Gowanus Generating Station

dailyheights

Ben wrote:

> Last night I went to the DEC public scoping meeting at PS 24 for the
> US Power Generating project at Gowanus Generating Station. I was
> literally the only member of the public (read: person not affiliated
> with the government, a private company, or a citizen's group) in
> attendance. US Power Gen wants to install a shiny new GE natural gas
> turbine to produce up to an extra 100 megawatts under peak load,
> mostly to keep air conditioners running and lights turned on in the
> summer and have a net decrease in emissions from the GGS. Still
> though, seems like now might be a good time to start reducing the
> number of power plants along the Brooklyn waterfront, instead of
> investing a bunch more time and money into increasing capacity.
>
> After the meeting I pulled aside a really nice guy from the power
> company and asked him about the possible use of hydrogen fuel cells or
> another non-fossil fuel source. They did evaluate hydrogen for the
> site and found that the best generator they could get would be much
> larger than the turbine and only crank out about 2 megawatts -- not
> nearly good enough. But I was convinced that they really are trying
> to do the green thing.
>
> Fun fact: apparently Sunset Park has a higher-than-normal rate of
> childhood asthma. The residents seem to think it has something to do
> with the thick layer of crud that travels from the power plant
> smokestacks into the air and settles on their homes and cars. Not
> sure if this is true.
>
> Ben

evilbert

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

dailyheights wrote:
> After the meeting I pulled aside a really nice guy from the power
> company and asked him about the possible use of hydrogen fuel cells or
> another non-fossil fuel source.

Fun fact: Hydrogen takes energy to create, and is therefore not a fuel source. It can be considered a battery, but not a source of power.

Hydrogen fuel cells currently cost too much to make them economically attractive for cars. A fuel cell power plant is out of the question.

dailyheights wrote:
> Fun fact: apparently Sunset Park has a higher-than-normal rate of
> childhood asthma. The residents seem to think it has something to do
> with the thick layer of crud that travels from the power plant
> smokestacks into the air and settles on their homes and cars. Not
> sure if this is true.
>
> Ben

Additional fun fact:

Natural Gas burners are very clean burning and do not produce a "thick layer of crud".

fun fact number 2:

Asthma hospitalization rates for both adults and children (0-17 years old) in Sunset Park have decreased in the past
decade. The average annual hospitalization rate due to adult asthma in 2003-2004 was the same in Sunset Park, Brooklyn,
and NYC overall (3/1,000). The 2003-2004 rate among children in Sunset Park (2/1,000) was lower than in Brooklyn
(5/1,000) and NYC overall (6/1,000).

top of page 13:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/data/2006chp-205.pdf

The Sunset Park power plant was built in 2001

Who is this chap and why is he spreading such blatent mis-information? :?

carnivore

Evilbert, it's entirely possible for the area to have higher than normal asthma rates at the same time that asthma hospitalization has gone down. Over the past decade, many new asthma medications have become available that make patients much less likely to be hospitalized for their disease. So it's entirely possible that hospitalizations may decrease while the overall number of patients with asthma may be rising (which isn't even what the OP claimed, he just said that the rate was higher than normal).

Now whether the higher-than-normal asthma rate is due to the power plant or other factors is a different question.

ben242

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

Hello "Evilbert." I am Ben [edited]

Evilbert wrote:
Fun fact: Hydrogen takes energy to create, and is therefore not a fuel source. It can be considered a battery, but not a source of power.

Hydrogen fuel cells currently cost too much to make them economically attractive for cars. A fuel cell power plant is out of the question.

Honda is leasing a fuel cell vehicle called FCX Clarity in California right now in a pilot program. GM is distributing a hydrogen fuel cell version of the Chevy Equinox for testing to the public.

Here's a link to a piece entitled "Caterpillar and FuelCell Energy Announce Largest Fuel Cell Power Plant Installation in Illinois". Its dated October 2003.

http://www.iags.org/n103003t2.htm

Seriously, though, don't stop posting. And dial up the snark if possible. Please?

Evilbert wrote:
Additional fun fact:

Natural Gas burners are very clean burning and do not produce a "thick layer of crud".

There are currently 32 power generating stations along the Brooklyn waterfront. As far as I know, none of them burn natural gas. I don't know what the fuel is, but I know that the Sunset Park residents who were at the meeting reported a thick layer of crud. I don't know if its true. Maybe I should stop using the phrase "fun fact." You should definitely stop overusing it.

