Prospect Park (not the murder)

findcate

That area is also just gross. I walk thru there with my friend, she likes to walk her dogs there because there aren't many people & she can let them off leash. It's just used condoms everywhere. I feel like I need a shower afterwards. How come the park can't clean this up?

It's really sad, he sounded like a nice guy.

kosherdave

pitu wrote: Be careful, lads.

[quote=Livetotravel] Or on the PPW side of Long Meadow "a straight white people's cruising area?"

Wait, is there a "Gentrification crusing area?"

idlewild

kosherdave wrote: [quote=pitu]Be careful, lads.

[quote=Livetotravel] Or on the PPW side of Long Meadow "a straight white people's cruising area?"

Wait, is there a "Gentrification crusing area?"

The bandshell is one, the inner roadway is second where all the cyclists gather and speed at 40 mph hoping to clip or mow down native, law abiding Brooklynites who mind their own b.i. business admiring the scenery in the pedestrian lane.

metulj

Idlewild wrote:
The bandshell is one, the inner roadway is second where all the cyclists gather and speed at 40 mph hoping to clip or mow down native, law abiding Brooklynites who mind their own b.i. business admiring the scenery in the pedestrian lane.

You mean the ones who rollerblade/jog/push strollers in the wrong direction or the ones who cut across the road on their kid's bikes or the ones who jaywalk?

idlewild

Good point, They're gentrificers too. Thanks for the heads up on that one.

metulj

Idlewild wrote: Good point, They're gentrificers too. Thanks for the heads up on that one.

Yeah, I think all people who are obvious gentrifiers should be banned from Prospect Park.

idlewild

Exactly! Let them use the Eastern Athletic Club and Crunch. That's all the space they deserve.

kosherdave

You mean the ones who rollerblade/jog/push strollers in the wrong direction or the ones who cut across the road on their kid's bikes or the ones who jaywalk?

ohhh I HATE the wrong direction crap. You're looking on way, making sure no one is coming, and bam, someone clips you from the other side! Is it THAT hard to tell which direction 90 percent of people are headed, and to think it just might be safer for everyone if you did the same!!

quijibo

isn't there an undeclared law that states
"all traffic must travel down the right side lane"

right?

vanilla

Idlewild wrote: Exactly! Let them use the Eastern Athletic Club and Crunch. That's all the space they deserve.

no, they are already way too annoying there... do we really need to hear a five year old crying for mommy while in the steam room? those kids atleast better have to pay to annoy everyone there...

metulj

Idlewild wrote: Exactly! Let them use the Eastern Athletic Club and Crunch. That's all the space they deserve.

So people who live in the nabe, pay taxes and don't cause trouble don't deserve to use the Park? Fascinating.

jayce

Idlewild wrote:
The bandshell is one, the inner roadway is second where all the cyclists gather and speed at 40 mph hoping to clip or mow down native, law abiding Brooklynites who mind their own b.i. business admiring the scenery in the pedestrian lane.

Um, as one of those cyclists (at least one thats hitting 30mph, not 40), its kinda hard to get into the pedestrian lane. We're usually in the cycling lane. Where way too many people walk. And in that case, we don't mow them down, but we do ask them (some of us less kindly than others) to stay out of the biking lane because its pretty damn scary when the cars are coming up from behind you even faster and usually encroaching on the bike lane too.

I am down for scenery admiration, but sometimes you can admire scenery from the trails and leave the running lane for runners and the biking lane for biking.

Just my 2 cents. As a non-mower.
Tho I did get a little close to that pedestrian lane one time, but only cause I saw Ms. Cupcake out on a stroll and wanted to say hello.

idlewild

metulj wrote: [quote=Idlewild]Exactly! Let them use the Eastern Athletic Club and Crunch. That's all the space they deserve.

So people who live in the nabe, pay taxes and don't cause trouble don't deserve to use the Park? Fascinating.

No they don't. All taxes and fertile land are for the king.

idlewild

jayce wrote: [quote=Idlewild]
The bandshell is one, the inner roadway is second where all the cyclists gather and speed at 40 mph hoping to clip or mow down native, law abiding Brooklynites who mind their own b.i. business admiring the scenery in the pedestrian lane.

Um, as one of those cyclists (at least one thats hitting 30mph, not 40), its kinda hard to get into the pedestrian lane. We're usually in the cycling lane. Where way too many people walk. And in that case, we don't mow them down, but we do ask them (some of us less kindly than others) to stay out of the biking lane because its pretty damn scary when the cars are coming up from behind you even faster and usually encroaching on the bike lane too.

I am down for scenery admiration, but sometimes you can admire scenery from the trails and leave the running lane for runners and the biking lane for biking.

Just my 2 cents. As a non-mower.
Tho I did get a little close to that pedestrian lane one time, but only cause I saw Ms. Cupcake out on a stroll and wanted to say hello.

I'm mainly talking about when the park is closed to motorized traffic. Btw, I too am a biker that uses the park alot. My humorous zing was mostly directed at the people who fly past on the road bikes and disregard pedestrian right of way. I'm not talking about the pedestrian who lunges out of nowhere into an oncoming bile but people who casually walk in the roadway and are hollared at by road racers or worse, not given any warning at all and have to contend with a bike zipping by them within inches of their body.

metulj

Idlewild wrote: I'm not talking about the pedestrian who lunges out of nowhere into an oncoming bile but people who casually walk in the roadway and are hollared at by road racers or worse, not given any warning at all and have to contend with a bike zipping by them within inches of their body.

I've taken to carrying a small air horn. Get about 20 feet away and pop that fucker off right at them.

The white lines are there for a reason. So when the traffic is blocked, your assertion is that it becomes a free for all?

jayce

Idlewild wrote:
I'm mainly talking about when the park is closed to motorized traffic. Btw, I too am a biker that uses the park alot. My humorous zing was mostly directed at the people who fly past on the road bikes and disregard pedestrian right of way. I'm not talking about the pedestrian who lunges out of nowhere into an oncoming bile but people who casually walk in the roadway and are hollared at by road racers or worse, not given any warning at all and have to contend with a bike zipping by them within inches of their body.

I think a lot of those pedestrians need to have some understanding for the fact that they can't just step out. And a lot of them do. Its like stepping into any kind of traffic. Look out! The number of times I have had to screetch to a halt to avoid some idiot who isn't looking is unreal. And a last minute swerve on my part will usually toss me onto my ass. When a bike weighs less than like 5lbs, let me tell you, a sharp swerve is giving you one hell of a road rash.

So I totally get the road cyclists (again, the group I consider myself a part of now) getting pissed off. Its scary when someone steps out without looking. And it happens CONSTANTLY.

idlewild

metulj wrote: [quote=Idlewild] I'm not talking about the pedestrian who lunges out of nowhere into an oncoming bile but people who casually walk in the roadway and are hollared at by road racers or worse, not given any warning at all and have to contend with a bike zipping by them within inches of their body.

I've taken to carrying a small air horn. Get about 20 feet away and pop that fucker off right at them.

The white lines are there for a reason. So when the traffic is blocked, your assertion is that it becomes a free for all?

I don't believe I asserted that at all. Are you saying that when the roads are closed to motorized traffic that pedestrians aren't allowed to walk in the roadway?

idlewild

jayce wrote: [quote=Idlewild]
I'm mainly talking about when the park is closed to motorized traffic. Btw, I too am a biker that uses the park alot. My humorous zing was mostly directed at the people who fly past on the road bikes and disregard pedestrian right of way. I'm not talking about the pedestrian who lunges out of nowhere into an oncoming bile but people who casually walk in the roadway and are hollared at by road racers or worse, not given any warning at all and have to contend with a bike zipping by them within inches of their body.

I think a lot of those pedestrians need to have some understanding for the fact that they can't just step out. And a lot of them do. Its like stepping into any kind of traffic. Look out! The number of times I have had to screetch to a halt to avoid some idiot who isn't looking is unreal. And a last minute swerve on my part will usually toss me onto my ass. When a bike weighs less than like 5lbs, let me tell you, a sharp swerve is giving you one hell of a road rash.

So I totally get the road cyclists (again, the group I consider myself a part of now) getting pissed off. Its scary when someone steps out without looking. And it happens CONSTANTLY.

And I agree with you. About the pedestrians stepping out of nowhere that is. I've had to apply full brakes on a number of idiots who decide to play chicken with my bike, and I've gotten into a few arguments with them. I also believe that bikers too have to realize that a ton of pedestrians use the park, not all of them are bright and you need to ride cautiously. Now, what about the pedestrians who are walking in orderly kind of way, who also might have kids with them and are buzzed within a few inches by a cyclist who is going pretty fast?

jayce

Idlewild wrote:
And I agree with you. About the pedestrians stepping out of nowhere that is. I've had to apply full brakes on a number of idiots who decide to play chicken with my bike, and I've gotten into a few arguments with them. I also believe that bikers too have to realize that a ton of pedestrians use the park, not all of them are bright and you need to ride cautiously. Now, what about the pedestrians who are walking in orderly kind of way, who also might have kids with them and are buzzed within a few inches by a cyclist who is going pretty fast?

I haven't seen too much of that.
But yeah, that would be evil.
But like I said, I haven't ever seen something like that. Most times its a cyclist amazed at how often the pedestrians step out. And sometimes its tempting to scare them out of ever doing that again. But I usually just yell to make sure they know I am coming if its gonna be close. I'm not going over the handlebars for some idiot. I've done that before. Its not fun.

medusa

kosherdave wrote:

You mean the ones who rollerblade/jog/push strollers in the wrong direction or the ones who cut across the road on their kid's bikes or the ones who jaywalk?

ohhh I HATE the wrong direction crap. You're looking on way, making sure no one is coming, and bam, someone clips you from the other side! Is it THAT hard to tell which direction 90 percent of people are headed, and to think it just might be safer for everyone if you did the same!!

If you run the same direction all the time in the park you risk getting your IT band tight more on one side than the other. It's really safer to switch directions every other time you run.

oneasternparkway

As with any issue, it's not cut and dry, and there are villains and saints on all sides of the discussion:

1) Many cyclists are not willing to pay attention to the stoplights at the pedestrian crossings, even during traffic hours. Refusal to follow basic traffic rules makes the constant push by cyclists to be given more respect on the streets hard to swallow. Similarly, it's not infrequent to come across people on bikes (not Lance wannabes in superman gear, but average Joes and Janes on mountain bikes and cruisers) in the pedestrian lane.

2) Many pedestrians walk 2,3,4 or more abreast in the pedestrian lane, forcing joggers/runners into the bike lane or off the pavement. Going off the pavement is fine where there is grass or a trail (I run on soft surfaces whenever possible), but there are places that these don't exist.

3) It's a bit unclear to all involved as to what the protocol is during no-traffic hours. Is the bike lane still a bike lane, or are the bikers expected to make use of the 2 free lanes of roadway? And what to do with roller bladers, roller skaters, kids on bikes, etc? My take has always been that the latter group should use the bike lane during these times.

There are far too many groups using the park to turn this into another hipster/gentrifier/natives/newbies mind melt, even in jest.

jayce

Medusa wrote:
ohhh I HATE the wrong direction crap. You're looking on way, making sure no one is coming, and bam, someone clips you from the other side! Is it THAT hard to tell which direction 90 percent of people are headed, and to think it just might be safer for everyone if you did the same!!

If you run the same direction all the time in the park you risk getting your IT band tight more on one side than the other. It's really safer to switch directions every other time you run.

I think its the wrong way cyclists that are the hazzard in question. Which is why its actually illegal to ride against the flow of traffic. Runners totally need to switch it up. I think they need to make the runners lane bigger. (I also run in the park in the evenings). In fact, why on earth is the damn park still open to car traffic at all?!? I mean, come on already. Who needs to commute through the frigging park?? Its about time they closed it to cars. :!:

oneasternparkway

Medusa wrote:
If you run the same direction all the time in the park you risk getting your IT band tight more on one side than the other. It's really safer to switch directions every other time you run.

As a veteran of IT-band surgery brought about by always running on the left shoulder of cambered roads, I can tell you that this is spot-on. It's not the constant left turns that cause a problem (360 degrees in 3.35 miles is not a big deal), but rather the fact that your left leg is almost always hitting the ground an inch or two lower than your right.

I try to run alternate directions as regularly as I can. Failing that (on a busy weekend afternoon, for example), I stick to the trails that run along much of the roadway as much as possible.

metulj

Idlewild wrote:
I don't believe I asserted that at all. Are you saying that when the roads are closed to motorized traffic that pedestrians aren't allowed to walk in the roadway?

I am saying that if you get whacked while walking out in the middle of a 80 foot wide roadway by a moving vehicle when there is a designated walking area, it is your own damn fault. If I were to ride my bike on the sidewalk, which I do not do, and hit someone the fines are astronomical. Maybe you don't advocate people taking the personal responsibility to not be a walking, talking tort?

rose

OnEasternParkway wrote: As with any issue, it's not cut and dry, and there are villains and saints on all sides of the discussion:

1) Many cyclists are not willing to pay attention to the stoplights at the pedestrian crossings, even during traffic hours. Refusal to follow basic traffic rules makes the constant push by cyclists to be given more respect on the streets hard to swallow. Similarly, it's not infrequent to come across people on bikes (not Lance wannabes in superman gear, but average Joes and Janes on mountain bikes and cruisers) in the pedestrian lane.

2) Many pedestrians walk 2,3,4 or more abreast in the pedestrian lane, forcing joggers/runners into the bike lane or off the pavement. Going off the pavement is fine where there is grass or a trail (I run on soft surfaces whenever possible), but there are places that these don't exist.

3) It's a bit unclear to all involved as to what the protocol is during no-traffic hours. Is the bike lane still a bike lane, or are the bikers expected to make use of the 2 free lanes of roadway? And what to do with roller bladers, roller skaters, kids on bikes, etc? My take has always been that the latter group should use the bike lane during these times.

There are far too many groups using the park to turn this into another hipster/gentrifier/natives/newbies mind melt, even in jest.

These are really good points (and questions). I sympathize with the cyclists to some degree, but some of them just go too damn fast. On a sunny weekend day with the road crowded with walkers, runners, kids, strollers, little kids on bikes, dogs, horses, people throwing balls around, you really should not be riding your bike at full speed. And if the traffic light is red, the cyclists should stop, not curse and scream at pedestrians to get the hell out of their way.

The horseback riders piss me off, too, because I like to run on the dirt on the side of the road to protect my injury-prone joints. The riders seem to take the position that the entire unpaved area alongside the lake is "bridle path" and they will yell and scream if they see a runner on what they perceive as their turf. I even had a guy charge his horse at me. It would be nice if the actual bridle path was better marked. And considering how many runners like to run on the dirt by the side of the road, it would be really great if the parks department would just make an official dirt trail alongside the road.

drano

Bottom line is that neither path is really wide enough for the number of people that use them, even at "off-peak" times.

And yeah...it would be nice if they banned cars, but I don't see that happening.

jayce

Drano wrote: Bottom line is that neither path is really wide enough for the number of people that use them, even at "off-peak" times.

And yeah...it would be nice if they banned cars, but I don't see that happening.

I think that there was an agreement recently to try it out car free. i forget, but I'll dig around and find the annoucement I got. But there is momentum in that direction, thank god.

muteflute

this is starting to get closer to the basic problems. The first is that the bike- and pedestrian-lanes are far too small. It's ridiculous that they are the size that they are and that there is so much space for traffic. But, they are as they are. As I can tell, the following things can pretty universally be disapproved of:

1) walking groups who walk 3 or 4 abreast, forcing bicyclists to bike into traffic

2) fast road racers who clip or almost clip law-abiding people by running red lights when the road is open

3) bikers biking the wrong way

4) traffic

5) pedestrians feeling that they own the entire road and stepping out into traffic to prove it

What's the solution?

