Why are rules different for hasidics

lexie z

Can someone explain to me why it is ok for the hasidic, school bus drivers to stop diagonally in the middle of Bedford to let the kids off the bus. I have never seen anything like it. Where are the cops??? In my neighborhood the school bus stops in it's lane and the kids get off. I am so over all the "special treatment" in Williamsburg, it is complete BS. If Blacks and Puerto-Ricans in Bed Stuy wanted to get there own little NYPD looking scooters and "patrol" the hood they would be thrown in jail. I need some serious explanations on why the hasidics get such special treatment because I am finding myself being more and more bothered by the community as a whole.....

modsquad

Are you naive? All the Hasidic communities enjoy special security considerations since 9/11. Do you think a terrorist is going to stop for the little stop sign on the side of a bus? What precinct captain in his right mind is going to start ticketing the bus drivers and risk that possibility? Any community can organize their own security. No different then Black Muslims patrolling black housing projects or private security patrolling the UES.

ben

many school buses stop diagonally so that no one can pass when the kids are being let off. It's a safety issue and is meant to force people to obey the law, it's illegal to pass a school bus that is loading or unloading children. Not sure how this action inconveniences anyone since you're not supposed to pass anyway. However, it does protect the kids, all school buses should do this.

homeowner

Its not special treatment. Several years ago the State Legislature changed the traffic laws regarding school buses in NYC. Prior to that time, it was legal to pass a stopped school bus in the city, although it was illegal in the rest of the state. They changed the law to make it illegal in NYC as well.

Buses are suppose to be equiped with those little signs that come out when the bus stops and the flashers go on. Many older buses don't have them. In addition, many drivers in the city do not stop at all. Therefore, the hassidim have instructed their drivers to block the street so that traffic can't pass when they unload their kids. Other non-Hassidic companies do it as well, but you see it 100% of the time with the Hassidic companies.

I'm not going to say the Hassidim don't get special treatment, but on this one, they are indeed in the right, and all of the drivers (and bikers) that try and pass them when they are stopped to load or unload kids are breaking the law.

d_luxx

Wasn't a little hasidic boy killed by a school bus recently? I think it happened in Borough park about 2 or 3 months ago. Maybe that accident prompted a greater awareness of safety.

Like the posters above have pointed out - it is illegal to pass a school bus in either direction, therefore it doesn't matter if the bus is blocking the road. I believe its illegal to pass a school bus when they are loading or unloading kids in almost every state, and considering the fact that nyc drivers don't have the best reputation for following traffic laws, I can understand why its a good idea to position the bus that way.

loosegoose

Ditto - Not special treatment - a bus does this everyday in front of my apt in prospect heights.

boygabriel

homeowner wrote: I'm not going to say the Hassidim don't get special treatment, but on this one, they are indeed in the right, and all of the drivers (and bikers) that try and pass them when they are stopped to load or unload kids are breaking the law.

completely agree.

dreifuss

I realize this is a touchy subject and has the potential to get out of hand.

The school bus thing I haven never noticed, aside from that the original poster asks some good questions.

I am all for community watches and people working to ensure safety in their neighborhoods, however, I don't believe any group of people should be able to have their own "police" force equipped with squad cars that mimic the official NYPD cars.

I'm not aware of other groups that have them. This blurs the line of vigilantism. The terrorism angle does not justify this. While certain groups of Terrorists certainly have hatred for Jews they are not singling them out in their activities in this country. Their actions are geared towards us all equally

whynot_31

Other neighborhood groups have them.... (aquick google search produced the following):

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/01/21/2010-01-21_fundraising_surge_brings_back_manhattan_beach_patrol.html

http://www.clintonhillblog.com/2008/05/14/clinton-washington-neighborhood-patrol/

http://www.neighborhoodlink.com/Cambria_Heights_Civic_Association_Civilian_Patrol/home

but yes, Jewish communities seem to utilize them the most. I've been told the debate you cite occurs within the community as well as from outside
http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/46833/

I think if you asked "them", they'd tell you that "crime prevention, not "terrorism prevention" is the main objective.

http://crownheights.info/

http://crownheights.info/index.php?catid=23&blogid=1

...the comments section on the above sites not always P.C. (I link, but do not necessarily endorse)

lexie z

My issue with the diagonal school bus stop is that of safety for every other biker and car on the street.... The school buses are huge and it is dangerous. I have never seen it anywhere else in BK (thanks for pointing out it happens in PH).... The stop sign should be sufficient, I think everyone who drives knows to stop at the stop sign......

loosegoose

Sorry, I don't think you could ever rely on a stop sign attached to a school bus to protect a kid's safety. Half the drivers here treat stop lights as optional, much less retractable stop signs.

And yes, other neighborhoods have patrols. It was big news recently that Manhattan Beach had to cut theirs due to lack of funding. I have a friend out there and used to see the patrol cars (which looked nothing like NYPD) riding around. Not a jewish neighborhood. I'm sure there are others - it doesn't seem like anything to fuss over.

eggcream

I think this quote of yours pretty much sums it up eh

"because I am finding myself being more and more bothered by the community as a whole....."

lexie z

@ Eggcream....

Have you ever rode your bike through Williamsburg? It is more dangerous manuvering around mini vans and people than any other place in the city. I personally feel like the hasidic community thinks that there rules are separate from the rest of Brooklyn.... That really sums it up.

homeowner

Lexie Z wrote: The stop sign should be sufficient, I think everyone who drives knows to stop at the stop sign......

The problem is if you are someone who got your driver's license more than a couple of years ago you wouldn't necessarily know the law has changed. There wasn't a large public service announcement about it at the time and for those who are old and set in their ways, driving past a stopped bus even with the cute little sign sticking out of the side is force of habit.

And yes, they do think the rules for them are different (the chosen people thing should probably be a clue), but in many ways its an interesting NYC juxtaposition. Its amazing to me that in Crown Heights where there were riots between Hasidim and blacks a few decades ago, it seems everyone gets along better than the Hasidim and hipsters do in Williamsburg.

supreme_ian

talk that shit Lexie !!!

i feel your pain on so many levels .. that shit is beyond outta control there.. but they did suffer a HEAVY loss in the form of the 1 way only on kent ave !!

but then again they did make a bike lane vanish !!!!

money = power & they get MONEY !!

ahahahahah

let me chanel my Chuck D & say FIGHT THE POWER !!!!!

montgomery rogers

I ride up Bedford most mornings. The buses should definitely pull up the diagonal. No vehicles or cyclists would stop otherwise. Most cyclists still don't.

However - I wish the kids would look before running out to the bus. Even with the bus pulled up close to the sidewalk, cyclists can still pass through. In the fall, I saw someone blow past a stopped bus and hit a kid. Having the bus pulled over is great, but it gives a false sense of security. You still need to look both ways. I'm surprised that this isn't something the parents and drivers encourage.

boygabriel

loosegoose wrote: Sorry, I don't think you could ever rely on a stop sign attached to a school bus to protect a kid's safety. Half the drivers here treat stop lights as optional, much less retractable stop signs.

This is completely accurate. The buses should fully be able to block traffic in order to stop it. Most bikers don't stop. And the only reason cars do is because they can't get by.

By the same token, the buses screech to a halt and abruptly turn across traffic, frequently failing to check to see if there are bicyclists right next to them. They're going to kill one soon if they haven't already.

Both sides need to be more careful than they are.

homeowner wrote: Its amazing to me that in Crown Heights where there were riots between Hasidim and blacks a few decades ago, it seems everyone gets along better than the Hasidim and hipsters do in Williamsburg.

Yeah well, let's see how well the blacks get along with the Hasidim if all the sudden Hasidim said, "some of you dress with baggy clothes and that offends our religious sensibilities, please walk elsewhere" which is basically a parallel to what is ostensibly at the crux of their general anti-biking stance.

Young 20-something Williamsburg residents (who are largely NOT hipsters BTW) aren't rioting, but they sure are intentionally being confronted by Hasidim about various aspects of their perfectly reasonable lifestyle (biking, girls showing their ankles)

eggcream wrote: I think this quote of yours pretty much sums it up eh

"because I am finding myself being more and more bothered by the community as a whole....."

Well they frequently impose their beliefs as a monolithic community, beliefs that are at odds with modern society in general, and Brooklyn/NYC specifically. So it's understandable that some people are increasingly having trouble living comfortably with them.

This is by no means a defense of anyone mistreating or being oppressive to any individual, but as a community group, there are certainly many legitimate points of conflict.

homeowner

boygabriel wrote: Yeah well, let's see how well the blacks get along with the Hasidim if all the sudden Hasidim said, "some of you dress with baggy clothes and that offends our religious sensibilities, please walk elsewhere" which is basically a parallel to what is ostensibly at the crux of their general anti-biking stance.

Young 20-something Williamsburg residents (who are largely NOT hipsters BTW) aren't rioting, but they sure are intentionally being confronted by Hasidim about various aspects of their perfectly reasonable lifestyle (biking, girls showing their ankles)

I don't think that the women in CH dress so differrently from women in Williamsburg. Yet, I've never seen a man ask a woman to change the way she dresses or not walk or ride down a particular street. As a matter of fact, I see plenty of Hasidic families walking up and down EP where there is a bike path often used by single female bikers without the vitrol that is occuring in Williamsburg. And there are more bikers on EP on nice days than there are on the Bedford bike path.

boygabriel

It's possible the Hasidim in CH aren't as conservative as the ones in Williamsburg. It's not even all Williamsburg Hasidim that oppose the bike paths. Just the most vocal ones, and the ones with more of the power to direct their group interests and political pressure.

Bedford Avenue is also probably the most important street for Brooklyn Hasidim. They view it as the broadway of their community, and I think the symbolism of whores (their word) riding right through their 'center of town' was too much for them to handle.

Anyway, if it's not about women's "decency," the Hasidim shouldn't have specifically cited it during their massive opposition to the Bedford Avenue bike lane.

(edited to provide the URL link)

arlette

I grew up in Williamsburg and lived right in the heart of it. The buses have been doing this since I was a kid and that is a while ago.

walkathon

ABC News at 11 p.m. on Wednesday night did a piece on the large number of cars that do not stop in Manhattan when school buses stop. They said so far this year, city-wide, over 1,800 tickets have been written for those not stopping for schoolbuses.

boygabriel

Walkathon wrote: ABC News at 11 p.m. on Wednesday night did a piece on the large number of cars that do not stop in Manhattan when school buses stop. They said so far this year, city-wide, over 1,800 tickets have been written for those not stopping for schoolbuses.

That's the only way things will change. I hope they write more tickets.