Evilbert wrote:
fun fact number 2:

Asthma hospitalization rates for both adults and children (0-17 years old) in Sunset Park have decreased in the past
decade. The average annual hospitalization rate due to adult asthma in 2003-2004 was the same in Sunset Park, Brooklyn,
and NYC overall (3/1,000). The 2003-2004 rate among children in Sunset Park (2/1,000) was lower than in Brooklyn
(5/1,000) and NYC overall (6/1,000).

top of page 13:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/data/2006chp-205.pdf

Good to know.

Evilbert wrote:
The Sunset Park power plant was built in 2001

I don't know if thats true, or if "Sunset Park power plant" is the same as Gowanus Generating Station, which is what the South Pier Improvement Project is about.

Evilbert wrote:
Who is this Ben [edited] chap and why is he spreading such blatent mis-information? :?

Dude, you really need to chill out.

evilbert

Carnivore wrote: Evilbert, it's entirely possible for the area to have higher than normal asthma rates at the same time that asthma hospitalization has gone down. Over the past decade, many new asthma medications have become available that make patients much less likely to be hospitalized for their disease. So it's entirely possible that hospitalizations may decrease while the overall number of patients with asthma may be rising (which isn't even what the OP claimed, he just said that the rate was higher than normal).

Now whether the higher-than-normal asthma rate is due to the power plant or other factors is a different question.

Read page 12 of the report - it covers asthma sufferers.

The OP doesn't cite any sources. If you want to make a claim, you have to cite a source or your claim is baseless.

I see bogus statistics thrown around all the time on the interwebs. It's a pet peeve

ben242

Evilbert wrote:
The OP doesn't cite any sources. If you want to make a claim, you have to cite a source or your claim is baseless.

I did cite a source -- a guy named Edward Wade who spoke at the meeting on Monday night. I don't claim he's an authoritative source, nor do I claim that his statement is a fact. I actually said that I didn't know if it was true.

pitu

Hi Ben
Thanks for posting this info -- I hadn't seen anything about this anywhere else and it's the kind of thing I like to know about...

evilbert

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

ben242 wrote: Hello "Evilbert." I am Ben [edited]

Hi Ben. Pleased to meet you.

ben242 wrote:
Honda is leasing a fuel cell vehicle called FCX Clarity in California right now in a pilot program. GM is distributing a hydrogen fuel cell version of the Chevy Equinox for testing to the public.

The FCX leases at $600/month. The cars currently cost $300,000 to build, so god knows what they'd cost to buy. The high price is due to the fuel cell components and isn't likely to drop significantly in the forseeable future.

reference:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2007-11-22-fcx-clarity_N.htm

ben242 wrote: Here's a link to a piece entitled "Caterpillar and FuelCell Energy Announce Largest Fuel Cell Power Plant Installation in Illinois". Its dated October 2003.

http://www.iags.org/n103003t2.htm

DFC systems run on hydrocarbons, not hydrogen. They look like a promising technology, but are insuficcient for today's demand. As you can find out from a quick Google search, NYC power companies are already using them extensively to supplement existing power plants by processing sewer gas. They run the the range of 100-400KW, which is less than 1% of the output of a gas-fired power plant.

The one you linked to is the biggest yet at 250KW, which would maybe supply a Brooklyn apartment building, but wouldn't make a dent in the demand from a whole district. Pricing for the facility is not mentioned and I can't find any figures online.

For comparison, the proposed Sunset Park expansion will add 150 MEGAWATTS to it's existing facility.

ben242 wrote: Seriously, though, don't stop posting. And dial up the snark if possible. Please?

A bit touchy arn't we, Ben?

ben242 wrote:
There are currently 32 power generating stations along the Brooklyn waterfront. As far as I know, none of them burn natural gas. I don't know what the fuel is, but I know that the Sunset Park residents who were at the meeting reported a thick layer of crud. I don't know if its true.

I can't find any details of waterfront powerplant fuels. I'll have a look later. I have to get back to work now.

ben242 wrote: Dude, you really need to chill out.

If I chilled out anymore, I'd be able to sell the liquid nitrogen generated by the air touching my skin. Seriously, I'm that chilled. I'm Antartic in my chilledness.

ben242

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

Evilbert wrote:
The FCX leases at $600/month. The cars currently cost $300,000 to build, so god knows what they'd cost to buy. The high price is due to the fuel cell components and isn't likely to drop significantly in the forseeable future.

It is expensive now, but as with all consumer technology, the price will drop if the hardware becomes commodity and competition increases.

Evilbert wrote:
DFC systems run on hydrocarbons, not hydrogen. They look like a promising technology, but are insuficcient for today's demand. As you can find out from a quick Google search, NYC power companies are already using them extensively to supplement existing power plants by processing sewer gas. They run the the range of 100-400KW, which is less than 1% of the output of a gas-fired power plant.

The one you linked to is the biggest yet at 250KW, which would maybe supply a Brooklyn apartment building, but wouldn't make a dent in the demand from a whole district. Pricing for the facility is not mentioned and I can't find any figures online.

For comparison, the proposed Sunset Park expansion will add 150 MEGAWATTS to it's existing facility.

If you go back to my writing in the first post of the thread, you'll see that you're repeating back to me things I already said. Specifically, "[US Power Gen] did evaluate hydrogen for the site and found that the best generator they could get would be much larger than the turbine and only crank out about 2 megawatts -- not nearly good enough."

I got the 2 megawatts figure from a really nice guy named David Perri who works for US Power Gen.

There is a web site for the project at http://s193417606.onlinehome.us/SPIP2/index.php

It doesn't have much technical detail, but its a start.

Evilbert wrote: A bit touchy arn't we, Ben?

Maybe you think I'm being a little overly sensitive, but the fact is that my real name is now in this thread and associated with my writing here. This little exchange where I get teased by some dude who goes by "Evilbert" is going to show up in Google searches, and frankly I don't need a potential future employer reading this and getting the wrong impression of me.

You post from behind the veil of anonymity, so you don't mind being antagonistic and aggressive. No one will ever ask you about this thread, so you have no responsibility to yourself or anyone else.

evilbert

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

ben242 wrote:

It is expensive now, but as with all consumer technology, the price will drop if the hardware becomes commodity and competition increases.

Will the price of the platinum used to make the catalysts come down? That's what's making them so expensive. Mass production may help the nanoparticle production process become cheaper but you still have to come up with the platinum in the first place. It aint cheap.

ben242 wrote: If you go back to my writing in the first post of the thread, you'll see that you're repeating back to me things I already said. Specifically, "[US Power Gen] did evaluate hydrogen for the site and found that the best generator they could get would be much larger than the turbine and only crank out about 2 megawatts -- not nearly good enough."

You stated hydrogen fuel cells were considered. I've been talking about DFC systems which run on hydrocarbons. NY power companies already use them to supplement existing power plants.

Hydrogen fuel cell plants are something completely different entirely. If any power companies were considering using them, then it'd be a world first. AFAIK, nobody has ever made a commercial hydrogen fuel cell for large scale electricity supply.

ben242 wrote:
Maybe you think I'm being a little overly sensitive, but the fact is that my real name is now in this thread and associated with my writing here. This little exchange where I get teased by some dude who goes by "Evilbert" is going to show up in Google searches, and frankly I don't need a potential future employer reading this and getting the wrong impression of me.

You post from behind the veil of anonymity, so you don't mind being antagonistic and aggressive. No one will ever ask you about this thread, so you have no responsibility to yourself or anyone else.

You chose to use your real name, I choose to use a nickname. Don't complain to me if you're worried about how it makes you look - it's not my problem.

If you're worried about what people may think of you from this thread then either don't use your real name or go back and delete all your posts. If you'd just have a civil discussion you'd have nothing to worry about. Are you new to this "internet" thing?

booklaw

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

You chose to use your real name, I choose to use a nickname. Don't complain to me if you're worried about how it makes you look - it's not my problem.

If you're worried about what people may think of you from this thread then either don't use your real name or go back and delete all your posts. If you'd just have a civil discussion you'd have nothing to worry about. Are you new to this "internet" thing?

The person having a civil discussion is clearly the one using his real name. Unfortunately, he's trying to have that discussion with a three-year old showoff snark...

evilbert

Subject: Re: Gowanus Generating Station

booklaw wrote:

You chose to use your real name, I choose to use a nickname. Don't complain to me if you're worried about how it makes you look - it's not my problem.

If you're worried about what people may think of you from this thread then either don't use your real name or go back and delete all your posts. If you'd just have a civil discussion you'd have nothing to worry about. Are you new to this "internet" thing?

The person having a civil discussion is clearly the one using his real name. Unfortunately, he's trying to have that discussion with a three-year old showoff snark...

If you're not going to contribute anything constructive, please don't post anything at all.

MOD NOTE: since this board put Ben's name out there in the first place, we have edited it out of this thread.
Now please stay on topic . . . and check out the rules of this site, linked at the top of every page. We require civil discourse. Spare us the snark and the baiting, or go elsewhere. THX