Post Your VP Debate Comments Here

daver

Boygabriel wrote: [quote=daver]I really don't think that one was. I do think that she was unaware that she could nail him on the health dereg thing, true, but I also think that she was dogged single tracking on the tax thing. Probably a coached thing would be my guess. Lord knows she isn't to spry on her feet with the whole *thinking* thing.

except she never came back to answer the question, which is my point.

If I have time I'll look through the transcript, but something tells me you'll have justification for her not answering the questions.
As far as justification, the question was regarding the sub-prime mortgage meltdown. The middle class tax stuff that Biden introduced was actually a reasonable tangent for sure. The health care thing, not so much. And then...

IFILL wrote: OK, our time is up here. We've got to move to the next question. Senator Biden, we want to talk about taxes, let's talk about taxes.

As far as coming back to Biden's health care comment that needed an answer...

BIDEN wrote: As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry deregulate it and let the free market move like he did for the banking industry.

...it is answered here...
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/out_of_context_on_health_care.html
...but she definitely should have knocked that one out of the park. My thought? It probably wasn't on the cram sheet she got rammed into her head. But like I said, that stuff she stuck with was more in keeping with the topic anyhow.

boygabriel

Here are a few parts of the debate that caught my eye where Palin basically didn't answer the question. I paraphrased/summarized/snarked a lot. Paraphrasing in parentheses:

Ifill: The House of Representatives this week passed a bill, a big bailout bill -- or didn't pass it, I should say. The Senate decided to pass it, and the House is wrestling with it still tonight.

As America watches these things happen on Capitol Hill, Sen. Biden, was this the worst of Washington or the best of Washington that we saw play out?

Biden: (neither best nor worst, just a referendum on the last 8 years, Congress is in a tough spot, Barack has a plan.)

Palin: (John McCain is a maverick)

!!!!

Ifill: Sen. Biden, how, as vice president, would you work to shrink this gap of polarization which has sprung up in Washington, which you both have spoken about here tonight?

Biden: (I have a history of reaching across the aisle; (lists legislation))

Palin: (Obama votes on party lines; John McCain is a maverick)

!!!

Ifill: who's at fault for the crisis

Palin: (lenders)

Biden: (deregulation is to blame; McCain wants to do the same thing to healthcare)

Biden didn't really answer

IFILL: Governor, please if you want to respond to what he said about Sen. McCain's comments about health care?

PALIN: I would like to respond about the tax increases...

yikes

Biden: Gwen, the governor did not answer the question about deregulation, did not answer the question of defending John McCain about not going along with the deregulation, letting Wall Street run wild. He did support deregulation almost across the board. That's why we got into so much trouble.

PALIN: "I'm still on the tax thing because I want to correct you on that again...and I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear." (Talks about lowering taxes, doesn't mention the word 'regulation' once.)

double yikes

(Ifill: Is taxing the rich class warfare?)

Biden: (No)
Palin: (smaller govt is better)

ugh.

Ifill: What promises -- given the events of the week, the bailout plan, all of this, what promises have you and your campaigns made to the American people that you're not going to be able to keep?

Biden: Foreign aid. also: We're not going to support the $300 billion tax cut that they have for corporate America and the very wealthy. We're not going to support another $4 billion tax cut for ExxonMobil.

PALIN: Well, the nice thing about running with John McCain is I can assure you he doesn't tell one thing to one group and then turns around and tells something else to another group, including his plans that will make this bailout plan, this rescue plan, even better.

not an answer, Ifill follows up:

IFILL: So, Governor, as vice president, there's nothing that you have promised as a candidate that you would -- that you wouldn't take off the table because of this financial crisis we're in?

PALIN: There is not.

Biden: There are ways to help people now. And there -- ways that we're offering are not being supported by -- by the Bush administration nor do I believe by John McCain and Gov. Palin.

PALIN: That is not so, but because that's just a quick answer, I want to talk about, again, my record on energy versus your ticket's energy ticket, also.

yikes

...

