SPLIT TOPIC: MSNBC, pimping and Chelsea Clinton

sevenoneeighty

P.S.

But they DID pimp Chelsea out, didn't they?
And really, are we really that offended by the word "pimp" in 2008?



We could argue context, but the use of the word has pretty much been normalized in American pop culture and society. It's like saying something "sucks" without being accused of implying someone is actually performing a certain task....

And let's be honest, Old bill is pretty "pimp-tastic":


Isn't this the same guys who WAS getting a certain task performed on HIM in the Oval Office?

pitu

SevenOneEighty wrote: P.S.

But they DID pimp Chelsea out, didn't they?
And really, are we really that offended by the word "pimp" in 2008?

In this context, the choice of words is a problem, yeah.
:roll:
Do you want to say Obama is pimping Michelle? Do you want to say any woman working on a campaign is being pimped?

sweet tea

pitu wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty]P.S.

But they DID pimp Chelsea out, didn't they?
And really, are we really that offended by the word "pimp" in 2008?

In this context, the choice of words is a problem, yeah.
:roll:
Do you want to say Obama is pimping Michelle? Do you want to say any woman working on a campaign is being pimped?

agreed. 7180, your mention of "pimp my ride" ignores the fact that the verb "to pimp" has (at least) two different meanings now (direct object in parentheses), and the preposition matters:

1. to make (something) look cool: pimp my ride
2. often with "out", to provide (someone as) a prostitute: pimp out my daughter

lord knows the stanford-educated daughter of the clintons, of all people, is able to make up her own mind about politics. after all, she's just a little older than her mother was when she decided that the politics she'd been raised on weren't her own.

sevenoneeighty

Yea, I understand that.

But I would also say that the word "pimp" itself has become very used in our society to the extent that it no longer means anything. I hear it in movies, TV and music all the time.

Yes, they are ALL pimping used car salesman and women looking to collect votes. I can just do without the fake "outrage" all the time. Imus used the word 'ho' and got in big trouble. But then we hear the word on SNL, movies, music and in other contexts as well so folks think it is alright to use. We are all familiar with the usage of other otherwise "inappropriate" words that are allowed. Someone should just write a rule book becuase the lines are too blurred.

This guy thought he was being "hip" and up to date but wasn't calling Chelsea a hooker. Funny enough, I have now heard reporters, commentators and pundits use the word "dis" on live TV. That is just the way it is.

All I'm saying is, make a list and let everyone live by it.

Example of the "normalization" of the word "pimp" performed at a recent OSCAR show:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11593167/

And then performed at THE OSCARS to a cheering crowd of Hollywood elite folks:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtIOHw80dFg&feature=related

I'm not sayin' it's right, but we have some work to do.
I cant be too hard on the guy....he is as confused as everyone else about it's use and acceptance. The movie was a fake story, but the Oscar awards ceremony is real life.

"whole 'lotta' b*tches jumpin' ship", indeed.

pitu

SevenOneEighty wrote: I cant be too hard on the guy....he is as confused as everyone else about it's use and acceptance.

Not everyone is confused.

You're going to have to DYODD* on this one.

* Do Your Own Due Diligence, an arcane internet construction

lilbangladesh

You know, it doesn't matter if it's popularly accepted in the culture or that women voluntarily participate with it.

It's still misogynistic.

sevenoneeighty

Not everyone is confused.
Very Happy
You're going to have to DYODD* on this one.

* Do Your Own Due Diligence, an arcane internet construction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_6_Mafia#Academy_Award_win

Academy Award win

On March 5, 2006, Three 6 Mafia made history as they became the first Black music group to win an Academy Award for Best Song and also became the first hip-hop artists to ever perform at the ceremony.[1] The group was nominated for the song "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp" from the Hustle & Flow soundtrack.

Well now I am confused.

Somebody better call the folks at the Academy and let them know this is unacceptable.... :roll:

pitu

Hustle and Flow was excellent. I (heart) Terrence Howard.


Do you seriously not see a difference between MSNBC *News and a fiction film about a hustler (or for that matter, a fine indie doc like "American Pimp")
:?:
think harder

If you really don't understand all this craaazzeeee context stuff, you should probably keep it simple.
Here's the rule for you:
Using the word "pimp" is unacceptable.

sevenoneeighty

pitu wrote: Hustle and Flow was excellent. I (heart) Terrence Howard.


