Getting spat at because of who i am

milayo

Hmmm…interesting choice of songs, despite the sarcasm. This spiritual refers to the harsh realities of slave life, and apparently, still holds meaning as an expression of current reality for people of African descent (no, not all, but it’s still performed...)

What is this reality?

One white man’s opinion:
“So, for example, what does it say about white rationality and white collective sanity, that in 1963--at a time when in retrospect all would agree racism was rampant in the United States, and before the passage of modern civil rights legislation--nearly two-thirds of whites, when polled, said they believed blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities--almost the same number as say this now, some forty-plus years later? What does it suggest about the extent of white folks' disconnection from the real world, that in 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities? Or that in May, 1968, seventy percent of whites said that blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities, while only seventeen percent said blacks were treated "not very well" and only 3.5 percent said blacks were treated badly?
...What does it say about whites' tenuous grip on mental health that in mid-August 1969, forty-four percent of whites told a Newsweek/Gallup National Opinion Survey that blacks had a better chance than they did to get a good paying job--two times as many as said they would have a worse chance?..... In other words, even when racism was, by virtually all accounts (looking backward in time), institutionalized, white folks were convinced there was no real problem. Indeed, even forty years ago, whites were more likely to think that blacks had better opportunities, than to believe the opposite (and obviously accurate) thing: namely, that whites were advantaged in every realm of American life.”

from Tim Wise, a white guy: http://www.zcommunications.org/what-kind-of-card-is-race-by-tim-wise
in the section called: Denial as an Intergenerational Phenomenon
also check out: http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/Obama.html

Kudos to MHA yes, for your eloquence, but more importantly for enhancing the debate with your insistence on acknowledging one of the major underlying realities in our society today.

Statements that make us cringe should also make us also go and think about it more.This is how we learn and grow to become mature adults.

alas, I’m writing on a thread about spitting. Good luck with all of that.
peace

cool the kid

I'm sure if polled a similar proportion of blacks would blame white people for problems they have control over

Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility. That's what I see in MHA's posts- I don't see anything fostering worthwhile discussion; I see rampant generalizations, hypocrisy and an abandonment of intellectual honesty and personal responsibility. Posting things that make people uncomfortable doesn't automatically equate to being "thought provoking".

hamilton

MHA, i have three questions i hope you will respond to,

You stated you worked at a firm where your peer, a white woman ,was paid $15,000.00 more then you for the same function, could you elaborate on that.

you implied that cool the kid calling your style eloquent ,was offensive.
milyo, stated there was an eloquence in your response, do you find that offensive.


this is something i've been told by numerous blacks and i hope someone can clarify their statements, that, the egyptians who built the pyramids were black.

thank you hamilton

bkjoy

Milayo wrote: Hmmm…interesting choice of songs, despite the sarcasm. This spiritual refers to the harsh realities of slave life, and apparently, still holds meaning as an expression of current reality for people of African descent (no, not all, but it’s still performed...)

What is this reality?

One white man’s opinion:
“So, for example, what does it say about white rationality and white collective sanity, that in 1963--at a time when in retrospect all would agree racism was rampant in the United States, and before the passage of modern civil rights legislation--nearly two-thirds of whites, when polled, said they believed blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities--almost the same number as say this now, some forty-plus years later? What does it suggest about the extent of white folks' disconnection from the real world, that in 1962, eighty-five percent of whites said black children had just as good a chance as white children to get a good education in their communities? Or that in May, 1968, seventy percent of whites said that blacks were treated the same as whites in their communities, while only seventeen percent said blacks were treated "not very well" and only 3.5 percent said blacks were treated badly?
...What does it say about whites' tenuous grip on mental health that in mid-August 1969, forty-four percent of whites told a Newsweek/Gallup National Opinion Survey that blacks had a better chance than they did to get a good paying job--two times as many as said they would have a worse chance?..... In other words, even when racism was, by virtually all accounts (looking backward in time), institutionalized, white folks were convinced there was no real problem. Indeed, even forty years ago, whites were more likely to think that blacks had better opportunities, than to believe the opposite (and obviously accurate) thing: namely, that whites were advantaged in every realm of American life.”

from Tim Wise, a white guy: http://www.zcommunications.org/what-kind-of-card-is-race-by-tim-wise
in the section called: Denial as an Intergenerational Phenomenon
also check out: http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/Obama.html

Kudos to MHA yes, for your eloquence, but more importantly for enhancing the debate with your insistence on acknowledging one of the major underlying realities in our society today.

