2008 Presidental Election: Obama v McCain

carnivore

boygabriel

Carnivore wrote: Foreign policy expert McCain apparently doesn't know the difference between Spain and Latin America...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1842156,00.html

Yeah, he doesn't know the difference between Sunni & Shia unless he has one of his handlers speaking for him. This alone should preclude him from being president during the current century.

How about this rule: you're not allowed to wage new wars in Muslim countries, or continue old ones, as long as you don't have intimate knowledge of possibly the most crucial aspect of modern Islam.

daver

Boygabriel wrote: How about this rule: you're not allowed to wage new wars in Muslim countries, or continue old ones, as long as you don't have intimate knowledge of possibly the most crucial aspect of modern Islam.

Um, so Obama has intimate knowledge of the most crucial aspect of modern Islam?

Perhaps not your best argument.

carnivore

daver wrote: Um, so Obama has intimate knowledge of the most crucial aspect of modern Islam?

Perhaps not your best argument.

Perhaps not when debating ignorant bigots. (Cue "Dueling Banjos" from Deliverance)

Even if Obama were Muslim, which there is absolutely no reason to think he is, that's no reason he shouldn't be President (or at least no more reason he shouldn't be President than being Christian would be).

daver

Carnivore wrote: Perhaps not when debating ignorant bigots. (Cue "Dueling Banjos" from Deliverance)

Even if Obama were Muslim, which there is absolutely no reason to think he is, that's no reason he shouldn't be President (or at least no more reason he shouldn't be President than being Christian would be).

Yeah, well, I don't think America is ready for a Muslim President. Sorry. Black? _That_ could happen. Female? Bring her on. Muslim? Good luck.

Not that I disagree with you, just injecting a little real world reality. MTV style, yo!


edit: Which makes me think, one way or the other, we are in all likelihood ending up with either a black president or a female vice president.

Kewl.


edit2: Squeal like a pig, city boy!

carnivore

Like I said, perhaps not as long as you're debating ignorant bigots. "What America is ready for" is not a legitimate argument, unless you're prepared to say that slavery was ok before Lincoln, or the anti miscegenation laws were ok until they were repealed, etc.

On a lighter note:

daver

Carnivore wrote: Like I said, perhaps not as long as you're debating ignorant bigots. "What America is ready for" is not a legitimate argument, unless you're prepared to say that slavery was ok before Lincoln, or the anti miscegenation laws were ok until they were repealed, etc.

I'm not saying that it is OK, I am saying that it _is_. Not an argument, just a statement of fact. Which is admittedly lame.

Obama wrote: Let's make clear what the facts are: I am a Christian. I have been sworn in with a Bible. I pledge allegiance [to the American flag] and lead the pledge of allegiance sometimes in the United States Senate when I'm presiding.

Obama communications director Robert Gibbs wrote: Senator Obama has never been a Muslim. As a six-year-old in Catholic school, he studied the catechism.

Obama campaign press release wrote: To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicago. Furthermore, the Indonesian school Obama attended in Jakarta is a public school that is not and never has been a Madrassa.

Etc.

carnivore

Perhaps, but that doesn't make McCain's ignorance of the basic divisions within Islam an asset. It's like a European leader from the 16th century not knowing the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Pathetic, really.

sweet tea

how is it a "statement of fact"? seems a lot like an opinion to me. it may be an opinion you can back up in one way or another, but it's not a fact in the way that "the difference between sunnis and shites is important in the middle east" is.

daver

sweet tea wrote: how is it a "statement of fact"? seems a lot like an opinion to me. it may be an opinion you can back up in one way or another, but it's not a fact in the way that "the difference between sunnis and shites is important in the middle east" is.

The statement of fact is that the US is not ready for a Muslim president. Which, OK, is an opinion. But it sounds _much_ better if I say that it is a statement of fact. I could probably back that up with a poll somewhere, but WTF. Who cares.

I would agree that "the difference between sunnis and shites is important in the middle east" is a fact. I would argue the opinion that McCain doesn't know the difference. Were I feeling randy.

carnivore

daver wrote: I would argue the opinion that McCain doesn't know the difference. Were I feeling randy.

No, that's a fact, not an opinion.

Proof:

daver

I can't see your video, even so, I declare it a gaffe rather than proof.

Obama doesn't know the difference between 10,000 and 12.

Last May, he claimed that Kansas tornadoes killed a whopping 10,000 people: “In case you missed it, this week, there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died — an entire town destroyed.” The actual death toll: 12.

Obama doesn't know that there are only fifty states.

Earlier this month in Oregon, he redrew the map of the United States: “Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

Obama doesn't know the difference between South Dakota and Iowa.

Last week, in front of a roaring Sioux Falls, South Dakota audience, Obama exulted: “Thank you Sioux City…I said it wrong. I’ve been in Iowa for too long. I’m sorry.”

Obama doesn't know where Kentucky is.

Explaining last week why he was trailing Hillary Clinton in Kentucky, Obama again botched basic geography: “Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it’s not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle.” On what map is Arkansas closer to Kentucky than Illinois?

Then of course there was the whole Arabic translators thing, and the drug farming in Iraq, etc.

carnivore

daver wrote: I can't see your video, even so, I declare it a gaffe rather than proof.

Obama doesn't know the difference between 10,000 and 12.

Last May, he claimed that Kansas tornadoes killed a whopping 10,000 people: “In case you missed it, this week, there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died — an entire town destroyed.” The actual death toll: 12.

