real estate; I'm just stating a fact about the effect those projects have on the area. It's not fair that the Garden should take all the blame for the area's seediness.)

[homeowner]