Statements that make us cringe should also make us also go and think about it more.This is how we learn and grow to become mature adults.

alas, I’m writing on a thread about spitting. Good luck with all of that.
peace

Excellent article by Time Wise. He gets it.

ishtar

Cool The Kid wrote: Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, for many blacks those opportunities are seriously substandard and are not real opportunities to achieve economic/social/education equality with whites.

cool the kid

Ishtar wrote: [quote=Cool The Kid]Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, for many blacks those opportunities are seriously substandard and are not real opportunities to achieve economic/social/education equality with whites.

This is very true and a great example of this is the local HS

That is where a case can be made

But MHA speaks as though the white people who move into CH are the ones who pushed for substandard local schooling

bkjoy

Cool The Kid wrote: [quote=Ishtar][quote=Cool The Kid]Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, for many blacks those opportunities are seriously substandard and are not real opportunities to achieve economic/social/education equality with whites.

This is very true and a great example of this is the local HS

That is where a case can be made

But MHA speaks as though the white people who move into CH are the ones who pushed for substandard local schooling

Give it up, Cool The Kid. Wake up to the world around you and you may learn a thing or two.

park place

gato wrote: You alll sound like grade A f*ckfaces. And, thanks Urban Cow for posting your picture up here...cuz when I see you Ima spit a big one in your direction.

Could it be simply that you got a stank attitude? Yerrrsss...I think so. Stop behaving as if you are in the jungle and we are the other....I can see you from a mile away walking with your stupid-ass coffee all plugged into your headphones....you all look the same, talk the same....you hate us..have ZERO interaction with us.....AND YES YOU CAN'T WAIT TILL THEY GET RID OF US DARKIES....

So we spit at you....AND IM GOING TO KEEP SPITTING AT YOU TO......

DIE URBAN PIONEERS

Wait!

What are you trying to say here?

Don't sugar coat it.

Be blunt

park place

ProspectParkerLewis wrote: [quote=gato]you all look the same, talk the same....

What are you talking about?


I love it.

park place

[quote="MHA"]y past of gentrification & abandonment by the city in places like Crown Heights. . The difference between me and you is, you define yourself by said history... and are crippled by it. You can't even engage in a civil discussion with white people and look to overreact over anything. /quote]

Very true. You need to look at all of his posts. They are a study in rage.

The angriest man on Brooklynian.

How sad.

hamilton

Park Place wrote: [quote=gato]You alll sound like grade A f*ckfaces. And, thanks Urban Cow for posting your picture up here...cuz when I see you Ima spit a big one in your direction.

Could it be simply that you got a stank attitude? Yerrrsss...I think so. Stop behaving as if you are in the jungle and we are the other....I can see you from a mile away walking with your stupid-ass coffee all plugged into your headphones....you all look the same, talk the same....you hate us..have ZERO interaction with us.....AND YES YOU CAN'T WAIT TILL THEY GET RID OF US DARKIES....

So we spit at you....AND IM GOING TO KEEP SPITTING AT YOU TO......

DIE URBAN PIONEERS

Wait!

What are you trying to say here?

Don't sugar coat it.

Be blunt



being blunt is not his problem, smoking one too many is.

cool the kid

bkjoy wrote: [quote=Cool The Kid][quote=Ishtar][quote=Cool The Kid]Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, for many blacks those opportunities are seriously substandard and are not real opportunities to achieve economic/social/education equality with whites.

