Border-talk: north of Park Pl is Bed Stuy?

marla_singer

I know border-talk is ... well, whatever, it is ... but still ...

Someone just pointed out to me that the Wikipedia article about Crown Heights now says that the southern border of Bed Stuy is Park Pl! I have never heard of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights,_Brooklyn

embereye

I saw that the other day too and was scratching my head, so brought it up with some folks last night. And so far general consensus was that Wikipedia is wrong. As far as I know, it goes all the way up to Atlantic. That might be wrong too though.

carnivore

That's bullshit- it's Atlantic Ave. Sounds like a real estate agent trying to carve Brower Park out of Crown Heights.

I edited the wiki back to the original borders.

homeowner

Nah, that's an old school thing. The border in the 70's was all over the place. It definitely went past Atlantic, but never as far as Park. I remember kids who lived on Dean, Bergen, etc saying they lived in Bed-Stuy.

carnivore

homeowner wrote: Nah, that's an old school thing. The border in the 70's was all over the place. It definitely went past Atlantic, but never as far as Park. I remember kids who lived on Dean, Bergen, etc saying they lived in Bed-Stuy.

That's funny, because someone I work with keeps insisting that back then "everybody" called parts of the area NORTH of Atlantic Crown Heights, despite my attempts to convince him otherwise. However, whatever uncertainty about the border existed in the past, it surely never extended to Park Place, a border that seems clearly motivated by the border of Brower Park.

mr. met

i actually went on a walking tour of the architecture of bed-stuy on sunday. the guide said that, at one time, bed-stuy extended all the way down to eastern parkway.

carnivore

mr. met wrote: i actually went on a walking tour of the architecture of bed-stuy on sunday. the guide said that, at one time, bed-stuy extended all the way down to eastern parkway.

According to The WPA Guide To New York City, published in 1939, pretty much all of what we call Bed-Stuy today was then called Stuyvesant Heights, while Bedford was basically where what we now call Clinton Hill is.

chekhovian

But a real estate broker told me an apartment I looked at on New York and Fulton was actually Fort Greene. I believed him, what.

mr. met

According to The WPA Guide To New York City, published in 1939, pretty much all of what we call Bed-Stuy today was then called Stuyvesant Heights, while Bedford was basically where what we now call Clinton Hill is.

interesting, carnivore. by any chance, do you know the current border of bedford and stuyvesant? i heard it on the tour i took, but can't remember now. it might be tomkins. not sure.

carnivore

mr. met wrote:

According to The WPA Guide To New York City, published in 1939, pretty much all of what we call Bed-Stuy today was then called Stuyvesant Heights, while Bedford was basically where what we now call Clinton Hill is.

interesting, carnivore. by any chance, do you know the current border of bedford and stuyvesant? i heard it on the tour i took, but can't remember now. it might be tomkins. not sure.

No idea. I always think of it as one neighborhood.

homeowner

I think its Sumner (Marcus Garvey) or Throop.

mr. met

No idea. I always think of it as one neighborhood.

me too. walking west to east you can really see a difference, though. bedford is much more commercial and busy, and stuyvesant is so quiet that it almost feels like a suburb.

I think its Sumner (Marcus Garvey) or Throop.

sounds right

homeowner

Although I don't get why people don't believe that the boundaries are Bedford to the West and Stuyvesant to the east, ergo Bedford-Stuyvesant.

jack krohn

Heehee. If you ever want some easy fun, disagree with Carnivore on where a border of a Brooklyn neighborhood is located. He always has a coronary (as evidenced above).

carnivore

Jack Krohn wrote: Heehee. If you ever want some easy fun, disagree with Carnivore on where a border of a Brooklyn neighborhood is located. He always has a coronary (as evidenced above).

:roll:

A coronary? Please.

mr. met

If you ever want some easy fun, disagree with Carnivore on where a border of a Brooklyn neighborhood is located. He always has a coronary (as evidenced above).

and all this time i thought carnivore was a woman...

carnivore

mr. met wrote:

If you ever want some easy fun, disagree with Carnivore on where a border of a Brooklyn neighborhood is located. He always has a coronary (as evidenced above).

and all this time i thought carnivore was a woman...

