Should infants/children be allowed in bars?

stooplady

Oh, thanks for the reply...what I meant about the Europe comment was not meant to go with the breadwinner or fertility thing. I would not have wanted to sleep in the same bed as my father, thank you very much...guess it would be all right in a mentally, physically and spiritually healthy family?.
Thanks also for the stats on fertility, am familiar with those too. Was actually thinking about when families were living in very close corners, i.e. most humans until the 20th century/sustainable living and did everything together due to the conditions of the time.
If this was so wonderful how did our current way of living become so desirable?
Will edit in the future...stream-of-consciousness writing does get this ADHD (agrarian society leftover) girl in trouble.

witch-king

As long as they're strapped into the MaClaren Grand Tour LX, let 'em drink as much as they want.

domino

Only if the little bugger is buying a few rounds.

If the establishment is a bar/restaurant and the kid is not bellied up to the bar, hell, why not. If it is purely a bar - gimme a break. What is the point of the kid being there - so you can use the stroller for balance as you stagger home? A conversation starter with the opposite sex (if you are a single parent)? Can't afford a baby-sitter (but you CAN afford liquor at a bar versus a few drinks at home?) Sorry, n-uh uh. No kiddies at the bar.

As for the restaurant/bar establishment - no kiddies after 9. I know they can dwaddle over a meal but the kid is tired and cranky - go home and put it to bed. I really don't want to hear the whining, crying and general cacaphony associated with over tired kids fussing because it is waaaay past time they were tucked in for the night.

jeffrey

Flexi, you are now officially our resident FIPS bait.

tdog

Oh, good Lord. Hey, Erica (from FIPS). You need to start putting me on your payroll or something.

ntfool

My wife and I have brought our child into Sepia every now and again, but we've been going there regularly since the night they opened. We would never bring the kid in there either a.) after 7:00 pm, b.) when she's acting up, or c.) if its crowded with a lot of non-regulars.

peter_scotch

ntfool wrote: My wife and I have brought our child into Sepia every now and again, but we've been going there regularly since the night they opened. We would never bring the kid in there either a.) after 7:00 pm, b.) when she's acting up, or c.) if its crowded with a lot of non-regulars.

Thank you for being a considerate parent (seriously)

domino

ntfool - ditto to flexi's comment. Could you possibly consider giving some parenting classes?

opossumqueen

I think I'm more annoyed at unruly kids in "nice" bars/restaurants. But how do the businesses keep kids out? Maybe they don't have highchairs as a discouragement, but what if they tell a parent the little ones aren't allowed. They would probably get all kinds of bad PR since we're in such a heavily childed area. Does anyone know of a place that has done this?

It's hard to just not go to places where a meal/evening was ruined by kids b/c I think all of our favorite places would be marked off the list except a few places where we wouldn't care about kids : /

And as others have said, it's really the parents causing the problem. I was waiting in line (oh so long) at the post office. While at the window for a very long time, a mother never even looked at the commotion her two kids were creating. They were tugging at one guy's stack of packages and playing with the barriers (the retractable fabric and heavy poles). They were moving the poles all around and knocking them to the floor, a noise I can't imagine how the mother couldn't hear. Then once she was done they started ripping up the sheet of stamps she just bought and she was all smiles and adoring of their cuteness. My post office trip wasn't ruined and *my* packages didn't have the paper torn but this kind of stuff moved into a restaurant/bar is what is so frustrating for other patrons. Rant ended.

ntfool

OpossumQueen wrote: And as others have said, it's really the parents causing the problem. I was waiting in line (oh so long) at the post office. While at the window for a very long time, a mother never even looked at the commotion her two kids were creating. They were tugging at one guy's stack of packages and playing with the barriers (the retractable fabric and heavy poles). They were moving the poles all around and knocking them to the floor, a noise I can't imagine how the mother couldn't hear. Then once she was done they started ripping up the sheet of stamps she just bought and she was all smiles and adoring of their cuteness. My post office trip wasn't ruined and *my* packages didn't have the paper torn but this kind of stuff moved into a restaurant/bar is what is so frustrating for other patrons. Rant ended.

And that is exactly why I generally hate kids. In fact, I still generally hate kids that are not my own.

In reality, most parents provide no boundaries for their children, gauranteeing them to become mewling brats. There's nothing wrong with some occasional light capital punishment, folks. A quick (and yes, slight) smack to the behind does wonders for a kid that doesn't want to listen. In fact, the child's fear of a spanking is generally more than enough to keep them toeing the line. Our daughter is 3 years old... she's probably been spanked twice in her life (both in the last year, obviously can't ever spank a baby).