This is very true and a great example of this is the local HS

That is where a case can be made

But MHA speaks as though the white people who move into CH are the ones who pushed for substandard local schooling

Give it up, Cool The Kid. Wake up to the world around you and you may learn a thing or two.Au contraire, I think it is MHA and anyone who agrees with him who need to wake up to the world and learn a thing or two. All white people aren't evil slave owner descendant culture stealing rent raising boogeymen (or women). From MHA's posts I don't think he knows that. The sooner people like MHA get a clue the better off everyone in CH will be.

park place

Cool The Kid wrote: [quote=bkjoy][quote=Cool The Kid][quote=Ishtar][quote=Cool The Kid]Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, for many blacks those opportunities are seriously substandard and are not real opportunities to achieve economic/social/education equality with whites.

This is very true and a great example of this is the local HS

That is where a case can be made

But MHA speaks as though the white people who move into CH are the ones who pushed for substandard local schooling

Give it up, Cool The Kid. Wake up to the world around you and you may learn a thing or two.Au contraire, I think it is MHA and anyone who agrees with him who need to wake up to the world and learn a thing or two. All white people aren't evil slave owner descendant culture stealing rent raising boogeymen (or women). From MHA's posts I don't think he knows that. The sooner people like MHA get a clue the better off everyone in CH will be.

You are quite right.

Do you think you are one of the "white people who he laughs at every day?"

MHA seems to think he has cornered the marketing of suffering. Only he understands. He is right and you are wrong; always.

It's sad because that anger colors ones attitudes and you lose credibility as a thinker; as one who can critique effectively.

jeffrey

Park Place wrote: You are quite right.

Do you think you are one of the "white people who he laughs at every day?"

Park Place, in CTK's case, that would be highly unlikely.

cool the kid

Park Place wrote: [quote=Cool The Kid][quote=bkjoy][quote=Cool The Kid][quote=Ishtar][quote=Cool The Kid]Again not to say there aren't still inequalities today but I'm from the school of thought that everyone is responsible for themselves and has to make good with the opportunities they're handed- not continuously look for excuses (essentially) for handouts and reasons to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, for many blacks those opportunities are seriously substandard and are not real opportunities to achieve economic/social/education equality with whites.

This is very true and a great example of this is the local HS

That is where a case can be made

But MHA speaks as though the white people who move into CH are the ones who pushed for substandard local schooling

Give it up, Cool The Kid. Wake up to the world around you and you may learn a thing or two.Au contraire, I think it is MHA and anyone who agrees with him who need to wake up to the world and learn a thing or two. All white people aren't evil slave owner descendant culture stealing rent raising boogeymen (or women). From MHA's posts I don't think he knows that. The sooner people like MHA get a clue the better off everyone in CH will be.

You are quite right.

Do you think you are one of the "white people who he laughs at every day?"

MHA seems to think he has cornered the marketing of suffering. Only he understands. He is right and you are wrong; always.

It's sad because that anger colors ones attitudes and you lose credibility as a thinker; as one who can critique effectively.

This may blow some minds but I am black. I am the son of 1st gen African immigrants though, which may be why I don't understand his anger. There are harsh realities that def. fall in line with what he talks about- the scandal in the 81st precinct, the awful quality of public schools in the area, etc. But some hipsters moving into Crown Heights have absolutely nothing to do with that, which is a distinction I don't know that he can make.

But I think MHA is a very smart dude. However he is an incredibly angry and misguided dude. Dangerous and disheartening (but incredibly interesting) combination IMO.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else here live on Bergen St b/w Nostrand/NYA? I am trying to figure out if my old neighbors post here. One of the ladies next door saw us moving out- pretty black woman in her 40s who owns the brownstone w/her husband and 2 precious daughters- and said she 'hopes where we're moving is better than this'. Just kind of weird for her to say that as I've never voiced my displeasure w/the block with her. Maybe she just felt the same way I did.

mr. met

you all look the same, talk the same....

so do you

thebrooklynnative

it has nothing to do with you being white,those guys on franklin are jerks to everyone

mha

Wow. So much things to say. Firstly, I had a very weird thing happen. I have not been able to write anything since my last post. My password did not work, and even getting a new one rendered me incapable of posting anything. It was as if I was locked out. It was very frustrating.

I find it disturbing that Hamilton can make two blithe comments about race and no one took him to task about it -- namely -- the jest that the people who are spitting might be the descendants of some African tribe called the 'spittutsi' (I think I mispelled that) and the later comment of his need to sing 'nobody knows da trouble I've seen'. Kudos Milayo for gently making comment to that... It is obvious that Hamilton has little understanding of race, and its role in this country, indeed, the world. He asks me to help him understand if the great ancient cities of Egypt -- IN AFRICA -- were constructed by African people.... Okay. Suppose I said to him, "Hamilton, is it true that white people built the Eiffel Tower?' How does that sound? What would you extrapolate about me, if I had some hard time accepting that as IMPLICITLY true? Comments CTK?

Cool the Kid's commentary reads like sophisticated naivete'. His first generation story is a typical one, regardless of his color. Most immigrants to this country look at Black Americans with befuddlement, not understanding that what they are witnessing is the lasting affect of something truly incomprehensible to them. Weirdly, in a comment I made in response to BKjoy -- who defines HERSELF as a Black woman -- he accuses me of presuming she is Black. Dude, SHE SAID she is Black!

There is a great book written by Sterling Stukee called 'Slave Culture'. Stukee talks about self sabotage as a form of rebellion by the early African and African descendant people forced into enslavement. He describes that the enslaved often sabotage the very work that they did. If they were not going to profit from the fruit of their labor, then neither would their captors. This meant destroying crops, property and even themselves. Stukee subtly makes the argument that the pathos found in the Black underclass is quite similar to these earlier subversive actions against white supremacy.

Case in point: I had a conversation with a brother who is the maintenance man of the building beside the one in which I reside. He shared with me his frustration with the young brothers who chide him for keeping the very place where they reside clean: " 'Why you takin' care of the Jew man's shit?' they say. "And I always respond, but YOU live here! This is YOUR castle! Why destroy your home?" In my mind, this tension between caretaker and Black tenant is a subversive reaction to the awesome, depressive nature of powerlessness. Indeed, this is documented throughout social psychology writings that describe, urban blight, and the concomitant depreciation of private and public property whenever there are absentee landlords. To even get into conversation about it from a MORAL stance is naive'; it would be like condemning a hurricane for the damage that it does, or the victim of a violent crime for acting out of their pain. This is social phenomena, and should be viewed dispassionately, and analysed as such. My attempt to present that is skewed as angry and misdirected rhetoric at whitefolks???

And this is, for the most part what Cool the Kid, Hamilton, and Park Place fail to see. This is their undoing. They have a SHODDY sense of history, and therefore, a skewed perspective that they cloak in a moral tone, and present it to us.

Cool the Kid's first generation ignorance speaks volumes for not understanding why the spitters spit. Hamilton's joking commentary about the 'tribes in Africa' is offensive, and Cool the Kid doesn't even take him to task about that! Amazing. He reminds me of Black Republicans who look the other way when white Republicans make constant, casual racist commentary about Black people, yet these Black Republicans spend INORDINATE amounts of time being critical of Black people whose opinions they are eager to tell whitefolks they do NOT share (what's your take on affirmative action, or the new legislation in Arizon, CTK?); interesting. CTK are you a Republican?

Cool the Kid characterizes me as misdirected, and angry, and I believe he even said I am DANGEROUS! This is an incredible thing to say. I wonder what he thinks about Malcolm? CTK, what DO you think about Malcolm? I see myself no different than he, and indeed, I am not saying anything he didn't say. How about Marcus? CTK, what do you think about him? Or, maybe a little closer to home, how about Amilcar? Or Nkruma? Or Maathi? Or Marley?