IFILL: Has this administration's policy [on Israel] been an abject failure, as the senator says, Governor?

PALIN: No, I do not believe that it has been. But I'm so encouraged to know that we both love Israel, and I think that is a good thing to get to agree on, Sen. Biden. I respect your position on that.

No, in fact, when we talk about the Bush administration, there's a time, too, when Americans are going to say, "Enough is enough with your ticket," on constantly looking backwards, and pointing fingers, and doing the blame game.

There have been huge blunders in the war. There have been huge blunders throughout this administration, as there are with every administration.

But for a ticket that wants to talk about change and looking into the future, there's just too much finger-pointing backwards to ever make us believe that that's where you're going.

Positive change is coming, though. Reform of government is coming. We'll learn from the past mistakes in this administration and other administrations.

And we're going to forge ahead with putting government back on the side of the people and making sure that our country comes first, putting obsessive partisanship aside.

That's what John McCain has been known for in all these years. He has been the maverick. He has ruffled feathers.

But I know, Sen. Biden, you have respected for them that, and I respect you for acknowledging that. But change is coming.

super-extra yikes

IFILL: Senator, you have quite a record, this is the next question here, of being an interventionist. You argued for intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo, initially in Iraq and Pakistan and now in Darfur, putting U.S. troops on the ground. Boots on the ground. Is this something the American public has the stomach for?

Biden: (yes)

Palin: (you flip flopped on Iraq, I divested from Sudan)

::shoots self in head::

IFILL: Is there a line that should be drawn about when we decide to go in?

Biden: (when a country commits genocide, etc. McCain supported going into Iraq, I didn't.)

Palin: (you supported McCain's policy of going into Iraq. (no mention of intervention thresholds))

Biden: I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it's like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They're looking for (economic) help. They're looking for help. They're not looking for more of the same.

IFILL: Governor?

PALIN: People aren't looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years. (talks about maverickness)

she's a joke.
Here's a transcript

boygabriel

Add to all of this: the problem isn't that she avoided all these questions at first (perhaps as you say, to address previous topics), but she basically never came back to them.

ps sarah

Ifill: "Did you want respond to what he said about Senator Mccain's comments about healthcare?"
Palin: "I'd like to respond about the tax increases..."
Biden: "...but if you notice Gwen, the governor did not answer the question about deregulation, did not answer the question defending John McCain about not going along with the deregulation and letting Wall St run wild. He did support deregulation almost across the board. That's why we got in so much trouble"
Ifill: "Would you like to have an opportunity to answer that?"
Palin: "Oh I'm still on the tax thing because I want to correct you on that again and I want to let you know what I did as a mayor and a governor. And I may not answer the questions the way that either the moderator or you want to hear, but I'm going to talk straight to the American people and let 'em know my track record also..."

daver

Ifill: The House of Representatives this week passed a bill, a big bailout bill -- or didn't pass it, I should say. The Senate decided to pass it, and the House is wrestling with it still tonight.

As America watches these things happen on Capitol Hill, Sen. Biden, was this the worst of Washington or the best of Washington that we saw play out?

Biden: (neither best nor worst, just a referendum on the last 8 years, Congress is in a tough spot, Barack has a plan.)

Palin: (John McCain is a maverick)

Well, more like she said that McCain is pushing hard for "reform" and has been for two years. But it _was_ total bullshit doublespeak and Biden's answer was tight.

Ifill: Sen. Biden, how, as vice president, would you work to shrink this gap of polarization which has sprung up in Washington, which you both have spoken about here tonight?

Biden: (I have a history of reaching across the aisle; (lists legislation))

Palin: (Obama votes on party lines; John McCain is a maverick)

Eh. I agree with Ifill that neither answered what they would do as VP. Biden answered that he had reached across the aisle as a Senator, Palin correctly pointed out that McCain has been more likely to reach across the aisle than Obama. She didn't point out that he was more likely than Biden as well, which also be true.

IFILL: Governor, please if you want to respond to what he said about Sen. McCain's comments about health care?