You're not the first. But you can't keep me and my sisters down! :queen:

mr. met

capt. planet

I'd have to agree with Krohn on Carnivore's issue around n'hood definiitions. He has definite paranoid tendencies when it comes to n'hoods and real estate brokers. My attempt to break off the blocks around Brower Park as a separate n'hood based on sound historical evidence and an appreciate of the superior quality of the housing stock in the area, practically sent him to the emergency room. And before Carnivore has another heart attack, yes, I am a real estate broker. Gasp!

Just to add some fact to this frenzy, pasted below is an article written by Michael Combs, a board member of Crown Heights North Association, and in real life, a physician working a large city-owned hospital.

Crown Heights North, by Any Other Name

This area has had many names through the centuries; “Crown Heights” is just the most recent one. We don’t know what the indigenous peoples called it, but from the trails that already existed before we paved them and made them our streets, it’s clear that they knew the area well. When the Dutch arrived in the 1600s, they parceled out much of the land to the Lefferts family, branches of which then spent the nineteenth century suing each other for it before selling it off for houses in the 1890s.

Today, people use the names “Brooklyn” and “Kings County” interchangeably, but that wasn’t always the case. At first, Brooklyn was only one of six towns in Kings County, occupying the area we know as Brooklyn Heights. But over time, the populace expanded east, eventually creating the settlement of Bedford around an important intersection: the area where the Jamaica Turnpike (today’s Fulton Street, used then by passengers from the Long Island Ferry) met Clove and Cripplebush Roads (the present-day route of the B44 bus, and at that time the only way to travel between Flatbush and Williamsburg) became known as Bedford Falls.

As the town of Brooklyn grew steadily, however, it absorbed settlements like Bedford, so that by the turn of the twentieth century, the large lot sizes and (then) suburban surroundings had drawn some of Brooklyn’s wealthiest families, and ours was considered the finest neighborhood in the city. The stretch of St. Marks Avenue between Nostrand and Brooklyn Avenues was lined with such splendid Victorian mansions that this part of Bedford became known as the “Saint Marks Section.” Developers saw an opportunity and, hoping to make their properties seem prestigious, expanded the name to include all of Crown Heights North. Overlooking all of this was the Kings County Penitentiary, a menacing stone structure looming atop Crow Hill, in the area we know as the intersection of Rogers Ave. and Union Ave. Since the penitentiary was located at the highest point in the neighborhood, the Brooklyn Eagle often referred to it simply as “Crow Hill” until it was torn down in the early twentieth century.

The name “Crown Heights” originated in the 1920s with the development of Crown Street and the surrounding area. As mansions disappeared in the north part of the neighborhood, replaced with houses and large apartment buildings, the posh term “St. Mark's Section” faded from use.

Avenues.

capt. planet

I'd have to agree with Krohn on Carnivore's issue around n'hood definiitions. He has definite paranoid tendencies when it comes to n'hoods and real estate brokers. My attempt to break off the blocks around Brower Park as a separate n'hood based on sound historical evidence and an appreciate of the superior quality of the housing stock in the area, practically sent him to the emergency room. And before Carnivore has another heart attack, yes, I am a real estate broker. Gasp!

Just to add some fact to this frenzy, pasted below is an article written by Michael Combs, a board member of Crown Heights North Association, and in real life, a physician working a large city-owned hospital.

Crown Heights North, by Any Other Name

This area has had many names through the centuries; “Crown Heights” is just the most recent one. We don’t know what the indigenous peoples called it, but from the trails that already existed before we paved them and made them our streets, it’s clear that they knew the area well. When the Dutch arrived in the 1600s, they parceled out much of the land to the Lefferts family, branches of which then spent the nineteenth century suing each other for it before selling it off for houses in the 1890s.

Today, people use the names “Brooklyn” and “Kings County” interchangeably, but that wasn’t always the case. At first, Brooklyn was only one of six towns in Kings County, occupying the area we know as Brooklyn Heights. But over time, the populace expanded east, eventually creating the settlement of Bedford around an important intersection: the area where the Jamaica Turnpike (today’s Fulton Street, used then by passengers from the Long Island Ferry) met Clove and Cripplebush Roads (the present-day route of the B44 bus, and at that time the only way to travel between Flatbush and Williamsburg) became known as Bedford Falls.