What's weird is that there is someone out there who responded to Park Place by saying essentially, 'when I see white people like you I always spit, and I hate people like you', and CTK doesn't take him to task, but my attempt to create understanding is deemed misguided, misdirected, and, angry -- as if the word angry somehow diffuses the points that I have made. CTK's LACK of anger bespeaks a lack of EXPERIENCE, quite frankly, and he is NO DOUBT the type of Black person white people LOVE to be around; the type that will get the honest comment, "You're not like the rest of them. You're 'different'... ' And he won't understand why. He just doesn't get it. He sort of reminds me of Tiger Woods, who was quick to distance himself from Black people, who is on record having made several disparaging comments about Black men. Weirdly, CTK makes implicitly disparaging comments about Black men as well....

I see a refernce that it is assumed that I think white people are the cause of EVERY problem that I might have personally, and what Black people might have generally, and I balk at such a comment. I think I have been very careful in how I characterise whitefolks here, and it's bizaare to me, that he reads what I have written this way. CTK, for the record, yes, I am smart -- VERY smart actually; yes, I am angry, VERY angry actually, no I am not misguided, and if frank, truthful dialogue is considered dangerous, then yes, I am dangerous, very dangerous actually. CTK makes a comment about me saying something about substandard schooling; I have NO idea what he is referring to .

Note what Cool the Kid says here:
"I am the son of 1st gen[eration] African immigrants though, which may be why I don't understand his anger. "

Right, you DON'T understand the anger. I am curious about your African ancestry. Africa is a huge place. Where are you from Nigeria? Ghana?

I too am the son of first generation African immigrants, but unlike you, my family is from the African Diaspora, and we have always seen our link to the very Motherland that your family comes from. I am a proud Pan-Africanist, and despite not being the descendant of the Africans brought into the United States of America, I do understand the link to them, as the history of the people from the land of my ancestors is much like theirs.

I hesitate in being confrontational here. The greater portion of this thread has been about ego quibbling, and we have not delved into trying to understand the topic under which we have convened to have dialogue. This conversation has quickly devolved into a pissing contest, and what seems to have been pushed to the side is deconstructing the dynamic between the offensive act -- i.e. spitting -- and the offended party. I will restate my thought about this: I believe what we are witnessing is a latent result of the tremendous burden of racism. Gentrification is the process by which a socio-economic group of people are displaced by another socio-economic group. Race is an element here because it is a reliable pre-cursor to accurately discern which group one is a member of - the displacers or the displaced. Simply to limit your view of the spitter's actions as immoral is to miss the bigger picture; to avoid dealing with history, to be IGNORANT of space, and TIME. This is an ignorance CTK admits freely, yet from this ignorant stance proclaims judgment; wow. amazing.

I quoted it before, and I will quote it again: "The DEEPER our compassion, the GREATER our wisdom, and the LESSER our vexations."

History is EVER present around us, please, think of this the next time you hear "Haaaaaak, ptooey"

Alluta Continua.

(sorry for the typos...)

outside child

MHA, this one is for you ;-)

hamilton

MHA

you didn't answer my inquiry about why a white woman who was doing the same job as you, received $15,000. 00 more in salary.

my question to you ,did black egyptians build the pyramids, wasn't answered .

the spittusi bit was a joke , just a joke , lighten up.

please try to respond in 2000 words or less

outside child

Hamilton wrote: MHA


the spittusi bit was a joke , just a joke , lighten up.

Hamilton, with all due respect, can you understand at all how this "joke" not only was not funny but offensive to many? Please answer in 2000 words or less ;-)

mha

Outside Child, thank you! I love the song. I was up dancing!

