Ludicrous lawsuit against Bruce Ratner

dailyheights

Is this really the first post about the lawsuit against Bruce Ratner?

This editorial is a bit of an extreme view. Had it appeared in the New York Post, it would be easy enough to dismiss outright... but this comes from the the Daily News, which in the past has been fairly sympathetic to the anti-Ratner crowd:

Bounce this suit

"Opponents of the planned $3.5 billion Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn have stooped to a new and ludicrous low by filing a futile and all-too-predictable lawsuit in state Supreme Court to try to stop developer Bruce Ratner from demolishing six vacant, partially collapsed buildings that he already owns..."

"Opponents appear determined to sue early and often to tie him up in litigation and are even trying raise a nonissue: the fact that an ESDC environmental lawyer involved in the project once worked for Ratner..." Read more...

teddyballgame

This lawsuit seems far more legit than the Ludacris lawsuit against Ratner.

jack krohn

Actually, I'd expect the New York Post, being a conservative paper, to oppose the Atlantic Yards project due to its use of eminent domain. No Land Grab has run some pieces from several right-wing publications, including City Journal. Since then, I've been expecting to see George Will or Pat Buchanan at the next Develop Don't Destroy rally.

ratnerville4ever

The Daily News editorial board, who wrote this, has been opposed to Ratnerville opponents. The reporters have done reporting. The editorial board led by project proponent Errol Louis, has only written venomous, stupid, antagonistic, uninformed folklore.

jack krohn

One good point made by Erroll Louis is that the web sites of stadium opponents endlessly cross-reference one another. On many days, No Land Grab is little more than a link to the TimesRatnerReport, Brooklyn Views, and DDDB.

danaeo

Jack Krohn wrote: One good point made by Erroll Louis is that the web sites of stadium opponents endlessly cross-reference one another. On many days, No Land Grab is little more than a link to the TimesRatnerReport, Brooklyn Views, and DDDB.

Errol Louis's point may be true, but it's completely irrelevant. Why is this a problem? The purpose of No Land Grab is to archive press (both positive and negative) about the project and Brooklyn Views and Times Ratner offer a completely different analyses.

Brooklyn Views is worth checking out for its cogent short analyses of architectural and land use issues.

qtrain

According to the Times,

State law forbids developers to alter the site of any proposed project until it has been approved, but the law makes an exception for "emergency actions."

The project has not yet been approved, so FCR claims emergency actions are necessary, and refuses independent review. A court challenge is hardly frivolous.

jack krohn

Louis's point was that by cross-referencing each other's web sites, opponents were able to exaggerate the size of the opposition.

But your point about No Land Grab archiving articles in well-taken. Even though I disagree with their stance, I still consider them the best source for up-to-date information on this topic.

ratnerville4ever

Jack Krohn wrote: Louis's point was that by cross-referencing each other's web sites, opponents were able to exaggerate the size of the opposition.

But your point about No Land Grab archiving articles in well-taken. Even though I disagree with their stance, I still consider them the best source for up-to-date information on this topic.

Jack, Errol's point is meaningless. All blogs and websites make best efforts to link to each other. that is the nature of the web and blog world.
the idea that websites linking to each other is a barometer of the opposition is absurd.

jack krohn

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as I think that Louis makes a good point about the size and strength of the opposition. Every time there is a public event, attendance is often below 75 people. Even the fundraiser held several months back attracted only 400 or so people. To me, that is minor. IMO, most people, whether they are for or against this, consider it a done deal.

And yet another example of the cross-referencing: this thread is mentioned on No Land Grab. BTW, one thing I dislike about that site is it does not have a comments section. I really wish they would, as I think there could be some interesting debates, much like this site, or Brownstoner or Curbed.

ratnerville4ever

Nice bit of folklore there, Jack.

bill c

qtrain wrote: According to the Times,

State law forbids developers to alter the site of any proposed project until it has been approved, but the law makes an exception for "emergency actions."

The project has not yet been approved, so FCR claims emergency actions are necessary, and refuses independent review. A court challenge is hardly frivolous.

absolutely right. this is litigation 101. not only is such a suit far from frivolous but a failure to act by FRC oppenents would serve to undermine their position in any future suits to prevent the development. the daily news board, who presumably know some real lawyers, are being completely disingenuous.

jack krohn

"Nice bit of folklore there, Jack."

Deny, deny, deny!

When demolition begins later this year, I'll be able to say, "I told you so".

ratnerville4ever

deny, deny, deny is right.

Jack, perhaps the biggest grassroots movement when it comes to development issues over the past two years has been the opposition to the Ratner plan.

not sure what your barometer is or what you've seen in other community fights like this, but a 400 person fundraiser is very impressive.

i understand that you don't agree with that. but I think most would.

pitu

ratnerville4ever wrote: Jack, perhaps the biggest grassroots movement when it comes to development issues over the past two years has been the opposition to the Ratner plan.

not sure what your barometer is or what you've seen in other community fights like this, but a 400 person fundraiser is very impressive.

i understand that you don't agree with that. but I think most would.

I have to agree - it's not ACTUP 1989, but getting 400 busy NYers to haul their asses out for a local issue is nothing to sneeze at.

escap

I agree that nolandgrab is a great source for information on the Atlantic Yards project. One question, though--isn't nolandgrab essentially the exact same organization as dddb? I'm pretty sure that at least those two, and most likely FFFP, are all run by exactly the same individual. So in that case, cross referencing each other is certainly redundant.

raulism

escap wrote: I agree that nolandgrab is a great source for information on the Atlantic Yards project. One question, though--isn't nolandgrab essentially the exact same organization as dddb? I'm pretty sure that at least those two, and most likely FFFP, are all run by exactly the same individual. So in that case, cross referencing each other is certainly redundant.

I know the people behind all of those sites, and different people do each site. There are some important distinctions between them. DDDb is a non-profit, so it does not endorse candidates, though it can inform people on where politicians stand. Unlike the Ratner-funded groups, DDDb is very careful about how it spends money and whom we organize for.

NoLandGrab can be much more partisan. FFFP is, well, FFFP. Lots of overlap in the crowds, but different individuals. We are all separate people, though people often confuse me with Dan Goldstein. I guess all white Jewish PH guys look the same. I'm the one with a facial hair that shaves, he's the one without facial hair who doesn't shave.

The support for DDDb is pretty broad. The story I like to repeat is that my block association used to split 50-50 about Ratner, but we met in October to discuss the Ratner proposal, and everyone who wanted to speak spoke at length in opposition. More recently, like, uh, tonight, there was a meeting put on by DDDb in Park Slope, and a few hundred people showed up. There are lots of people who do not write on blogs, and my impression is that some of non-DDDb residents are MORE vehement in their opposition to Ratner. On the other side, a friend of mine recently went to a BUILD meeting, and he said that the only concern of the people who attended was jobs, and I have spoke people who have gotten tickets from FCRC to go to Nets games, and they are pretty cynical about Ratner's intentions as well.

This is not to say that there is not some support for Ratner, but I am fired up by the pro-community development/anti-Ratner movement. I think our efforts to gain local support has been much more effective than Ratner and his millions of dollars. It's quite exciting. And we keep growing- remember there used to be pro-Ratner listserves?

Okay, I'm rambling a bit, but you get the idea.

ratnerville4ever

as raulism said:

DDDB is an organization with a website but no blog.
NoLandGrab is a blog.
FansForFairPlay is an organization with a blog.

3 different people run the websites.

danaeo

DDDB is the most public face of the opposition, but there are dozens of community groups which are, if not outright opposed, very concerned, about this project. Boerum Hill Association, Pratt Area Community Council, Fifth Avenue Community, several block associations in PH, among others were not formed yesterday and have large consitituencies. A lot of these groups are not holding public meetings, but are lobbying elected officials, and a number of them have signed on to the lawsuit.

I don't get the impression that any of these groups think they are going to stop the project - or even the demolition of these building - with this particular lawsuit. (Yes, Jack, you'll be proved right, which seems to be what's most important to you in this discussion). The point is that the law suit is an attempt to hold the developer accountable, to ensure that the EIS process is followed in an honest manner. This project will take twenty years to construct, will cost billions of dollars in city and state funding, and will have a dramatic environmental impact on the surrounding communities. No doubt there's the temptation for the developer and the ESDC to take shortcuts.

If the community doesn't serve as the watchdog on this, no one else will.

jack krohn

I just read that the Hagan sisters made a spectacle of themselves at Marty's innaugural party last night. IMO, it's behavior like this that discredits the opposition. It might allow them to blow off steam, but in the end it only harms the cause.

ratnerville4ever

Jack Krohn wrote: I just read that the Hagan sisters made a spectacle of themselves at Marty's innaugural party last night. IMO, it's behavior like this that discredits the opposition. It might allow them to blow off steam, but in the end it only harms the cause.

I heard Marty made a spectacle of himself. Its behavior like his, BUILD's, ACORN's and Bruce's that really discredits proponents.

dailyheights

Jack Krohn wrote: I just read that the Hagan sisters made a spectacle of themselves at Marty's innaugural party last night. IMO, it's behavior like this that discredits the opposition. It might allow them to blow off steam, but in the end it only harms the cause.

What did they do??

jml

The weblog Times Ratner Report describes them as "hecklers." The article, which is mostly about Marty's inauguration, is here: http://timesratnerreport.blogspot.com/2006/01/martys-state-of-borough-atlantic-yards.html.

But a far more interesting article on the blog talks about how our elected officials don't seem to be able (or perhaps willing) to determine the cost of this project. Look at http://timesratnerreport.blogspot.com/2006/01/big-unknown-borough-board-punts-on.html, to hear about how fiscal issues remain a big unknown.

jack krohn

Jack Krohn wrote: I just read that the Hagan sisters made a spectacle of themselves at Marty's innaugural party last night. IMO, it's behavior like this that discredits the opposition. It might allow them to blow off steam, but in the end it only harms the cause.

I heard Marty made a spectacle of himself. Its behavior like his, BUILD's, ACORN's and Bruce's that really discredits proponents.

Nope, Marty was a perfect gentleman.

If James Stuckey and Joseph DePlasco disrupted a DDDB event by yelling during a Tish James speech, I'm sure that you wouldn't be so complacent.

ratnerville4ever

Jack Krohn wrote: If James Stuckey and Joseph DePlasco disrupted a DDDB event by yelling during a Tish James speech, I'm sure that you wouldn't be so complacent.

they haven't but BUILD and ACORN have.

escap

Wait, so Dan runs nolandgrab? I thought he was the DDDB spokesperson, no? I guess not.

You learn something new everyday....

jack krohn

escap wrote: Wait, so Dan runs nolandgrab? I thought he was the DDDB spokesperson, no? I guess not.

You learn something new everyday....

Though he tries to downplay it, Dan is the main force behind the opposition. On this board, he posts under his own name, the name Ratnerville, and now under Ratnerville4ever. This makes the opposition appear broader and stronger than it actually is.

escap

Is that a fact? I thought Ratnerville was like his right hand man or something.

I just did a google of "dan goldstein dddb" and I found a millions hits claiming that he is dddb's spokesman, including a letter signed:

Sincerely,
Daniel Goldstein
Spokesman
Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn

Raulism, what's the deal? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I was just reacting to your comment that dddb is "your organization", implying that somehow Dan isn't affiliated. Are you like the president and he's just the spokesman, or what exactly?

raulism

escap wrote: Is that a fact? I thought Ratnerville was like his right hand man or something.

I just did a google of "dan goldstein dddb" and I found a millions hits claiming that he is dddb's spokesman, including a letter signed:

Sincerely,
Daniel Goldstein
Spokesman
Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn

Raulism, what's the deal? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I was just reacting to your comment that dddb is "your organization", implying that somehow Dan isn't affiliated. Are you like the president and he's just the spokesman, or what exactly?

I have been involved with DDDb for about 2 years, and I still have no idea of its structure. It looks like some of my posts have caused some confusion, so let me just make two statements clearly:

1. Dan Goldstein is the spokesperson of DDDb, and he is certainly affiliated with the organization.

2. Dan is not behind NoLandGrab

I am not the president of DDDb! I am a block captain and I'm on one committee, but it's not my day job. Is there any other confusion out there?

~raul

escap

Aha, I see. It sounds like DDDb (what's with the lowercase 'b'?) is some kind of amorphous Noam Chomsky-esque structureless web or something. Very intriguing.

Any idea who is behind nolandgrab? Or is the blogger's identity a secret?

metulj

escap wrote: Aha, I see. It sounds like DDDb (what's with the lowercase 'b'?) is some kind of amorphous Noam Chomsky-esque structureless web or something. Very intriguing.

Any idea who is behind nolandgrab? Or is the blogger's identity a secret?

Chomsky is all about structure, IIRC.