As the town of Brooklyn grew steadily, however, it absorbed settlements like Bedford, so that by the turn of the twentieth century, the large lot sizes and (then) suburban surroundings had drawn some of Brooklyn’s wealthiest families, and ours was considered the finest neighborhood in the city. The stretch of St. Marks Avenue between Nostrand and Brooklyn Avenues was lined with such splendid Victorian mansions that this part of Bedford became known as the “Saint Marks Section.” Developers saw an opportunity and, hoping to make their properties seem prestigious, expanded the name to include all of Crown Heights North. Overlooking all of this was the Kings County Penitentiary, a menacing stone structure looming atop Crow Hill, in the area we know as the intersection of Rogers Ave. and Union Ave. Since the penitentiary was located at the highest point in the neighborhood, the Brooklyn Eagle often referred to it simply as “Crow Hill” until it was torn down in the early twentieth century.

The name “Crown Heights” originated in the 1920s with the development of Crown Street and the surrounding area. As mansions disappeared in the north part of the neighborhood, replaced with houses and large apartment buildings, the posh term “St. Mark's Section” faded from use.

Avenues.

carnivore

Capt. Planet wrote: I'd have to agree with Krohn on Carnivore's issue around n'hood definiitions. He has definite paranoid tendencies when it comes to n'hoods and real estate brokers. My attempt to break off the blocks around Brower Park as a separate n'hood based on sound historical evidence and an appreciate of the superior quality of the housing stock in the area, practically sent him to the emergency room. And before Carnivore has another heart attack, yes, I am a real estate broker. Gasp!

No "frenzy," just someone who disagrees with you. I think any objective observer who reads this thread will recognize Jack Krohn's and your hyperbole for what it is. I would suggest that your reaction and Jack's are the ones that sound hysterical here.

carnivore

Capt. Planet wrote: I'd have to agree with Krohn on Carnivore's issue around n'hood definiitions. He has definite paranoid tendencies when it comes to n'hoods and real estate brokers. My attempt to break off the blocks around Brower Park as a separate n'hood based on sound historical evidence and an appreciate of the superior quality of the housing stock in the area, practically sent him to the emergency room. And before Carnivore has another heart attack, yes, I am a real estate broker. Gasp!

No "frenzy," just someone who disagrees with you. I think any objective observer who reads this thread will recognize Jack Krohn's and your hyperbole for what it is. I would suggest that your reaction and Jack's are the ones that sound hysterical here.

ishtar

Maybe next year I will live in Prospect Heights.

ishtar

Maybe next year I will live in Prospect Heights.

ishtar

Maybe next year I will live in Prospect Heights.

capt. planet

Perhaps in a future life, Mr. C. will come back as a real estate broker (suitable punishment!) and have to hear the typical customers from Park Slope or Manhattan howl about Crown Heights, how dangerous it is, how drug ridden, etc.etc. based on reading a lot of crime reports, hearsay from friends and family and recollections of a riot from 1990. Of course, because Crown Heights is a very wide n'hood that encompasses areas as far east as Ralph Avenue and includes the Albany Projects among others, it is true that there is a lot of crime and drugs in Crown Heights. But other areas, such as that around Brower Park, are very unlike the areas around Ralph Avenue or Rochester Avenue for that matter.
Which is why different n'hood names emerge, to help recognize that distinction. Brower Park vicinity has a distinctly better housing stock than say Weeksville or Ocean Hill-Brownsville. This reality is worth recognition.
Just as Soho was clearly different from the West Village, and Tri-Beca different from Soho.
And no, I don't believe all of this n'hood naming is some sinister plot perpertrated by real estate agents. It's just part of the natural evolution of spaces in cities. That can be used by real estate agents but is not necessarily generated by them. Mr. C, please look for some other population to pick on. Real estate agents have had more than their fair share.