Do you seriously not see a difference between MSNBC *News and a fiction film about a hustler (or for that matter, a fine indie doc like "American Pimp")
:?:
think harder

If you really don't understand all this craaazzeeee context stuff, you should probably keep it simple.
Here's the rule for you:
Using the word "pimp" is unacceptable.

um..is that Chelsea back there in that pic...?

C'mon, the word pimp is totally acceptable today - and you know it is too. That is why you can now celebrate it as an acceptable profession in 2008.

It's funny that you don't see the irony! Do you like the 3-6 mafia song like the academy too?Do you sing it when it comes on the radio? LOL!!!
Shuster will be back just like Imus and all will be well in the universe again.

Americans are such strange creatures.

pitu

pitu wrote:
If you really don't understand all this craaazzeeee context stuff, you should probably keep it simple.
Here's the rule for you:
Using the word "pimp" is unacceptable.

jeffrey

I have just one question.

What is a B.L.A.D.?

sevenoneeighty

jeffrey wrote: I have just one question.

What is a B.L.A.D.?

I think that is a hustlers term; ask the Clintons.
After last night, looks like Chelsea is going to have to get back out there....they need mo' money

Okay wait,
So you loved the movie "Hustle and Flow" (and presumably the lead song about pimping), you loved the "American Pimp" doc. also, but findthe USE of the word "pimp" unacceptable...? I liked the acting too but Ialso found the story itself it to be a sad commentary. YES, there is confusion, contradiction, hypocrisy and straight up phoniness about this and other issues and words.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimp

Other uses

A pimp can also mean "a despicable person".[4] In the first years of the 21st century, however, a new meaning of the word has emerged in the form of a transitive verb which means "to decorate" or "to gussy." The instigation for this new definition stems from Pimp My Ride, an MTV television show. Although this new definition paid homage to hip-hop culture and its connection to street culture, it has now entered common, even mainstream commercial, use.[5] In medical context, the verb also means "To ask (a student) a question for the purpose of testing his knowledge."[6]

I'm just saying, people are NOT getting the "pimp usage" memo apparently and are confused by its "appropriate" use and appropriate "time" to love using it:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/02/09/should-olbermann-apologize-accusing-bush-pimping-petraeus

make sure you watch the video

Should Olbermann Apologize for Accusing Bush of Pimping Petraeus?

By Noel Sheppard | February 9, 2008 - 19:49 ET

As NewsBusters readers are fully aware, MSNBC's David Shuster has apologized and been suspended for asking a guest on Thursday's "Tucker," "[D]oesn't it seem like Chelsea [Clinton's] sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?"

As if that wasn't enough, on Friday evening's "Countdown," host Keith Olbermann also apologized (video available here):

David has been suspended and remains only for me to apologize without limit to President Clinton and to Ms. Clinton on behalf of MSNBC. We are literally, dreadfully sorry.

If MSNBC is so sorry for Shuster's use of this phrase, shouldn't they be suspending Olbermann for a similar comment he made about President Bush and Gen. David Petraeus on September 20 (video available here courtesy of our friend Johnny Dollar, relevant section begins 55 seconds in, although readers are strongly encouraged to watch the entire delicious piece):

Mr. Bush, you had no right to order General Petraeus to become your front man. And he obviously should have refused that order, and resigned rather than ruin his military career. The upshot is, and contrary it is to the MoveOn advertisement, he betrayed himself more than he did us. But there has been in his action a sort of reflective courage, some twisted vision of duty at a time much crisis.

The man does not understand that serving officers cannot double as serving political ops is not so much his fault as it is your good exploitable fortune. Mr. Bush, you have hidden behind the general`s skirts, and today you have hidden behind the skirts of the planted last question at a news conference to indicate, once again, that your presidency has been about the tilted playing field, about no rules for your party, in terms of character assassination, and changing the fabric of our nation, and no right for your opponents or critics to as much as respond.

That, sir, is not only un-American, it is dictatorial. And in pimping General David Petraeus, sir, in violation of everything this country has been assiduously and vigilantly against for 220 years, you have tried to blur the gleaming radioactive demarcation between the military and the political, and to portray your party as the one associated with the military and your opponents as the ones somehow antithetical to it.

With this in mind, I humbly ask the good folks at MSNBC: if it was so disgraceful of Shuster to pose this "pimped out" question to Bill Press, wasn't it just as disgraceful for Olbermann to claim that President Bush was pimping Gen. Petraeus?

Should we who hold the office of the President with the utmost of esteem be expecting an apology from Olbermann, as well as his suspension?

No, I'm not holding my breath.

—Noel Sheppard is an economist, business owner, and Associate Editor of NewsBusters.

Or Maybe it's just MSNBC.
What is going on over there at Rockerfeller?
But This is the trap in an "anything goes" culture sometimes. If you celebrate one "pimp", you celebrate them all. You cant' put the genie back in the bottle or take your ball and go home when things don't go your way...Yup, this context stuff is craazzzeeee, indeed.

lilbangladesh

The word just isn't appropriate. Period. I'm willing to tolerate the word in its new usage as "gussied up" but even then, it still celebrates "pimp" as a positive thing, which it isn't. Just because other people use it does NOT make it appropriate. If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you? (Do I sound like your mother yet?)

Actually, what is more worrisome is, while racist language is being gradually taken off the table, as it should be, sexist language seems to get a free pass. It is JUST as degrading and JUST as damaging. Calling a woman a "ho" or celebrating female sexual servitude through "pimp" IS the same thing as using the N-word. It's dehumanizing.

pitu

lilbangladesh wrote: The word just isn't appropriate. Period. I'm willing to tolerate the word in its new usage as "gussied up" but even then, it still celebrates "pimp" as a positive thing, which it isn't. Just because other people use it does NOT make it appropriate. If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you? (Do I sound like your mother yet?)

The word "pimp" is just a word, not the problem. This particular usage is the problem, carelessly sexist and inaccurate. Or intentionally sexist and inaccurate, whatever.
If you're talking about an actual pimp, by all means, say "pimp."

If you think it's amusing to throw this around in other contexts, prepare to be suspended from your major media gig.

I don't understand this "genie out of a bottle" stuff. It's just a word. It has a meaning. Easy-peasy.
This is in no way like the N-word. "Pimp" was never one of those super racist (or sexist) words.

pitu

just so we remember what the topic is...

sweet tea wrote: lord knows the stanford-educated daughter of the clintons, of all people, is able to make up her own mind about politics. after all, she's just a little older than her mother was when she decided that the politics she'd been raised on weren't her own.

pitu

I must be out of my mind to bump this one back up, but . . .

'Today' Show Apologizes for Jane Fonda's Use of 'C-Word'

NEW YORK (AP) -- NBC News is apologizing again -- this time for Jane Fonda.

The actress used the "C-word" on the "Today'' show Thursday while talking about "The Vagina Monologues.'' Fonda is appearing in a 10th-anniversary performance.

Fonda said she was asked to perform a monologue with the offensive word as the title. She said her reply was, ``I don't think so. I've got enough problems.''

About 10 minutes later, "Today'' co-host Meredith Vieira told viewers that "Today'' and Fonda apologized for the remark.

NBC has recently apologized for comments made by Chris Matthews and David Shuster.

The news folks bundle it together with Shuster's idiotic sexist comment, but I don't. I think Ms Jane used the word appropriately and in context; it's not like she was calling someone a name in anger. Although I guess The C Word is just a little too much for the Today Show.
What do they think the Vagina Monologues is about, anyway?
:roll:
Happy V Day!

sevenoneeighty

Interesting older article on the celebration of "pimp" culture here.
It's out of the bottle.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/women-and-popular-culture-the-pimp-chic-debate-467362.html

Women and popular culture: The pimp chic debate

Dame Anita Roddick has attacked young female role models who think it is "cool to be a whore", criticising stars such as Britney Spears, right, and Beyoncé over the sexual imagery in their videos. Maxine Frith reports

Wednesday, 22 February 2006

Pimp used to be a dirty word. To be accused of dressing or acting like one was an incontrovertible term of abuse. Now, however, it is the height of fashion. At least to some.

"Pimp chic" has entered mainstream culture, with the music industry, luxury shops, clothes designers and even airlines adopting symbols of the culture to advertise their products. Sharp-suited men with scowls, skimpily clad women looking up to them in awe, flash cars and lots of bling may be nothing new when it comes to selling glamour and "cool", but observers say they are becoming increasingly concerned about the effect of marketing these images, especially to children.

Dame Anita Roddick, founder of The Body Shop, hit out yesterday at the trend. She said: "A lot of people seem to think that it's cool to be a pimp or whore. It's not cool. The reality is dark, evil and appalling and unregulated. The reality is sex trafficking, which is about young women being forced into rooms to have sex however many times a day so that the pimp can take all the money."

She added: "There are thousands of ads, mostly focused on women and young girls, that say you are not attractive, you are not sexy, you are not intelligent, unless you look like this. In kids' magazines there is a passivity and a stupidity that is seen as a great way forward. Something has gone very wrong."

