Should planned food coop allow paid memberships?

hawthornestreet

Since the Lefferts Farm Food Coop will serve Crown Heights as well as PLG, I thought I'd post this debate on our blog that may interest some of you:

Should the PLG Food Coop Allow Paid Memberships?
http://www.hawthornestreet.com/2009/12/should-the-plg-food-coop-allow-paid-memberships.html#comment-6a00d83451f44f69e20120a78a5fec970b

carrie

eastbloc

Definitely allow paid memberships.

If you need manpower, price them accordingly to what the market will bear for paid help. A lot of us would be more than happy to contribute and participate but unable to get sufficient time off out of our everyday lives.

You could offer partially-paid memberships with fewer requirements. This would complicate bookkeeping somewhat but would make it easier for those of us with demanding jobs to stay involved.

whynot_31

I'd allow paid memberships, but price them in a way that few people would use them.

For example, if a "regular member" would have to work 2 hours every 4 weeks, charge the "paid members" something like $75 a month.

2 hours * $12 an hour = $24
$24 + taxes, workers comp, etc = $40
$40 * 1.4 for health insurance = $60
$60 plus a $15 fee for their slacking and your bookkeeping = $75

eastbloc

I agree with you in principle, whynot_31, but the metric you propose would price out those who would like to contribute _something_ but can more easily provide money than time.

Is there some reason you think a food co-op should be prejudiced against such a demographic?

whynot_31

Coops have historically been very left liberal. ...if I was a board member of one, I'd want to run one a food coop that:

a. Pays workers a living wage, ex $12 an hour.

b. Has its employeers on the books, and thus allows them the protections such jobs traditionally provide (works comp, unemployment insurance, FICA, medicare, etc.). ...these things cost money to admin and pay.

c. Provides health insurance. Yea, it should be provided by the government, but until they get their act together, why should the stocker person at the grocer not have it?

...it's true, I think people should have to pay service people decently, and I'd love to send the message that "it costs money to do so". The alternative is to, um, get rid of employees by, um having everyone work a shift.

Who better to "soak" than people don't have 2 hours to contribute? Whynot allocate the costs of the additional employees required to do their labor (plus a penalty) to them?

I suppose the they could shop at Key Food and/or C-town but I doubt they would given that the whole concept of a co-op seems to be related to "feeling good": fair trade food, healthy food, locally grown, organic, yada yada....

If such a place is going to have employees, my sense is that it should also pay them well and provide benefits. Doesn't that factor into to the "feel good factor?"

Without the "feel good factor", places such as food coops will just get their ass kicked by Trader Joes and Whole Foods: "high priced granola food served by minimum wage workers".





...

eastbloc

Fine, but why charge a price that would basically discourage anyone from pursuing the option? I'm not Donald Trump, just a guy in the neighborhood who wants fresh produce and to support independent farmers and others who appreciate their products.

I suppose I could quit my job and go work at the food co-op and "feel good", but I suspect I might feel worse when I can't pay my mortgage.

If I was the indignant sort, I'd question your desire to "soak" me for $75 -- is this about class war, or about good local produce accessible to all?

whynot_31

My math shows only a "soak fee" of $15 a month, the rest of the costs I believe to reflective of genuine costs. (I'll need poster who does payroll to verify though).

Labor costs a lot of money. I'm betting someone at the Park Slope Coop has already estimated the value of "member hour of labor", and its not cheap.

hey PS Coop Board member, now is you time to shine.....

Have you tried the Green Market? It has a limited selection this time of year, but the has the same vaues you articulate. ....ditto, there's that "box of assorted vegetables" thing that distributes out of the building near Franklin Park.

...both are cheap in part b/c they have few employees and don't have a NYC permanent address. Once a place pays NYC rent, and has NYC employees ....presto NYC Prices.

Coops are into the community aspect of shared work and pride in the store, that's why they would want to keep the number of people who are simply "paid members" to a minimum. ...they also seem to love the pursuit of democracy and consensus (as someone who dreams of being World Dictator these are two things I hate, but I digress)

This same phenomena is often is true in real estate, and an analogy could be drawn:

The argument is that once a coop building gets too many renters, costs for everyone go up: renters leave their windows open in the winter because their heat is paid (owners know their costs will increase), renters call the super when a pipe is clogged (owners know they'll have to pay a plumber and instead refrain from pouring the grease down the drain), renters don't clean-up the laundry room after they use it, etc

"paid members" = "renters" in this analogy.

Note: I'm not a food coop member, and am unlikely to EVER join a coop because I don't consume enough of the food frequently offered by them. ...not even as a paid member.

snowboardqueen

I would love to be able to pay a fee and not work 3 -4 hours a month.

Or pay a fee and work 1 hour a month.

I'm to busy for those 3 hours a month. It doesn't seem like much, but it is.

catwalkertexasranger

Having been a member of Peoples Food (Ocean Beach,San Diego) I always wondered why the weird whiteness of the Park Slope Co-op,both feel completely different, they have 11,000 plus owners. A real co-op not an elite I can pay you can't thing. Good food should be available without strange social hurdles. The hours per month are unneeded in lots of other business models all over the US. Rather than create a "club" that will be hard to join for lots of single moms in the hood,somebody should explore another option or 2

whynot_31

What's the name of that "group vegetable bulk buying thing" that operates out of the space by Franklin Park?

...would that work for either of you?

catwalkertexasranger

whynot_31 wrote: What's the name of that "group vegetable bulk buying thing" that operates out of the space by Franklin Park?

...would that work for either of you?

Yes it does work. Just a general gripe about days of old and modern times. The only shop on the weekend format goes against something for me. Still the quality of the farmers market is good. I hope they can get a balance and find enough square footage to have variety like the farmers market. I guess I watched the "real dirt on farmer John" too many times.

xlizellx

the box of vegetables thing is CSA and it's great but you don't get to choose what food you get...

I always thought a co-op was a co-op and not an expensive grocery store because you had to work and therefore people didn't have to be paid while you shopped. That said, if the place is open like 9am-11pm then everyone should be able to get in a few hours each month after work/weekends/etc. and for single moms, one of the "jobs" could be babysitter for other people working!

I agree that if you pay rather than work, it should be high. If it was like $15 a month, I bet most people would pay rather than work due to laziness.

sweet tea

indeed, the PS food coop does provide childcare (staffed by trained members), so the single-mom example is taken care of.

if the prices of a coop are such that a paying member would save more than $75/month, then what's the problem? if not, why would anyone do it?

another model is to have non-working members pay a bit more for each item they buy. following whynot's suggested labor cost, the additional per-item price could be such that a month's groceries for one person would cost about $75 more than for a working member. the math is perhaps a bit trickier, but this strikes me as the most sensible way to have a coop that doesn't require everyone to work. ideally, non-working members see both prices and are tempted to become working members. meanwhile, there's not a huge disincentive to join even if you might not do all of your shopping there, as there would be if the place charged a high monthly fee.

catwalkertexasranger

http://obpeoplesfood.coop/

whynot_31

lots of models out there, no need to reinvent the wheel.
http://niany.com/food.coop.html#new_york

CSA ....yea, that's what I was trying to think of. thx

pitu

catwalker, I don't believe you've been to the Park Slope Food Coop if you're only seeing "weird whiteness". That place is as diverse as the subway.

There's plenty of models for the Lefferts Farm Food Coop to check out. The Flatbush Food Coop has a relatively small financial incentive for members to work, and so I don't think on average they do. The price cut is just not significant.

The PSFC operates strictly with member labor (managed by paid staff who make a damn sight more than the not-so-living-wage of $12) because the commitment makes it work to be a seriously inexpensive grocery. (The proof is in the pudding as the place grows to more than 15,000 working members.) There's a bunch of other coops in NYC getting aid and info from the Park Slope mothership - if you haven't already called in to consult with Joe Holtz, you should. Coops in formation in Ft Greene, Bay Ridge and the Bronx...