capt. planet

Perhaps in a future life, Mr. C. will come back as a real estate broker (suitable punishment!) and have to hear the typical customers from Park Slope or Manhattan howl about Crown Heights, how dangerous it is, how drug ridden, etc.etc. based on reading a lot of crime reports, hearsay from friends and family and recollections of a riot from 1990. Of course, because Crown Heights is a very wide n'hood that encompasses areas as far east as Ralph Avenue and includes the Albany Projects among others, it is true that there is a lot of crime and drugs in Crown Heights. But other areas, such as that around Brower Park, are very unlike the areas around Ralph Avenue or Rochester Avenue for that matter.
Which is why different n'hood names emerge, to help recognize that distinction. Brower Park vicinity has a distinctly better housing stock than say Weeksville or Ocean Hill-Brownsville. This reality is worth recognition.
Just as Soho was clearly different from the West Village, and Tri-Beca different from Soho.
And no, I don't believe all of this n'hood naming is some sinister plot perpertrated by real estate agents. It's just part of the natural evolution of spaces in cities. That can be used by real estate agents but is not necessarily generated by them. Mr. C, please look for some other population to pick on. Real estate agents have had more than their fair share.

capt. planet

Perhaps in a future life, Mr. C. will come back as a real estate broker (suitable punishment!) and have to hear the typical customers from Park Slope or Manhattan howl about Crown Heights, how dangerous it is, how drug ridden, etc.etc. based on reading a lot of crime reports, hearsay from friends and family and recollections of a riot from 1990. Of course, because Crown Heights is a very wide n'hood that encompasses areas as far east as Ralph Avenue and includes the Albany Projects among others, it is true that there is a lot of crime and drugs in Crown Heights. But other areas, such as that around Brower Park, are very unlike the areas around Ralph Avenue or Rochester Avenue for that matter.
Which is why different n'hood names emerge, to help recognize that distinction. Brower Park vicinity has a distinctly better housing stock than say Weeksville or Ocean Hill-Brownsville. This reality is worth recognition.
Just as Soho was clearly different from the West Village, and Tri-Beca different from Soho.
And no, I don't believe all of this n'hood naming is some sinister plot perpertrated by real estate agents. It's just part of the natural evolution of spaces in cities. That can be used by real estate agents but is not necessarily generated by them. Mr. C, please look for some other population to pick on. Real estate agents have had more than their fair share.

ben

I've heard that the border is park pl many times by people who have been in the area a long time. It seems as though crown heights north was at one time considered to be part of bed-stuy. I don't think this is a new thing being done by real estate agents but an old thing that hasn't been updated..

I think that the modern border is pretty much agreed to be Atlantic by everyone, real estate agents included. I don't see any motivation to dub crown heights north as bedstuy, I think both neighborhoods are perceived in similar ways.

carnivore

Capt. Planet wrote: Perhaps in a future life, Mr. C. will come back as a real estate broker (suitable punishment!) and have to hear the typical customers from Park Slope or Manhattan howl about Crown Heights, how dangerous it is, how drug ridden, etc.etc. based on reading a lot of crime reports, hearsay from friends and family and recollections of a riot from 1990. Of course, because Crown Heights is a very wide n'hood that encompasses areas as far east as Ralph Avenue and includes the Albany Projects among others, it is true that there is a lot of crime and drugs in Crown Heights. But other areas, such as that around Brower Park, are very unlike the areas around Ralph Avenue or Rochester Avenue for that matter.
Which is why different n'hood names emerge, to help recognize that distinction. Brower Park vicinity has a distinctly better housing stock than say Weeksville or Ocean Hill-Brownsville. This reality is worth recognition.
Just as Soho was clearly different from the West Village, and Tri-Beca different from Soho.
And no, I don't believe all of this n'hood naming is some sinister plot perpertrated by real estate agents. It's just part of the natural evolution of spaces in cities. That can be used by real estate agents but is not necessarily generated by them. Mr. C, please look for some other population to pick on. Real estate agents have had more than their fair share.

1. I don't know who "Mr. C" is.
2. I don't believe in reincarnation, but if I did, it's not like being a real estate agent is something someone is "born to do." I can assure you that under no circumstances would I or a future version of me choose that vocation.
3. Please quote the part in this thread where I "picked on" real estate agents. You're jumping at shadows here.
4. You're in a fantasy land if you think that real estate agents follow "the natural evolution of spaces in cities" rather than trying to direct that evolution.

bobbybrummel

atlantic ave is a man-made natural border (if that makes any sense). i have friends who live less than a mile away in clinton hill who almost never come down to prospect heights because crossing atlantic ave is like fording a river for them. the mental border almost doubles the actual distance and time it takes to walk between our apartments.

i imagine it's even more pronounced farther east, what with the raised tracks.

using park as a border would be like going to the four corners. you could hop back and forth and be amused by how arbitrary our map lines are.