Dame Anita criticised stars such as Beyoncé and Britney Spears for simulating sex in their music videos, and highlighted the trend among some hip hop artists to make porn films to be marketed alongside the graphic lyrics of their songs. "What we have now is what I call "pimp and ho chic" with all aspects of the sex industry presented as hip and cool," she said."Pole dancing as exercise, lap-dancing clubs as places to see celebrities, fancy-dress balls and the everyday use of the words "bitch" and "ho" to refer to women are just some of the examples I have come across."

The film director Spike Lee has also hit out at pimp culture, using a lecture at the University of Florida earlier this month to criticise rap stars such as Snoop Dogg for glamorising prostitution at the same time as reinforcing stereotypes about black men.

He said: "We are bombarded by these gangsta images again and again and again and again ... they do make a difference to human behaviour. No one gets upset any more that pimpdom gets elevated on a pedestal."

It is not just the music world that has embraced pimp chic with such fervour. Richard Branson's airline Virgin Atlantic launched an advertising campaign for its new Upper Class airport clubhouse last year that featured the slogan: "Pimp My Lounge." The department store Selfridges ran prominent advertisements last Christmas depicting a man in "pimp chic" clothes, holding a glass of champagne, with two semi-naked women draped over him. Alongside the image, a strapline read: "Get your Christmas booty."

Last week Madonna - no stranger to raunchy videos and suggestive choreography - appeared on the MTV show Pimp My Ride, in which the DJ Tim Westwood turns ordinary cars into bling-laden vehicles. And Hustle and Flow, a film about a pimp who becomes a gangsta rapper, won a £9m distribution deal at the most recent Sundance Film Festival - the biggest movie deal in the event's history.

Fashion has also embraced the trend, with labels such as Phat Pimp Clothing in London and the "pimp" style of singers such as Andre 3000 from the band Outkast being copied in the pages of glossy magazines. In his hit "Pimp Juice", the rap star Nelly included lines about luxury labels such as Prada, Gucci and Dolce e Gabbana.

Stacy Gillis, an expert in feminism at Newcastle University, believes that "pimp and ho chic" stereotypes black men and objectifies women. She commented: "It is about a white, middle class, Anglo-American culture which picks up on little bits and pieces of another society and class but doesn't really engage with it on a political level.

"There is a disenfranchised part of US society that does glamorise the pimp and fetishises their power and that has transferred over here as well. But it is grotesque in that we are talking about women who are extremely disenfranchised and it is about the complete sexualisation of female identity."

Dr Gillis is particularly concerned about the way in which pimp chic is now being marketed to children. The Playboy brand, for example, now has a best-selling line of pink and black pencil cases, stationery and clothes which the company says is aimed at teenagers, but which has proved to be even more popular with primary school-age girls.

High-street stores such as WH Smith have come in for severe criticism for selling the Playboy brand but have refused to stop doing so.

Dr Gillis said: "I have seen girls as young as four wearing boob tubes and T-shirts with slogans like 'So many boys, so little time'. They look up to people like Jordan and want a Playboy pencil case and watch a Beyoncé video. I find it deeply disturbing that we are sexualising girls' bodies at such a young age."

She added: "Pimp culture is part of the backlash against feminism, in which 'post feminism' is seen as being all about choice - that it's OK for me to get my tits out because it's my choice and that makes me a feminist. Well, no, it doesn't."

But is pimp culture really so bad? Jonathan Freeman, a lecturer in youth culture and marketing at the Warwick Business School, believes not. "I don't think the word pimp may have the same connotation for some young people and children as it has for people like Anita Roddick," he said. "They do not imbue it with the same malevolence, and if you look at something like the Virgin Atlantic campaign, it could be viewed as a bit of fun that fits in with its image and its name.

"I am not saying that it is right, but I think that different people will see it in a different light.

"What will be interesting is if people like Anita Roddick make people look at the culture in a different light and that makes the advertisers change tack."

Six women give their views

Alexia Loundras, music journalist and Mercury Prize judge

"There's no doubt that several successful male pop artists offer a less than enlightened portrayal of women in their music, but it's wrong to suggest that it is the whole picture. In the past few years there have been plenty of strong female voices offering young women far more positive pop role models - artists such as Ms Dynamite, Pink and Beyoncé's old group, Destiny's Child (they of the hit single 'Independent Women').