PALIN: I would like to respond about the tax increases...

This one doesn't bug me, they weren't on health care, she was answering the question asked.

Biden: Gwen, the governor did not answer the question about deregulation, did not answer the question of defending John McCain about not going along with the deregulation, letting Wall Street run wild. He did support deregulation almost across the board. That's why we got into so much trouble.

PALIN: "I'm still on the tax thing because I want to correct you on that again...and I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear." (Talks about lowering taxes, doesn't mention the word 'regulation' once.)

This one wasn't about health care, and may show the script a bit... She did speak to the point, and the moderators questions. She was unable or unwilling to answer Biden's specific charges. Go Biden.

(Ifill: Is taxing the rich class warfare?)

Biden: (No)
Palin: (smaller govt is better)

I don't agree with your summations here. The question was (Is raising taxes on the rich class warfare?) Um, ya nailed Biden. Palin was (yes). I thought they both answered this one.

Ifill: What promises -- given the events of the week, the bailout plan, all of this, what promises have you and your campaigns made to the American people that you're not going to be able to keep?

Biden: Foreign aid. also: We're not going to support the $300 billion tax cut that they have for corporate America and the very wealthy. We're not going to support another $4 billion tax cut for ExxonMobil.

PALIN: Well, the nice thing about running with John McCain is I can assure you he doesn't tell one thing to one group and then turns around and tells something else to another group, including his plans that will make this bailout plan, this rescue plan, even better.

not an answer, Ifill follows up:

IFILL: So, Governor, as vice president, there's nothing that you have promised as a candidate that you would -- that you wouldn't take off the table because of this financial crisis we're in?

PALIN: There is not.

Um. So she directly answered then? I'm not sure how this qualifies as not answering the question. She said that she and McCain plan to keep EVERY promise that has been made. Lol. Fat chance. Anyway. She answered, at least. No new taxes, ya know.

Biden: There are ways to help people now. And there -- ways that we're offering are not being supported by -- by the Bush administration nor do I believe by John McCain and Gov. Palin.

PALIN: That is not so, but because that's just a quick answer, I want to talk about, again, my record on energy versus your ticket's energy ticket, also.

Eh. You left out Ifill's question: "Governor Palin, is that so?" She answered the question directly and went back to something else. Which Biden also did during the debate, FWIW.

IFILL: Has this administration's policy [on Israel] been an abject failure, as the senator says, Governor?

PALIN: No, I do not believe that it has been. But I'm so encouraged to know that we both love Israel, and I think that is a good thing to get to agree on, Sen. Biden. I respect your position on that.

No, in fact, when we talk about the Bush administration, there's a time, too, when Americans are going to say, "Enough is enough with your ticket," on constantly looking backwards, and pointing fingers, and doing the blame game.

There have been huge blunders in the war. There have been huge blunders throughout this administration, as there are with every administration.

But for a ticket that wants to talk about change and looking into the future, there's just too much finger-pointing backwards to ever make us believe that that's where you're going.

Positive change is coming, though. Reform of government is coming. We'll learn from the past mistakes in this administration and other administrations.

And we're going to forge ahead with putting government back on the side of the people and making sure that our country comes first, putting obsessive partisanship aside.

That's what John McCain has been known for in all these years. He has been the maverick. He has ruffled feathers.

But I know, Sen. Biden, you have respected for them that, and I respect you for acknowledging that. But change is coming.

That may be a "super-extra yikes," but it was also a direct answer.

IFILL: Senator, you have quite a record, this is the next question here, of being an interventionist. You argued for intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo, initially in Iraq and Pakistan and now in Darfur, putting U.S. troops on the ground. Boots on the ground. Is this something the American public has the stomach for?

Biden: (yes)

Palin: (you flip flopped on Iraq, I divested from Sudan)

She armchair quarterbacked, and spoke to her experience. Which is telling.

IFILL: Is there a line that should be drawn about when we decide to go in?

Biden: (when a country commits genocide, etc. McCain supported going into Iraq, I didn't.)