Don't get me wrong... ALL kids act up. Its a healthy part of growing up to test your boundaries with some regularity. The problem is in letting them get away with it by giving in to their whining desires. I don't even consider myself a big disciplinarian... in the house I grew up in, my Irish mother would go for the wooden spoon if she thought my sister or I were even looking at her wrong. I would never hit my kid with an object, or anywhere other than her behind. But hey, some occasional light spanking, to be used as a last resort only, really does not cause any permanent damage. It just gets the message across.

Uh oh. Now the "don't ever hit your kids" police will be coming after me in full flaming force.

carnivore

ntfool wrote: There's nothing wrong with some occasional light capital punishment, folks.

I hope you meant corporal punishment, not capital punishment... :shock: :shock: :shock:

ntfool

Erg. Yes. Yes I did. I have no intention of actually killing my child.

At least until we see how her teenage years play out.

axyun

I was spanked when I got out of line for sure....at least until I was taller than my mom by the time I was 12 (she's a shorty). FEAR alone of my father spanking me was enough to keep me in line (most of the time). I'm all for it (disclaimer: within appropriate boundaries, of course. You may want to beat the living snot out of your kid, but probably shouldn't).

sweet tea

i have yet to see a child cry less or more quietly after getting hit. regardless of what you think of corporal punishment, it's not a great solution for a child disturbing others in a restaurant/bar. (or airport or target or subway car.... i'm so tired of hearing fussy kids in those settings getting smacked into being SCREAMING kids.)

ntfool

sweet tea wrote: i have yet to see a child cry less or more quietly after getting hit. regardless of what you think of corporal punishment, it's not a great solution for a child disturbing others in a restaurant/bar. (or airport or target or subway car.... i'm so tired of hearing fussy kids in those settings getting smacked into being SCREAMING kids.)

Agreed. If a kid is being a screaming brat in public, a public spanking will only make it worse. I would leave where ever I was with the screaming child immediately though, so as not to disutrb all the other paying patrons.

domino

Hate to turn this topic slightly off the main focus, but I am frankly tired of time outs, special places and basically letting the children rule the parents.

I think children were more respectful in past decades (yes, I am THAT old) when spanking was de rigeur. I can remember back when not only did I fear the consequences of disobeying my parents, but also if my relatives or neighbors found out.

Yes, kids will act up, have total meltdowns and get totally bratty at the worst poss times - but in the past, I have a seen "THE LOOK" stop them in their tracks. Do I advocate beating the snot out of some kids? No - but some are way past due. As are some of their dopey parents.

Take the kid home and discipline him/her. At a certain age, kids should know that a) you do not always get your way and b) there are consequences to your actions. Some kids may "get it" at three, some may not "get it" until 33.

sweet tea

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

...something like that?

socrates said that, by the way. i don't think children have changed much.

whynot_31

sweet tea wrote: Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

...something like that?

socrates said that, by the way. i don't think children have changed much.

the sky has been falling for thousands of years.
...it's called rain.

domino

Agreed - the basic model has pretty much been the same for thousands of years (or at least since we have been walking upright).

The only problem now with the little tyrants is that they are armed, will call 911 to report abuse (read spanking) by their parents and really are oblivious to the value of human life.

homeowner

sweet tea wrote: i have yet to see a child cry less or more quietly after getting hit. regardless of what you think of corporal punishment, it's not a great solution for a child disturbing others in a restaurant/bar. (or airport or target or subway car.... i'm so tired of hearing fussy kids in those settings getting smacked into being SCREAMING kids.)

I don't think that its a solution in a public place, but if you are a parent that employs corporal (or capital ) punishment, usually the threat is enough to bring your kid back in line. A well-timed walk to the restroom or the car can sometimes help as well.

doctorj

homeowner wrote: if you are a parent that employs corporal (or capital ) punishment, usually the threat is enough to bring your kid back in line.

So I have no particular moral objection to corporal punishment, no special desire to see it completely forbidden like it is in several countries. Bringing up kids is hard work and you do what works and what you have to. The problem is 1) I don't think it improved my behavior as a kid, and I think it worsened my brother's over the long term, and contributed negatively to family relationships, and 2) there's a lot more evidence that it's ineffective or counterproductive than there is that it works, and 3) it's completely illegal in one of the countries where my child or children hold citizenship, so I couldn't use it when we're in that country, which is often, which means it's pretty much off the table.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home

homeowner wrote:
A well-timed walk to the restroom or the car can sometimes help as well.

Right. Or the bike, if you're a red-light running biker not a car owner.

effedparkslope

Flexichick: much to my dismay, we dont' have a payroll. But if we did, you'd SO be on it.

isaidit

effedparkslope wrote: Flexichick: much to my dismay, we dont' have a payroll. But if we did, you'd SO be on it.

I'm scared. One of you bitches get over here and hold me.

bklyn.x

If we are talking about a restaurant that serves alcohol then you should be allowed to have your kids join you for a meal. If we are talking about a bar, please no one under drinking age. If you must have an alcoholic beverage while you’re out with your kid you need to join one more group besides this one (AA) because you have a more serious problem than just being inconsiderate. Take your kid to the park you lush and let me climb into my drink in the company of like minded adults.

doctorj

Bklyn.X wrote: If we are talking about a bar, please no one under drinking age. If you must have an alcoholic beverage while you’re out with your kid you need to join one more group besides this one (AA) because you have a more serious problem than just being inconsiderate.

You're assuming that the parent or guardian is going to the bar to drink. I don't take my kid to a bar so I can drink, I do it to hang out with friends who happen to. As I was doing for many years before I had a child.

karl the druid

children should never be allowed in bars

they never tip

opossumqueen

Bklyn.X wrote: If we are talking about a restaurant that serves alcohol then you should be allowed to have your kids join you for a meal.

I think the real issue for those against it is not the idea of kids being there, but the behavior of kids that disrupts the meals of others. There are plenty of places where I don't care if kids are there and though I never think they should be kept inside while screaming (in fun or upset), there are places where I'm willing to put up with this, but not when I'm out at a nice place paying good money for nice atmosphere and food it's not cool.

I don't think kids are necessarily more ill behaved than in years past, it's just that they are taken out more often. When I was little, on the rare occasion that my folks went somewhere other than for pizza, we were left with a relative or friends where we could just be kids. I'm pretty sure my dad and his siblings were probably left alone together. I don't blame a parent for wanting to spend time with their children (I know my bro and sil, who both work long hours, cherish every moment with theirs) but they should choose places that are appropriate if they want to go out with little ones in tow.

I do the same with friends who tend to get really loud and/or foul-mouthed--skip the nice places, and go somewhere we'll fit in without disturbing others.

bklyn.x

doctorj wrote: You're assuming that the parent or guardian is going to the bar to drink. I don't take my kid to a bar so I can drink, I do it to hang out with friends who happen to. As I was doing for many years before I had a child.

Ahh, a drunkards mistake, sorry, when I go to a bar, even to hang out with friends I drink. Otherwise I hang out with them elsewhere.

doctorj

Bklyn.X wrote:
Ahh, a drunkards mistake, sorry, when I go to a bar, even to hang out with friends I drink. Otherwise I hang out with them elsewhere.

Ok. Well I also hang out with people in places other than bars when I can squeeze it in, but know quite a few people who do a lot of their socializing in bars, especially if it's a weeknight. When you work full time, and do childcare whenever you're not working, and still want to have a social life, either you continue to go most of the places you used to go (to the extent that it's compatible with the child's needs, such as sleep) or you find a bunch of new mommies and daddies and talk incessantly about sleeping and nutrition and toilet training over playdates (ugh!). Plus it's important to me to teach a child to be sociable and adaptable and comfortable with and trusting of a range of people in a range of mostly-safe environments. If I didn't dump all my friends and stop going to drinking establishments when I cut my alcohol consumption down to nearly zero over a decade ago, if I didn't stop hanging out with singles when I got married, then so long as no one raises an eyebrow and so long as the child clearly enjoys it too and is reasonably well-behaved, I see no reason to avoid bars I feel comfortable in just because I have a family, even if in practice it's less often than before. And it amazes me, that in a city that is renowned for its plurality, diversity, and tolerance, in a child-friendly neighborhood, that this should be at all controversial. I avoid being judgmental about other people's lifestyles (including alcohol and other vices, as well as parenting styles or reproductive choices) and would hope for vice versa. After all, for years and years, since I had zero interest in them, other people's children were totally invisible to me and never bugged me in bars, restaurants, whereever, in the slightest.

independent mind

doctorj wrote: I see no reason to avoid bars I feel comfortable in just because I have a family, even if in practice it's less often than before. And it amazes me, that in a city that is renowned for its plurality, diversity, and tolerance, in a child-friendly neighborhood, that this should be at all controversial. .

But people do tolerate it, thus its no 'controversy', they're just letting you know it's irritating. Deal. You are not going to argue your way out of people finding your desire to share your noisy festival of child-rearing irritating.

That doesn't mean they think you're a bad parent, just a slightly ill-mannered one.