"Ms Roddick is right to draw attention to the fact that 'pimp' is inching towards becoming an accepted term for 'cool' (and it would've been nice if Madonna had considered that). But young people today are not stupid - there is simply no way that my 14-year-old sister would dream of thinking it was fashionable to describe themselves as 'whores'."

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, writer and broadcaster

"Anita Roddick is absolutely right to slam the pimp and whore culture, promoted by big business and detestable icons - licentious pop stars, so called rebels, black "pride" mercenaries and designer mobsters. They do it for money and status, they slash and burn moral boundaries, distort and coarsen society. Among black Britons it is destroying the parts racism couldn't reach or break. Boys and men, some more susceptible because they are under-educated, are drawn to mean, "cool" rap-star lifestyles - violent misanthropy, bling, drugs and half-naked girls. Black-on-black violence is spreading, disrespect for females endemic. Decent black men and women (those lucky and strong enough to retain a sense of themselves) can only watch and weep as the future dissolves into chaos."

Dawn Porter, author of Diaries of an Internet Lover (published by Virgin)

"I think the whole pimp culture thing has been taken out of context. Women like Beyoncé look fabulous. They may be bumping and grinding on their videos but hundreds of thousands of young girls admire them, not because they want to be prostitutes with a pimp, but because they are expressing themselves in the way that they want.

"I think the critics are blowing it out of proportion. I don't like seeing small girls walking down the street with tight tops and midriffs showing, but that is nothing new - I did it when I was younger. It's about dressing up for young girls, while for women it should be about having the freedom to dress how we want.

"As far as I am concerned, until we have exposed genitalia on a music video, there isn't a problem."

Max Akhtar, MTV presenter

"Beyoncé has talent. It is easy to pick on people who are successful, but she is young, a single woman and a multimillionaire - and that is inspirational. I see people like Mary J Blige and Beyoncé as role models.

"Rap music is still led by men. There's one Missy Elliot to every five Kanye Wests. Alicia Keys went from being a tomboy to wearing a negligee. When I asked her about the change in image, she said she felt she had reached the point in her career when no one could accuse her of being sexy to sell records.

"If I'm interviewing someone and choose to wear a skirt and heels, or jeans and a hoodie, I still know my stuff. Women already have to work harder to prove that it is not their face or their image that lets them be successful."

Caroline Coon, artist and founder of Cunst Art: Feminist Performance Art

"There is an issue about 'whore culture' but the way women have to confront it is by firstly acknowledging it is already illegal to buy sex from anybody under 18. People over the age of 18 should have the choice to do what they like with their bodies, and be as sexually explicit as they like - even for money. What culture has to do is overtly celebrate women who are sexual. The real problem is what male culture gives itself permission to do. How despicable of men to think that if a woman is sexual, she can be labelled a whore, men can do whatever they want with her, denigrate her, rape her, even murder her, and then excuse themselves.

"I valourise women who are overtly sexual and want to question women and men who are critical of women's sexual behaviour."

Joan Smith, columnist

"I do think Anita Roddick is right to raise this issue. Something which started in the 1970s as part of the sexual liberation of women has been hijacked and turned into something which is now simply part of the sex industry. I am shocked at how prevalent this culture is - from MTV to magazines like Nuts and Loaded, which convey something that is not nudity, but a particular version of male fantasies. Sex has been industrialised, through people-trafficking and prostitution. Young women are treated as commodities. And it is not acceptable to put some kind of jokey spin on this. Gangsta rap music comes from people who live in a violent society and in response adopt a macho identity. But it is wrong that something that comes out of a ghetto culture is celebrated without any understanding of its origins."

Can a person who hums and sings along to 3-6 Mafia or 50 Cent's "P.I.M.P." on main stream media also really be insulted when they hear the word pimp, so called, "out of context"? It just doesn't seem to jive.

Our culture seems confused here.

sevenoneeighty

Subject: Re: the "Genie"

I don't understand this "genie out of a bottle" stuff. It's just a word. It has a meaning. Easy-peasy. Laughing Laughing Laughing
This is in no way like the N-word. "Pimp" was never one of those super racist (or sexist) words.

One of my favorite lines in the Movie "Hustle and Flow" came from Terrence Howard. I'll use this movie since it was brought up as being a favorite.

When they were trying to put together his first single, he was saying the word "b*tch" in the now famous chorus line line "smack that b*tch".

He and his producer decided that was just plain wrong.
Terrence agreed and said

"Ay man, I ain't tryin' to call no 'ho' a b*tch"!
And I would agree, that is just wrong.