Palin: (you supported McCain's policy of going into Iraq. (no mention of intervention thresholds))

Well, here we go. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't. Earlier we castigated Palin for not straying from Ifill's question to answer Biden's argument. Now, when she _has_ strayed from Ifill's question in order to directly answer Biden's argument, we'll castigate her for that. Oh well.

Biden: I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it's like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They're looking for (economic) help. They're looking for help. They're not looking for more of the same.

IFILL: Governor?

PALIN: People aren't looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years. (talks about maverickness)

Not quite. Biden says that the people need change, Palin says that McCain will give it to them. Obviously you would disagree with that, but I don think that she answered completely.

she's a joke.

OK, so what do you get when you cross someone who is against pork-barrel spending with someone who is for pork-barrel spending?

That’s not possible. Oh, wait, yes it is: Sarah Palin, Governor of Alaska.

hahlasidheonfjbwgv

The original Bridge to Nowhere: Canada!

flux

Palin won! /

daver

There is no spoon!

Er, there is no winner!

But all of America gets to be the losers!

Yay!

carnivore

flux wrote: Palin won! /

I'm sure people like this think so:

cccc

Here's factcheck.org's recap of the debate.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

daver

cccc wrote: Here's factcheck.org's recap of the debate.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Thx for the link!

carnivore

From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/02/AR2008100203046.html

18 wrote: Hockey Mom on Thin Ice[/size]

By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Friday, October 3, 2008; Page A23

Early in last night's vice-presidential debate, Sarah Palin said that she might not answer the questions as moderator Gwen Ifill posed them. This was the Alaska governor's way of saying she was going to stick to the talking points she had stuffed into her head, no matter what the subject.

When Palin described John McCain's health-care plan, she talked about his offer of a $5,000 tax credit so families could buy insurance. She failed to mention that McCain would pay for the credit by taxing existing insurance benefits. Democratic vice-presidential nominee Joe Biden -- politely -- pounced on her omission, warning that McCain's plan could lead millions to lose their insurance coverage. Palin didn't come back to defend her running mate.

Nor did she come back when Biden challenged her false claims about how many times Barack Obama had voted for tax increases. Palin just plowed forward, piling one attack on top of another, with leavening references to "Joe Six-Pack" and "hockey moms."

Oh, yes, she did correct Biden on one thing. When he said the Republican energy slogan is "drill, drill, drill," she quickly reminded him that "the chant is drill, baby, drill." Thanks for clearing that up.

Last night's debate took place at the moment when a majority of American voters had decided that Palin was unprepared to be president if she were called upon to assume the office. Surveys by The Post and ABC News and by the Pew Research Center both found that doubts about Palin have risen sharply since the beginning of September.

The key to understanding how McCain chose Palin as his running mate was provided by the New York Times last weekend when it described an episode in which he "tossed $100 chips around a hot craps table." Americans are increasingly uneasy about the gamble they might take by putting Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Expectations for Palin were so low that the mere fact that she managed to keep talking and to keep assailing Obama will be rated as a great victory by McCain's lieutenants. But it was Biden who knew what he was talking about, who could engage in argument and who showed he actually understood the issues. In recent interviews with CBS anchor Katie Couric, Palin came off as profoundly uninformed, as someone who had given little thought to the issues that will matter. Nothing Palin did last night changed that. Those rooting for her were relieved. Those who doubted her readiness going in were not persuaded by her endless repetition of the word "maverick."

Palin has also brought out the very worst in McCain, forcing him to -- and I do not use this word lightly -- lie about her. In an interview broadcast Wednesday, National Public Radio's Steve Inskeep asked McCain if there would be "an occasion where you could imagine turning to Governor Palin for advice in a foreign policy crisis?"

McCain replied: "I've turned to her advice many times in the past. I can't imagine turning to Senator Obama or Senator Biden, because they've been wrong."

" Many times in the past?" McCain met Palin only twice before he selected her. What McCain said could not be true. And would anyone who listened to her last night really consult Palin on foreign policy?