Well, the problem is that this falls into common debates about bicycle space on the road. On one side, bicyclists assert that it is incredibly dangerous to bicycle on the street, both because of cars and their fickle and ridiculous ways and because of pedestrians (many of whom, jaywalking, have basically completely disregarded me and forced me to come full stop almost-over-the-bars). The problem is that bicyclists are neither true vehicles nor are they pedestrians. They go too fast to be pedestrians and are far too small and slow to be vehicles. As a result, they get the worst of both worlds. Why do they seem to disregard traffic law? Because it takes a lot more effort to start and stop at every red light, because it's easy to go the wrong way up a one-way, and because most cyclists think it's ridiculous that we're considered vehicles.

What are people's needs for the park?

Road cyclists like having a space where they can train at 30 miles-an-hour and the park, with its road and mostly not-traffic, is perfect for that. There's plenty of space for pedestrians to use on the left, why shouldn't there be fast-moving bicycles on the right? When the park is closed to traffic, the traffic signals mean nothing (especially for moms and their kids), so it would be ridiculous to demand that bikes stop at red lights in the park at that time (and, it would render the park useless to bicyclists).

As for others, well, their needs are pretty straight-forward. Walkers have a walking lane (it should be expanded). Rollerbladers and kids on learning bikes can ride in an expanded bicycle lane (for non-training road cyclists). And traffic in the park should be banned.

The last problem, then, is this: how do people cross the road when the 30-mph road cyclists are out and there are no lights? Well, look. There aren't that many of them and there are huge gaps there. As long as you make sure there is plenty of space, the bicyclist can easily avoid you.

I just don't see why it's such a big deal, for anyone. Why can't people just frickin use the space wisely, knowing and accounting for the fact that other people, with other needs, use the space too?

muteflute

jayce wrote: [quote=Drano]Bottom line is that neither path is really wide enough for the number of people that use them, even at "off-peak" times.

And yeah...it would be nice if they banned cars, but I don't see that happening.

I think that there was an agreement recently to try it out car free. i forget, but I'll dig around and find the annoucement I got. But there is momentum in that direction, thank god.

I think that was central park--although maybe also Prospect Park, I don't know. That would be amazing.

I've probably seen you biking out there...when do you ride?

jayce

muteflute wrote: [quote=jayce][quote=Drano]Bottom line is that neither path is really wide enough for the number of people that use them, even at "off-peak" times.

And yeah...it would be nice if they banned cars, but I don't see that happening.

I think that there was an agreement recently to try it out car free. i forget, but I'll dig around and find the annoucement I got. But there is momentum in that direction, thank god.

I think that was central park--although maybe also Prospect Park, I don't know. That would be amazing.

I've probably seen you biking out there...when do you ride?

this morning. Tuesday mornings religiously. Bright yellow bike and yellow helmet. I'm easy to pick out. Not to mention I am usually singing. Which is you? (i'm on the slower side, with a top speed of only 30mph. i'm a cycling baby.)

and no, it was actually Prospect Park, believe it or not. I was thrilled. I'll find it, I swear.

rose

muteflute wrote: When the park is closed to traffic, the traffic signals mean nothing (especially for moms and their kids), so it would be ridiculous to demand that bikes stop at red lights in the park at that time (and, it would render the park useless to bicyclists).

Why do they mean nothing? Are cyclists legally allowed to ignore the traffic lights when there are no cars in the park? I'm not arguing with you -- this is something I've always wondered about. I certainly don't care if they go through the red lights when no one is crossing or waiting to cross the road. But if a pedestrian is crossing the road with a walk sign, is it really true that the cyclist is entitled to run the red light and the pedestrian has to get out of the way?