You could also informally allow members to buy out of their shifts if you want -- the PSFC used to allow that, with mostly teenagers advertising in the in-house paper to do shifts for a set fee.

It's a tricky thing to set up, and I wish you good luck!

capt. planet

It seems that communism is just soooo out of fashion these days. The Park Slope Food Coop (which has 15,000 members not the 11,000 cited earlier) is extremely rare because it is one of very few in the country that does require member labor. It has grown to also be on of the largest coops in the country.
Which begs the question: why?
If it is such a rare animal, why has it prospered? One answer certainly is a suportive community. Park Slope is known throughout the city and now the country (given the new book and TV series about it) as a bastion of volunteerism and civic mindedness. These virtues have hardly hurt real estate values nor discouraged people from wanting to live there.
Perhaps there is something about self-sacrifice and giving back to the greater community that stimulates not only the community but the individual as well. Call it communism if you want, but it also has a lot to do with the beginnings of our own capitalist nation. I think either model can work fine if people actually get off their backsides and get involved.

carnivore

Capt. Planet wrote: Call it communism if you want...

You're the only one in this thread who used that word.

sweet tea

communism was just a red herring!

stacey

pitu wrote:
You could also informally allow members to buy out of their shifts if you want -- the PSFC used to allow that, with mostly teenagers advertising in the in-house paper to do shifts for a set fee.

It's a tricky thing to set up, and I wish you good luck!

I would join any coop in a heartbeat if they allowed this.

capt. planet

Many tend to frame the irrational, selfless behavior of Coop members as "communistic". Perhaps I'm leading this discussion in a way it doesn't want to go, but perhaps I'm also reacting to a recent article in the New York Times about the Park Slope Food Coop. Read it at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/nyregion/25coop.html

The article was criticized in the official Coop newsletter for its generally sneering and condescending tone, which is often how the uninvolved deal with the passion and commitment found in the Coop.
In my experience the sneering is often a thinly veiled expression of jealousy.

catwalkertexasranger

I tried to post a Coop that I had lots of experience with like Peoples Food. I was also a member at a couple of others. The model go like this, get 3000 people to sign up to shop at your grocery store( Coop,Price Club,ect)a Coop agrees to carry @ 500-1000 core products.Anybody can shop there members get a deep discount because of their commitment(membership cash or labor). The problem with park slope is that not everybody can shop there. There are many times when somebody wants something and would pay a premium to get it. They should have 2 tiered pricing member and non member. Once a person finds the things at the Coop are better quality, he or she may choose to become a member and realize all the benefits. In CA there are a few things that can only be purchased by members,rare onions,squash,mellons but anybody off the street can buy Dr.Bronners or everyday things. The store on Franklin is a good example, they are trying to be organic but everything(80-90%) of their products are processed only a small selection of fresh anything,same trick as Whole foods or Trader Joe,yes organic dry pasta is better than non but it's still dry and not fresh..Until something good opens it's Fairway,farmers market(PP and Unionsq both good) I really don't see a need for everybody to be a bagboy for 2hrs it proves little.

sweet tea

good for you. the price difference matters a great deal to me, but hey, the coop is crowded enough as it is.

tsarina

The PSFC has many detractors because it is not everything for everybody. As a long time coop member I have heard a lot of gripping about how the co-op is not good because it isn't run exactly how 1 person thinks it should be run. But the fact is : it is the oldest and largest coop around. There is even a waiting list to get into an orientation sometimes. Most members think it is pretty darn great. and if you don't think so, you don't have to join.
I think its perfectly fine that not everyone can shop there. A commitment is necessary. that is what makes the difference between shopping at Costco and the PSFC. Nobody is entitled to have whatever they want just because they want it and can pay more money for it right now. The coop is crowded enough without people who don't understand that member labor is what makes the the coop great, and makes it possible to have great products at low prices. You can get anything the coop sells on your own, but its gonna take alot more personal effort. thats the point.