Obama doesn't know that there are only fifty states.

Earlier this month in Oregon, he redrew the map of the United States: “Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

Obama doesn't know the difference between South Dakota and Iowa.

Last week, in front of a roaring Sioux Falls, South Dakota audience, Obama exulted: “Thank you Sioux City…I said it wrong. I’ve been in Iowa for too long. I’m sorry.”

Obama doesn't know where Kentucky is.

Explaining last week why he was trailing Hillary Clinton in Kentucky, Obama again botched basic geography: “Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it’s not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle.” On what map is Arkansas closer to Kentucky than Illinois?

Then of course there was the whole Arabic translators thing, and the drug farming in Iraq, etc.

The 10k thing may be a genuine error, but the other stuff are minor one-time gaffes, one of which he corrected himself on in your quote. The McCain confusion between Shiites and Sunnis has been systematic, occurring multiple times in different contexts. I just showed the one most readily available on video. This is not mis-speaking or a minor gaffe, like perhaps his confusing Spain and Latin America was. McCain genuinely does not know the difference.

carnivore

daver

Carnivore wrote: The 10k thing may be a genuine error, but the other stuff are minor one-time gaffes, one of which he corrected himself on in your quote. The McCain confusion between Shiites and Sunnis has been systematic, occurring multiple times in different contexts. I just showed the one most readily available on video. This is not mis-speaking or a minor gaffe, like perhaps his confusing Spain and Latin America was. McCain genuinely does not know the difference.

Well, like I said previously, I'm not convinced that he confused Spain and Latin America. Spain has been pretty dickish in recent years, and he could have meant what he said. Which would be just as bad, or possibly maybe worse.

As far as the Shiite/Sunni confusion, that is certainly something for voters to consider. Do I believe that it is going to cause a major policy problem? No. Do I believe that he will continue to stumble over it in speaking? Not if his people get their asses in gear and pound it into him. Which probably isn't either possible or going to happen, otherwise it seems that it would have already.

carnivore

Before people get all misty-eyed over the current revisionist view of Reagan as a great President, perhaps we should recall that the current banking and insurance disaster is a direct result of the deregulation of the industry that was begun by Reagan and continued by Republicans in the Federal government, with McCain as a major booster, ever since (although I will acknowledge that Bill Clinton was partially complicit).

daver

Carnivore wrote: Before people get all misty-eyed over the current revisionist view of Reagan as a great President, perhaps we should recall that the current banking and insurance disaster is a direct result of the deregulation of the industry that was begun by Reagan and continued by Republicans in the Federal government, with McCain as a major booster, ever since (although I will acknowledge that Bill Clinton was partially complicit).

Erm, I was bringing up Reagan as someone who couldn't seem to remember or recall jack shit, without serious consequences. As in akin to McCain's confoosion.

carnivore

Yeah, dude clearly was manifesting early signs of Alzheimer's dementia while still in office, as McCain is now.

boygabriel

daver wrote: [quote=Boygabriel]How about this rule: you're not allowed to wage new wars in Muslim countries, or continue old ones, as long as you don't have intimate knowledge of possibly the most crucial aspect of modern Islam.

Um, so Obama has intimate knowledge of the most crucial aspect of modern Islam?

Perhaps not your best argument.



No, actually. To any reasonable person it's an excellent argument.

But your response was quite cute, as usual.

daver

Carnivore wrote: Yeah, dude clearly was manifesting early signs of Alzheimer's dementia while still in office, as McCain is now.

And look where it got him, beloved ex-president.

I see this sort of thing (as well as his recurring serious health problems) as good, because it makes it _way_ easier to call into question Palin's credentials (or lack thereof) because she would be at a significantly increased chance of ascending to the presidency, or at least taking an active role ala Cheney as opposed to. Um. Dan Quayle. Or somebunny.

daver

Boygabriel wrote: No, actually. To any reasonable person it's an excellent argument.

You say reasonable, I say Vodka. Potato! Er, Potatoe! Unfortunately for you, there are wide swaths of the country that have an entirely different opinion as to what reasonable is. And to many of them, it doesn't take an understanding of modern Islam to condemn it as terrorist and evil.

Boygabriel wrote: But your response was quite cute, as usual.

Beware! With great cuteness, comes great responsibility...

boygabriel

daver wrote: Unfortunately for you, there are wide swaths of the country that have an entirely different opinion as to what reasonable is. And to many of them, it doesn't take an understanding of modern Islam to condemn it as terrorist and evil.

Nothing I don't already know.

That doesn't make it any less of a brightly burning red flag that McCain lacks basic understanding of the societies which he's declared our mortal enemy for life and which he hopes to defeat on the battlefield.

To anyone who thinks someone this uninformed is a good candidate to fight this fight, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell them. And if they act now, I'll throw in a war they can enlist for right now.

carnivore

carnivore

Great article about Gramm, McCain and the roots of the current economic crisis:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/a-nation-of-village-idiot_b_127340.html

carnivore

Data from a clever new study reveals the surge may not have been as effective as advertised:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-09/uoc--uso091708.php

boygabriel

Carnivore wrote: Data from a clever new study reveals the surge may not have been as effective as advertised...

...by sevenoneeighty/the media/republicans

...you know what else about the Surge? there's been no political progress.

no political progress = no point

carnivore

carnivore

carnivore

SNL making fun of ridiculous McCain ads:

carnivore

Great round table discussion on ABC: