Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

wtgirl

Please...3% of the population is gifted. Not every kid in Brownstone Brooklyn.

As a parent, can I say I am so sick of all the gifted program chatter? Every white kid I know that tested got in. I don't know ONE kid who didn't make it in--and believe me, I would not label any of them "gifted". Why don't we call this program what it is: a white middle class entitlement program. I feel bad that all these up and coming schools will now be offering a "gifted" class which means every middle class kid will be segregated from his peers and the school will just stall. I just find this program incredibly antiquated. To label an ordinarily bright kid "gifted" is to put a lot of achievement pressure on someone so young and will give this young kid a feeling of superiority. What does that do to the other kids in the school NOT in the so called gifted class?

Maybe it is time to close down the gifted programs except for the truly gifted?

drano

Yeah, well - a lot of kids where I live have names like Oscar, Ezra, Jonah and Zoe. How many non-gifted kids do you know with names like that? Not many I'll bet.

daver

Subject: Re: Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

WTGirl wrote: Please...3% of the population is gifted. Not every kid in Brownstone Brooklyn.

As a parent, can I say I am so sick of all the gifted program chatter? Every white kid I know that tested got in. I don't know ONE kid who didn't make it in--and believe me, I would not label any of them "gifted". Why don't we call this program what it is: a white middle class entitlement program. I feel bad that all these up and coming schools will now be offering a "gifted" class which means every middle class kid will be segregated from his peers and the school will just stall. I just find this program incredibly antiquated. To label an ordinarily bright kid "gifted" is to put a lot of achievement pressure on someone so young and will give this young kid a feeling of superiority. What does that do to the other kids in the school NOT in the so called gifted class?

Maybe it is time to close down the gifted programs except for the truly gifted?

I haven't run into that. I have four kids in the NYC school system. One tested gifted and is in "gifted" classes. He isn't segregated from his peers or anything more than he was when he and his friends ended up in different classes before. They do more difficult work in those classes, which is good. Before he was in them his three brothers would be doing homework while he sat and goofed off (usually reading a book) because there wasn't anything to challenge him in school. Now he has homework to do too, and actually has to work to earn his grades. The other three work enough in the "regular" classes. One of them is actually in the "slower" classes for a couple subjects, one step up from "special ed" I guess. I like that there are different levels for different abilities. It keeps my one that does well without trying being challenged, and it keeps my one that has a LOT of trouble with math and such moving along enough that he doesn't give up and throw in the towel, which he used to do.

Your mileage may vary, I guess.

As far as your point about "superiority" and the kids not in gifted classes feeling bad, well WTF? There is always someone in life that is going to be better than you in something. Has more money, a better car, a bigger house. How do you deal with it? There is always someone that has less. If a kid gets a superiority complex then it is something he would probably be learning from his parents or friends anyway regardless of what class he/she were in. It is just one more thing to add to the bucket. The superiority complexes at my kids' schools seem to come more from the kids that wear very expensive jewelery to school and have "fancy whips" and go on tropical cruises for a week for their birthday than anything to do with academic skills. My kid initially fought against the "gifted" class because he didn't want to be labeled a "nerd", he doesn't get any sense of being better than anyone out of it. I find that adolescent kids don't put a whole hell of a lot of stock in who is in a higher class or gets better grades as to who is superior.

Once again, your mileage may vary.

queencallipygos

Subject: Re: Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

WTGirl wrote: What does that do to the other kids in the school NOT in the so called gifted class?

speaking as someone who was in a "gifted" class in Jr. High (albeit, in Eastern CT. in the 1980's), the other kids in the school who weren't in the class didn't feel inferior -- their biggest reaction was mainly, "ha ha, you have extra homework and we don't!"

I'm all for extra enrichment for kids who feel that the regular courseload isn't challenging enough. But, I also think that "gifted" kids are not the only ones who NEED it. Maybe this is a case of the schools having a hard time trying to raise NORMAL standards because they have to comply with the "no child left behind" policies, so maybe they're trying to sneak it all in as a "special program," and are opening the standards a little so as to get more kids in.

It's just hunch, but if that's actually what's happening, I say good.

wtgirl

Subject: Re: Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

daver wrote:
As far as your point about "superiority" and the kids not in gifted classes feeling bad, well WTF? There is always someone in life that is going to be better than you in something. Has more money, a better car, a bigger house. How do you deal with it? There is always someone that has less..

Totally agree if the kids generally were intellectually superior, then the other kids just have to deal or work harder. But I have to say, every kid I know this year tested in (every middle class white kid I know that is)....I thought the test was supposed to get harder? Instead they opened up more gifted classes.

I absolutely believe we need gifted classes for truly exceptionally bright kids. I think that is what Nest is for in the city. We don't need to segregate out the middle class kids from everyone else--I think that is called the suburbs?

daver

Subject: Re: Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

WTGirl wrote: But I have to say, every kid I know this year tested in (every middle class white kid I know that is)....I thought the test was supposed to get harder? Instead they opened up more gifted classes.

I absolutely believe we need gifted classes for truly exceptionally bright kids. I think that is what Nest is for in the city. We don't need to segregate out the middle class kids from everyone else--I think that is called the suburbs?

I would agree that segregating out the white middle class kids would be bad. I haven't personally seen it, and it isn't the case at my kids' school. But then they haven't been increasing the number of "gifted" classes or anything there either. I don't know where the line is in NYC exactly, but it has to be below 10%. If you have 40% of the school in "gifted" classes, which just happens to be all the white middle class kids, then yeah, I would guess that something is amiss there.

wtgirl

Subject: Re: Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

daver wrote: But then they haven't been increasing the number of "gifted" classes or anything there either. I don't know where the line is in NYC exactly, but it has to be below 10%. If you have 40% of the school in "gifted" classes, which just happens to be all the white middle class kids, then yeah, I would guess that something is amiss there.

Actually the DOB just opened up three more gifted classes in three up and coming schools.

I think the reason that all the middle class kids aren't in "gifted" classes is that a lot of parents opt out and don't test their kids for various reasons. Some kids are in good school zones and the zoned school is better then the District 15 gifted class. Some of the gifted classes have a conservative, curriculum. Some people think the amount of homework cuts into extra curricular activities like sports and music. Some people don't believe labeling kids "gifted" is a good idea (me).

Whatever....I just worry that these new G&T classes opening up in schools that are up and coming such as PS10 will quash the progress and segregate the kids out.

daver

Subject: Re: Gifted Schmifted programs--ENOUGH Already

WTGirl wrote: I think the reason that all the middle class kids aren't in "gifted" classes is that a lot of parents opt out and don't test their kids for various reasons.

Well, if that is the case there, then that is a load of crap. I know it isn't like that in my class. I just had a big fight with my 7th grader this AM because he DOESN'T want to be in those classes for next year. He called it the "nerd" class and doesn't like having to do extra projects and homework. Never mind that all the extra stuff takes him about as long as what his normal homework SHOULD be taking him. They are fairly strict about keeping up in the classes at his school, he has had several of his friends thrown out back into the "regular" classes for not maintaining the grades they are expected to. I don't have any problem with it working this way, but the way you are describing that the system works at your school is pretty retarded.

quig

WT Girl,

Only the top 3% are eligible for Nest etc... That is almost 1000 kids for 200 spots in the city, all located in Manhattan. Where are these kids supposed to go?

The top 10% are eligible for spots in local districts. I don't think these are necessary gifted, but smart kids that need to be challenged.
These classes are faster paced and more challenging so the kids aren't bored and disruptive.

wtgirl

quig wrote: WT Girl,

Only the top 3% are eligible for Nest etc... That is almost 1000 kids for 200 spots in the city, all located in Manhattan. Where are these kids supposed to go?
.

I absolutely agree there needs to be a special program for the top 3% with programs like Nest. All I am saying is how "gifted" or tough is this test if every middle class kid this year is eligible for district-wide G&T? Do you see my point? Not that exceptionally bright kids don't need to be challenged more then a regular classroom because they do and we need special programs like NEST. But VERY bright kids can be in a regular classroom--it benefits the entire school.

sweet tea

it does not necessarily "benefit the entire school to have VERY bright kids in the regular class". it may under some, carefully considered circumstances, but it more commonly means that the teacher has less time to give special attention to those who need extra help. (please don't start in on how the smarter kids should be doing the helping. once in a while, okay, builds confidence and all that, but they're supposed to be learning, too, not just tooling along with the lowest common denominator.)

of course, if it's true that gifted=white or middle class or whatever, than i see your point, but from what daver is saying, it doesn't sound like that's universally the case. my specific experiences with tracking are not with nyc schools.

sprite

And what exactly is the difference between "VERY bright" kids and "exceptionally bright" kids? Five IQ points? Ten?

My experiences with tracked classes are also outside NYC schools, and they were very small, so I agree it sounds suspicious to have every middle-class white kid labeled "gifted." But I also know many kids who were not in tracked classes in early grades that moved to accelerated classes in middle and high school and did as well or better than the other tracked students. A very bright kid who works hard is usually more successful than an exceptionally bright kid who doesn't; I see no reason those very bright kids should miss out on the more challenging classes if they can keep up.

brownie

Gotta say I think this is WAY more complex.

My daughter is white middle class w/ 2 Ivy League parents & did test prep & didn't make it into Gifted program, so we may flee across town where things are more heterogenous.

the chipster

WT girl? More like WTF?!!
I am too tired of discussing this issue in real time, but I will let Daver speak for me. I will just go off on a rant, and I despise the use of the race card when it comes to children's education. ugh.

wtgirl

The Chipster wrote: WT girl? More like WTF?!!
I am too tired of discussing this issue in real time, but I will let Daver speak for me. I will just go off on a rant, and I despise the use of the race card when it comes to children's education. ugh.

What exactly does that mean? Do you really think people of color have access to the same education as the majority of whites? If so then you need to look at District 17 for just ONE where there is not any decent elementary schools and the board of ed is instructed to dump juvenile delinquents at the middle school. District 17 has a high caribbean and african american population. When we are afraid to LOOK at the inequity of race then we are never going to make any changes and we will have some people able to afford to buy a good public education and some people who can't.