This week, McCain's backers signaled their fears that Palin would fail by trying to discredit the debate in advance. Although it has been known at least since July that Gwen Ifill was writing a book on "Politics and Race in the Age of Obama," the usual right-wing attack squad waited until two days before the debate to mount a campaign to the effect that Ifill's book project turned her into a biased moderator. In her measured questioning, Ifill showed that the attack was nonsense.

The core issue, of course, is the contrast between how Obama and McCain chose their running mates. Say what you will about Joe Biden -- and last night, he was far from being either the gaffe machine or the windbag so many predicted would appear on stage -- no one loses sleep at the idea of his being in the Oval Office. Obama picked a vice president more likely to help him govern the country than win the chance to do so.

As for McCain, he found himself in a political hole and threw the dice with Palin. At the time of her selection, voters were often compared with "American Idol" watchers who put personality and stage presence above everything else. But it turns out that Americans take the presidency very seriously. And surviving 90 minutes on a stage with Biden did not transform Palin into a plausible president.

stacey

IFILL: Governor and senator, I want you both to respond to this. Secretaries of state Baker, Kissinger, Powell, they have all advocated some level of engagement with enemies. Do you think these former secretaries of state are wrong on that?

PALIN: No and Dr. Henry Kissinger especially. I had a good conversation with him recently. And he shared with me his passion for diplomacy. And that's what John McCain and I would engage in also. But again, with some of these dictators who hate America and hate what we stand for, with our freedoms, our democracy, our tolerance, our respect for women's rights, those who would try to destroy what we stand for cannot be met with just sitting down on a presidential level as Barack Obama had said he would be willing to do. That is beyond bad judgment. That is dangerous.

I could not believe that she, of all people, used that line

whynot_31

At the moment, the country respects women's rights. She's just among those who believe that women have too many rights.

She is joined by her fellow republicans, who believe we presently have too many freedoms, too much democracy, and too much tolerance.

...Bush did the best he could to erode these freedoms. McCain and Palin promise to do better.

seespaces

The thing that always annoys me is, the Democrat always answers the question and lets the emotional answer or rejoinder go unsaid; the Republicans go for the rejoinder 4-5 times in the course of the debate. The Dem hammers a point, and the Rep makes the (surprisingly effective) reply of" How dare you accuse me of that?! That's an outrage!"

If the Reps fight unfairly, you'd never know it to watch the way the Dems just take it.

whynot_31

it is all an excercise in labeling your opponent as being something that you yourself are.

That way, you can say "hey, I called you that first. You can't call me that"

...it would be funny if I wasn't worried about people falling for it.

sweet tea

from http://www.electoral-vote.com/

The first polls of the Vice-Presidential debate are already in. A CNN poll run by Opinion Research shows that 51% of the voters think Joe Biden did the best job at the debate and 36% thought Sarah Palin did the best job. As to beating the expectations (which both parties were trying furiously to set as low as possible), both did. Eighty-four percent said Palin did better than expected and 64% said Biden did better than expected. But debating skills and beating artificially low expectations don't really matter. What matters is whether the candidate is qualified to be President should the need arise. On this score, Biden clearly won as 87% said Biden is qualified to be President and only 42% said Palin is.

CBS also did a quickie poll among uncommitted voters. In this one, 46% said Biden won and only 21% said Palin won. In terms of being knowledgeable about the issues, 98% think Biden is and 66% think Palin is. On the key question of whether the candidate could be an effective President, 91% said Biden could be and only 44% said Palin could be, similar to the CNN poll.

CNN ran a focus group in Ohio, where participants could rate what they were hearing in real time. Biden's score zoomed through the roof when he talked about his wife and daughter dying in a traffic accident many years ago.** In general, his responses scored well, better than Palin's, especially when she defended McCain. Republican pollster Frank Luntz ran a focus group for Fox and said that Palin did very well. But only three members of his group said they were more likely to vote for McCain as a result of the debate. Political Wire has collected some reactions to the debate from the blogosphere.