So, being the gentleman that he is, he decided on "whoop that "trick".
because as we ALL know ( by the success of the song in real life), "trick" is a much more respectful and acceptable term for describing your ho's.

Terrence Howard's acting was excellent, but I have to wonder if the director was trying to be ironic as well and was trying to say something else; I wonder if people got that too.

Just a movie or a reflection of acceptable culture?
The song WON the grammy (in real life) and was performed on live TV ( in real life). Folks sang along too - presumably some women...this is not just about "rap music" either.

Even in a movie, one that reflects real circumstance, when "trick" and "ho" become acceptable in lieu of "b*tch". It is hard to know where to draw the line. I hear this language every day on mt street from young black men who are NOT Terrence Howard and who do not have record contracts (so spare me the "it was just a movie" stuff). Maybe Shuster just needed some snappy beats in the background of his report for people to chill.

The Genie is OUT of the bottle and is not going back in.
Lace up your cleats boys and girls, the slope is gettin' slippery, indeed.
All I am saying is I can't get upset over the use of that word in American culture.

Still no comments from media or anyone on Keith Oberman using "pimp" on Bush and Gen. Patreaus though...hmmmm...interesting....is he going to get suspended too?

pitu

just fyi, changing the line to "trick" changes the content radically. I don't think you understand your own example.
trick = client

you're still not making the distinction between a person on a news show calling people names vs representing real life using the words of real life, and that is the key to understanding why a song gets an award and a news guy gets a suspension.

sevenoneeighty

pitu wrote: just fyi, changing the line to "trick" changes the content radically. I don't think you understand your own example.
trick = client

you're still not making the distinction between a person on a news show calling people names vs representing real life using the words of real life, and that is the key to understanding why a song gets an award and a news guy gets a suspension.

Nope, wrong - even in the context of the movie. He is talking about the woman. I notice it is ALWAYS women who try to say that too - usually the ones who like the song...hmmm...

See Urban Dictionary.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trick+ass+hoe

1. trick ass hoe
45 up, 11 down

The ultimate 3 word combination to put down a female who, more than anywhere, likes it in the ass, and will take any measures to get it.

john:Hey Jamie, your mom is a trick ass hoe
jamie:i know

1. trick
1717 up, 270 down


TricK'(n.) A broad term for describing women who are either teases, hoes, or one of the above pretending to be the other. Calling a woman a trick shows you are not impressed/convinced by their shit.

Trick! Get out of my room! or Trick! get on your knees!

Its a democratic site so the VOTES are what counts. People who try to associate "trick" with the "john" get it wrong as noted in the votes.
But, This was tried already in the press and then rightfully corrected - even by the artists 3-6 Mafia themselves. It is true that prostitutes "turn tricks" with johns (the men)" (verb).

But the use of trick (noun) is always the woman.
Reminds me of the Chris Rock joke when talking about women dancing to Vile, mysoginist rap music, with the justification:

"He aint talkin' about me"!.

Oh but Ladies, he is....he really is...
Even when growing up in Philly, Baltimore and DC, trick was ALWAYS used to describe a woman. Pitu, you know better than that though, c'mon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/movies/28sann.html?pagewanted=print

...From its meaner-than-it-sounds tag line ("Everybody gotta have a dream") to its pulpy fantasia of life in the ghetto, "Hustle & Flow" tackles a seedy world the way movies often do, simultaneously sensationalizing it and de-sensationalizing it. Our hero can't just rap about pimping; he has to be a pimp, too, with a ragtag stable of prostitutes. This is the vivid world that draws viewers in.

But at the same time, he can't actually be a real pimp, because (since he's our hero) he has to be basically nice, a pimp with a heart of gold. He really seems eager to empower the women who are also, he notes, his primary investors. And the odd irony of "Whoop That Trick" is that we never see DJay do any real whooping, even when one prostitute tries to goad him into beating her up. The only exception is when one woman gets a light, almost friendly smack, which helps her sing better...

Yes, its only a movie or song, but we are talking about acceptability here, and in our culture, Hollywood and the music industry push acceptable culture and not the other way around.

Yup, I Know, I know, its confusing aint it? :P
Even more confusing - Shuster is comin' back like Imus and Jane (who apologized for her "proper" use of "c*nt" on morning T.V.!)

sevenoneeighty

Whoop That Trick Lyrics.

What (16x)

[Chorus]
Whoop that trick (16x)

[Djay]
I'ma make these suckers recognize I ain't playin' hoe
If you violate off the top trick you gotta go
I den held in a lot of shit and I'm bout to flip
Now I think it's time to show you bitches who you fuckin' with
DJay that's the name and I came to bring the pain
Ana on my chest got me bustin' at you lemon lames
You ain't know you fuckin' with a street nigga
From the gutta pimp tight slash drug dealer
Born and raised in the "M" Memphis Tennessee
Before it's said and done you bitches gon remember me
This only the beginning I got a lot to say
It's been a long time and you got hell to pay
Ain't no love hoe just bring it the door
I'm bar none let my nuts hang to the floor
So if you want some this is your death wish
Better come correct cause I came to break you off hoe

[Chorus]

... more of the same.

He's not talking about beating up "Johns".
Its bad for business.

pitu

As a former foul-mouthed punk who used to get into trouble with the grown-ups, I
a. understand the power of the transgressive and
b. am not so interested in picking at the lyrics of a youth culture, no matter how fucked up.
And yes, I'm not keeping up on pimpology. It's not my field or my interest.


But a hardcore song getting an award doesn't change the cultural landscape anymore than Harry Potter makes wizards out of your children.
News and culture/fiction are different arenas.
This topic was split from an election thread. We were talking about words used on tv, and how "bad" words play to a mass audience. And if a newscaster should be talking like that.
Anyway, that's the post I was responding to.

You're hung up on some song lyrics, because...well, I won't speculate. Googling lyrics don't really advance any point of view, and just gives this a kind of middle-aged-guy-reading-urban-dictionary creepy feel to me. You're counting the votes on the pimpology quiz? Just like the MSNBC guy, I don't think you're getting cool points.

sweet tea

pitu wrote:
But a hardcore song getting an award doesn't change the cultural landscape anymore than Harry Potter makes wizards out of your children.
News and culture/fiction are different arenas.
This topic was split from an election thread. We were talking about words used on tv, and how "bad" words play to a mass audience. And if a newscaster should be talking like that.

^this.

also, i hadn't noticed that there was any kind of consensus in US culture at large that the language of hip hop was appropriate.* quite the opposite, in fact, no matter how many awards, albums, etc., accrue.

*i also hadn't noticed that the "hollywood elite" of the academy were taken seriously by most people for their subtle political thought.

sevenoneeighty

pitu wrote: As a former foul-mouthed punk who used to get into trouble with the grown-ups, I
a. understand the power of the transgressive and
b. am not so interested in picking at the lyrics of a youth culture, no matter how fucked up.
And yes, I'm not keeping up on pimpology. It's not my field or my interest.


But a hardcore song getting an award doesn't change the cultural landscape anymore than Harry Potter makes wizards out of your children.News and culture/fiction are different arenas.
This topic was split from an election thread. We were talking about words used on tv, and how "bad" words play to a mass audience. And if a newscaster should be talking like that.
Anyway, that's the post I was responding to.

You're hung up on some song lyrics, because...well, I won't speculate. Googling lyrics don't really advance any point of view, and just gives this a kind of middle-aged-guy-reading-urban-dictionary creepy feel to me. You're counting the votes on the pimpology quiz? Just like the MSNBC guy, I don't think you're getting cool points.

Hey, no need to make ad hominem attacks... Just putting the record straight over a topic. Like a football game, which is never allowed to end on a defensive penalty, I cannot allow a thread to end on misinformation.
That seemed to offend your sensibilities and thus the personal stuff.

You presume to know my age and background but obviously you don't. (I'll take that as a huge compliment) I'm not quite middle aged and have some time before I get there - I hope I make it. I hope to also still know how to use the web. I grew up listening to the original hip hop and old school artists who I still like very much but that is a different topic.

Cool points? LOL-not at all, more like factual points.
I just have an opinion - you might not agree with it, but you don't have to try to put me in some category that's in your head. But I'm not sure I understand the age limit on using the web reference...

BTW: The idea of an otherwise educated, intelligent, independent women put in the strange position of "defending" pimps, creeps me out (and when broken down, that is what is happening). To each his or her own. The only conclusion I was trying to state in the whole thread was this:

Our culture has passed many thresholds in what is acceptable and not acceptable behavior and language. And while context can be a factor it is still not the definitive qualifier. The lines have been moved so much in many arenas that people, including reporters and other people in media, don't truly know where the "line" is anymore. And neither do people who are not on television. The rules are not clearly stated for anyone to follow and some people find themselves in trouble.

Secondly, not all people are treated equally within the same spectrum of rules. While some are punished for this behavior (Imus, Shuster) others are not punished (Oberman, Fonda) and the decision appeared to be more of a political one than definitive "rules" in place. I used the power of hip hop culture (which manifests itslef ALL facets of our culture) to demonstrate how this works with language. This language, because of its power, gets picked up in popular culture and becomes acceptable - even in its original meaning. Yes, Hollywood has influence too - big shocker and too easy to debate so I won't.

Third, Anyone who states there really are clear rules for usage, has not been paying attention to popular culture, which is heavily influenced by Hollywood culture (yes it is) or has some other motive other than factual information. Every attempt to show "clear rules" for using due diligence can be shown to be ineffective, hypocritical and even contradictory using examples - even other reporters. And these only further show my point that there IS absolutely confusion about the "proper" usage and context of these words.

But back to the original thread:

See, I don't think this Shuster guy was trying to hurt Chelsea's, he was just using the language that he hears from popular culture everyday and thought he was acceptable and okay to use. He was speaking the way people speak in our culture on TV, radio and movies everyday; We use the word in a variety of ways in this culture. It was just ironic, sad and even silly that so many people who otherwise ALSO use the SAME language (and even celebrate it to some extent) in similar contexts, were "shocked" and "outraged" by his use of it.

I just found that reaction to Shuster to be disingenuous and phony given the examples I laid out. But, as I said before, that is my opinion, but I think I made a pretty good case - and without ad hominem attacks too. :roll:

pitu

sweet tea wrote: [quote=pitu]
But a hardcore song getting an award doesn't change the cultural landscape anymore than Harry Potter makes wizards out of your children.
News and culture/fiction are different arenas.
This topic was split from an election thread. We were talking about words used on tv, and how "bad" words play to a mass audience. And if a newscaster should be talking like that.

^this.

also, i hadn't noticed that there was any kind of consensus in US culture at large that the language of hip hop was appropriate.* quite the opposite, in fact, no matter how many awards, albums, etc., accrue.

*i also hadn't noticed that the "hollywood elite" of the academy were taken seriously by most people for their subtle political thought.

SevenOneEighty wrote: BTW: The idea of an otherwise educated, intelligent, independent women put in the strange position of "defending" pimps, creeps me out (and when broken down, that is what is happening).

7180, I'm talking about language, not defending pimps.

We seem to agree that it's interesting to talk about words and how they are used. Within that discussion I see you doing nearly the same thing as Imus and Shuster - you want to use the words, and you don't want to talk about context or what is appropriate. You print up lyrics. I didn't see you making a case that addresses what I and sweet tea keep saying; what I'm reading above is variations on "Terrance Howard said it in a movie, so everyone gets to say it."

You asked why it's not okay to use those words and concepts, and I said what I think. I didn't attack you - I acknowledged that you were googling up sexist lyrics and saying "LOOK people use these words and win awards, so they are okay." It's an observation.
Sorry if calling you middle-aged is seen as an attack.

But if you were listening to old school the first time around...well, that's what I consider middle-aged.

p.s. there's a really good segment on this on NPR's On The Media. I heard it this morning on the radio, so it's on their site if you're interested. I'm trying to embed it here, but got no luck.
http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2008/02/15/03

Pimp My News
February 15, 2008

MSNBC’s David Shuster, while not the only reporter in trouble for using a p-word this week, is the only one suspended for doing so. The Huffington Post’s Rachel Sklar says Shuster’s suspension and NBC’s apologies may have more to do with Chris Matthews than a single inappropriate blunder.

Note, it's perfectly acceptable to say "Pimp My News" as the title of the segment. Understandistan?

jeffrey

pitu wrote: But if you were listening to old school the first time around...well, that's what I consider middle-aged.

I was 9 when Sugar Hill Gang came out with Rapper's Delight, which cracked me up. Loved all the Run-DMC stuff in the mid-80s.

But I'm 36 now.

Is that considered middle-aged these days? Just curious.

pitu

jeffrey wrote: [quote=pitu]But if you were listening to old school the first time around...well, that's what I consider middle-aged.

I was 9 when Sugar Hill Gang came out with Rapper's Delight, which cracked me up. Loved all the Run-DMC stuff in the mid-80s.

But I'm 36 now.

Is that considered middle-aged these days? Just curious.

Yes, that's what I consider the start of middle age.
I don't think 40 is the new 30, and life-span-wise I share your middle-age. Without baggage or prejudice.

jeffrey

Ah darn.

I was hoping that all the Genworth ads pushed the goalpost.



Oh well.