(Sigh) Hamilton, regarding the difference in salary between myself and my younger, whiter peer, I was told that she was considered more likely to garner respect by those in the company therefore that warranted her making more than me, and becoming my supervisor -- despite that I had to teach her everything she knew; I don't know if the people you refer to as 'black egyptians' came in any OTHER color, and if the pyramids are in Africa, then it stands to reason AFRICANS BUILT THEM. Oh, by the way, there are also Pyramids in Ethiopia, as well as all over where we call Meso-America; in fact there are pyramids in Mexico, and also found amongst ancient ruins are the Olmec heads which are Africoid in appearance. All of this is thoroughly documented in Ivan Van Sertima's 'They Came Before Columbus'. Hamilton -- pardon me, but I believe I DID respond to your question about them, it's not my fault if you can't read between the lines; regarding your joke, our ideological dissonance is made clear by your inability to see why I don't find it funny, and my own inability to appreciate your humor. You see, you might not be aware of this, but you have a perception of Black people obviously the result of your very topical relationship with them. And I say this even if you too happen to be Black, or even if your are in an intimate relationship with a Black person. No one aware of Black people would make a comment like that, or would understand the nuance between Cool the Kid's branding of my words as 'eloquent yet misdirected' and Milayo's characterization of it as 'eloquent, angry and poignant'. And it's weird that you ignore everything she said, and only use her description of my discourse as an attempt to find contradiciton in my point of view; Interesting.

Whitefolks, I tellya....

outside child

MHA wrote: Outside Child, thank you! I love the song. I was up dancing!

mha

And you know what's crazy about Cool the Kid's commentary is that he lives in New York, and sees Black powerlessness (and anger) as solely a function of Black people feeling sorry for themselves. Check it -- 20% of all Black men in this city are unemployed; 20% !! Is that simply circumstantial result of Black men being shiftless and lazy and immoral? But to perceive them as such, REGARDLESS of who does the perceiving -- isn't there something racist about that perception? Twenty percent! That's on in every 5 black men you see -- at least. In this neighborhood, I am confident the number is more than that.

So whitefolks, don't be comforted by CTK's stance; don't say, 'You see, he's Black and he's doesn't say what that angry MHA guy is saying, so MHA has to be wrong...' CTK us misguided. CTK is living in a bubble if he thinks Black pissedoffness is somehow without a context.

http://www.citylimits.org/magazines/121/may-2010

It's disingenuous for ANYONE to write this off in a moral sweeping statement about misdirected anger and other forms of adhominem rubbish.

whynot_31

As a long time subscriber who is glad the magazine is back, I think City Limits was being very tame this month under its new editor. As its first black editor, he opened his tenure with a series of articles on race. There had to be more than a little pressure to be inoffensive and "tame" as a result. (MHA links the issue above)

Even still, I have an urge to first make sure the articles aren't dismissed on the basis of editor's race.

For those into stats, please continue to read.
Everyone else should skip to the stuff after the italics:

It is important to remember that the "unemployment rate" (a term with a specific definition) measures those actively looking for work. Many estimates put the rate of black men not participating in the documented workforce at much higher.

Damn, now I need to find a cite. ---I'll just be lazy and say look at page 4 for stats by US metro areas:
http://www4.uwm.edu/ced/publications/race_joblessness08.pdf

Ok, back to NYC, with a specific focus on Crown Heights :

http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPI_NeighborhoodUnemployment_NYC.pdf

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dycd/downloads/ppt/Dr_a_sum_pres_nyc.ppt#354,1,The Deteriorating Labor Market and Economic Well Being of the %.

some stats are from 2000 census, but most are newer:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/neigh_info/bk08_info.shtml
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/bk8profile.pdf#profile
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/pub/bkneeds_2010.pdf#bk08

Ok, those you who hate stats, it is safe to read again.

None of this is particularly surprising... right? None of this is new either. Yes, the problem of black unemployment became worse as a result of the economic downturn, but the unemployment rates have always been much higher for blacks than other groups. This is especially the case with regard to black men.

Yup, to paraphrase Milayo's, bkjoy's and others posts above: It often sucks to be black in America. Tim Wise gets it.

If we are going to seriously have this conversation, we also need to acknowledge that the unemployment problem can not solely be attributed to "employer racism", there is also a very real skills gap.

The article I post below points out that Brooklyn has a function illiteracy rate of 37%!! (page 19). Are many of these gaps the result of "societal racism" that took the the form of crappy schools, health care, etc.? Absolutely.

MHA, the conversation you are attempting here is a lot to expect out of this forum and many of its wanna-be-witty posters.

The real issues to be discussed are things like:

"why is this the case?"

"how did this come to be?"

"what should be done?"

"where the hell do we start with this issue?"

"how did those who made it out of unemployment and poverty manage to do so?"

"what is to be done with (or for) those who -for whatever reason- do not believe that getting an education will result in a job that provides a real standard of living and respect? ...you know, those who simply hang out and spit at folks who walk by..."

For those actually interested, here's a really well written and researched article on the topic by the Community Service Society, the parent agency of City Limits (that Urban Affairs magazine referenced by MHA above):

http://www.cssny.org/userimages/downloads/Closing The Skills Gap_FINAL.pdf

I encourage everyone to read it if we are going to have an actual conversation.

Carpal tunnel is real, I'll likely continue to mostly lurk. My lurking should be taken as neither agreement or disagreement with MHA. It should be take as skepticism that this medium will result in a genuine conversation.

...maybe a night at a quiet bar is the way to go. Invitation would be extended only to those serious about the conversation; you know who you are. (you know who you aren't as well)

P.S. Spitting is a whole different conversation. Like I opined above (on page 1 of this crazy thread) the folks who spit are angry at everyone, perhaps more so at whites, but angry at everyone.... it's best to avoid them regardless of why they are angry, or whether one feels they are justified in their anger or not. Spit is nasty.

mha

I will read the articles that you refer to here.

outside child

whynot_31 you are a funny and intelligent individual LOL!

hamilton

Outside Child wrote: [quote=Hamilton]MHA


the spittusi bit was a joke , just a joke , lighten up.

Hamilton, with all due respect, can you understand at all how this "joke" not only was not funny but offensive to many? Please answer in 2000 words or less ;-)


what i find really offensive, is gatos Apr.28th rant against urban cowgirl, was that ok with you?
the joke was presented to ridicule a thread about dirt bags spitting at people and not written to demean African Americans.

jeffrey

(Just speaking as a regular user, not in a Moderator capacity)

Re: gato, we all have the choice of sinking to lowest level present or continuing a meaningful, honest (and perhaps uncomfortable, to many folks) dialogue about ghosts that need to be dealt with in the open if we are all to move forward. Hardly a legitimate excuse to exhibit the same behavior back at others, as most here are not looking for a race to the bottom.

Re: the jokes, I am guessing it's just an awareness issue. 50 or 100 years ago people would think nothing of jokes depicting Irish as poor, worthless, brawling drunkards. The modern day example would be to say that the Bartel Pritchard Square heroin junkies must be some classic Irish/Celtic tribe.

Speaking as someone with Irish (among other) roots, that's not very tactful, to say the least.

I think that's where folks are coming from about all that.

whynot_31

Hamilton wrote: [quote=Outside Child][quote=Hamilton]MHA


the spittusi bit was a joke , just a joke , lighten up.

Hamilton, with all due respect, can you understand at all how this "joke" not only was not funny but offensive to many? Please answer in 2000 words or less ;-)


what i find really offensive, is gatos Apr.28th rant against urban cowgirl, was that ok with you?
the joke was presented to ridicule a thread about dirt bags spitting at people and not written to demean African Americans.

Hamilton,
Outside Child has the same level of obligation to confront Gato's posts that I have regarding yours: Zero. ....Thankfully.

Outside Child,
Please don't be distracted by off topic posts.

Meanwhile, we seem to have a group of posters that are up to the task Jeffery articulates. Type away....