**nice work bringing that one up, palin.

carnivore

Sarah Palin Godwin'ed the debate:

At one point, during a long and detailed discussion of foreign policy, Sarah Palin said: "We won't allow another Holocaust."

The sentiment that resounded in our room of debate-watchers was: "We hope nobody would."

--Hana R. Alberts

It would have been hilarious if Ifill had declared the debate over after that.

modsquad

YAWN,
I prefer the "deballing" the girls were giving Palin at the beginning of this thread to the quoting, requoting, and rerequoting of minutia from the transcript by all the political Brahmans. Even the networks were saying this debate has a half-life of 24 hrs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Brahman_%28EMAPA%29_110307_REFON_2.jpg
WARNING GENITALIA! :^o

witch-king

here are my favorite quotes from Palin's debate performance

"PALIN: One thing that Americans do at this time, also, though, is let's commit ourselves just every day American people, Joe Six Pack, hockey moms across the nation, I think we need to band together and say never again. Never will we be exploited and taken advantage of again by those who are managing our money and loaning us these dollars. We need to make sure that we demand from the federal government strict oversight of those entities in charge of our investments and our savings and we need also to not get ourselves in debt. Let's do what our parents told us before we probably even got that first credit card. Don't live outside of our means. We need to make sure that as individuals we're taking personal responsibility through all of this. It's not the American peoples fault that the economy is hurting like it is, but we have an opportunity to learn a heck of a lot of good lessons through this and say never again will we be taken advantage of"

The first sentence is appalling, but, to her credit, she improves during the answer. In short, she's saying that beer drinkers and hockey moms should not overspend (on beer?).

This is my favorite response:

"PALIN: People aren't looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years.

He's taken shots left and right from the other party and from within his own party, because he's had to take on his own party when the time was right, when he recognized it was time to put partisanship aside and just do what was right for the American people.

That's what I've done as governor, also, take on my own party, when I had to, and work with both sides of the aisle, in my cabinet, appointing those who would serve regardless of party, Democrats, independents, Republicans, whatever it took to get the job done.

Also, John McCain's maverick position that he's in, that's really prompt up to and indicated by the supporters that he has. Look at Lieberman, and Giuliani, and Romney, and Lingle, and all of us who come from such a diverse background of -- of policy and of partisanship, all coming together at this time, recognizing he is the man that we need to leave -- lead in these next four years, because these are tumultuous times.

We have got to win the wars. We have got to get our economy back on track. We have got to not allow the greed and corruption on Wall Street anymore.

And we have not got to allow the partisanship that has really been entrenched in Washington, D.C., no matter who's been in charge. When the Republicans were in charge, I didn't see a lot of progress there, either. When the Democrats, either, though, this last go- around for the last two years.

Change is coming. And John McCain is the leader of that reform."

"We've got to win the wars": this reminds me of something one might hear at a pep rally.

"Also, John McCain's maverick position that he's in, that's really prompt up to and indicated by the supporters that he has": what a mess. What is she trying to say?

"Look at Lieberman, and Giuliani, and Romney, and Lingle, and all of us who come from such a diverse background of -- of policy and of partisanship...": A diverse background of "partisanship"?

"Change is coming. And John McCain is the leader of that reform." What reform?

I've heard people say that Palin "won" the debate. How is that possible?

MOD

modsquad wrote: YAWN,
I prefer the "deballing" the girls were giving Palin at the beginning of this thread to the quoting, requoting, and rerequoting of minutia from the transcript by all the political Brahmans. Even the networks were saying this debate has a half-life of 24 hrs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Brahman_%28EMAPA%29_110307_REFON_2.jpg
WARNING GENITALIA! :^o

:P

carnivore

jeffrey

bellaja

Jeffrey - that was both awesome AND scary!

boygabriel

Carnivore wrote:

post over.

daver

Lol, Biden would probably disagree with having "judgement" - nice spelling BTW. I suppose the English version is acceptable, but for an American election...

Anyway.

Biden himself claims to have a problem with passion and saying things that he really shouldn't have.

FWIW.