Whats with the Racial Undertones on this board?

cool the kid

Outside Child wrote: [quote=MHA]Okay -- I gotta take issue here. Outside Child, I really think you need to show me the 'coded racist stuff' here.

For example, when people ask the "is it safe" questions, I see it in both the answers and the questions, that is just one instance

I don't understand how that is racist. CH is a primarily black area... so it's not unreasonable to assume that of the many people living here, the few who commit crimes will probably be black. If Flushing was a high crime area, would it be racist against Chinese people to ask what blocks are safe? And being that the people who ask the questions generally know nothing about the area, I don't see the problem with them asking about the safety of the neighborhood before they commit to living here. I can understand if one makes a leap of faith based on scraps of news bites and stuff and says something like 'CH is full of nothing but criminals and poor people', but I don't see the racism in just asking a question...

mha

I might have missed the nuance, but I don't see the 'racism' either. Racism is a huge word. I guess 'racial prejudice' can fall under the umbrella of 'racism', but when I hear the word 'racism', I'm thinking 'hate'.

As much as I wave my red,black&green around, I too want to know 'is it safe' sometimes, and I don't think I am a racist. At the same time, I can understand the presumptions of a statement as 'is it safe', and I can see how often repeated statements just like that can be irritating. I often feel the trepidation of the 'Isitsafers' walk by, with their heads lowered and eyes fixed to the sidewalk. So I too understand the anger. I don't think it's racism though. I think it is at worst prejudgement based on ignorance -- and I don't use the word ignorance as a pejorative, but objectively: those who just don't know --yet.

I rarely ever walk on the residential side of Franklin between Park Place and Prospect. There are always what I PRESUME to be neer-do-wells, and when they are not there, rats scurry about from the garbage cans to the empty lot beside the housing. When the brothers (who live in VERY close proximity to me) are in the midst of their herb-for-cash transactions, I never walk through the group, but rather I cross the street, because, I ask the same question: Is it safe? I would rather not take the chance. Racial prejudice as concept needs to be reconstructed as action not necessarily based on immoral preconceptions, but rather actions based on the lack of information.

We all use racial prejudice to assess who we walk by, and who walks by us. I for instance, don't perceive the frail, pale, waif-like white women who walk by me as threats, and I am confident that they presume that I am a threat -- not necessarily due to race, but also due to gender. The dudes -- the Black dudes -- who yell out 'CriiiiiiiiiiiiP!' -- I think it's safe to prejudge them and to cross the street.

CTK, I actually frequent places where I am often the only Black face amidst a sea of Chinese people, and I have to agree with you. There are streets in Chinatown that I would NEVER walk through by myself. I see them and say, 'Well, there's a shortcut to Hell', because I ask, 'Is it safe?' I PRESUME my would-be assailants are some young Chinese toughs running on walls and kicking me in the nads -- seriously.

I think the Isitsafers become suspect to Bluesea1015 and Outside Child because race is a touchy subject, and Black peole are so rubbed raw by the frequent 'white normative gaze', and quite frankly, whitefolks sully their reputation with presumed white skin privilege issues. And here is the irony, if one of the Isitsafers got hurt, that would make the street safe for all of us.

Some of you whitefolks don't know the precious value given to your skin. Seriously. You guys are the safest people in the neighborhood. For instance, when that kid got shot on Lincoln and Franklin, witness to the awful act was a woman (white) walking with her momma and her baby boy. She reportedly said that she believes that the dude doing the shooting WAITED for her and her momma to pass before pushing the other guy's brains out with bullets; waited....As it turns out, there were other witness to the shooting -- Black witnesses -- and at least one of them said something along the lines of -- 'homeboy just started shootin' '.

I recall going to the Korean grocery store on St. Johns and Franklin late one night. Sitting on the curb of the sidewalk inches from where the sidewalk meets the street was this young white dude, bleeding from the head. He was conscious, and either in shock or drunk. Some kids had hit him with a bottle. I told him whatever he does, he need go to the hospital. Cops came up and gave me the look over and asked him if everything was okay. The next week that overhead cop tower loomed.... In conversation with someone about it, we remarked that yeah, we know it's usually there preceding the Labor Day festivities, but still, wasn't it kinda early for it?
Isitsafers, your blood is SO precious. Within your veins runs the future of Crown Heights. We Black people wouldn't dream of touching a fair hair on your bodies, believe me.

Take horticulture and cleanliness for example. My Black brothers and sisters make habit out of hampering my attempts to plant flowers, and keep the general surrounds clean, but they wouldn't dream of doing the same to the property that belongs to the whitefolks on my block. It blows my mind that we can be so self destructive, yet, if we hate 'them white people' so much, why is it that their property is treated with such respect? It's not a rhetorical question: Fear.

We know that white life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is valued more than Black life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We just do. We value white life more than we value Black life.; our own lives. There is less consequence to destroying the life, damaging the liberty and property, and marring the happiness of Black lives -- than white lives. So, Isitsafers, don't worry. As my people say, "Yu seafe mon, you seafe."

sandcastler

Subject: Sly and the Family Stone: Everyday People

thebrooklynnative

Cool The Kid wrote: [quote=Outside Child][quote=MHA]Okay -- I gotta take issue here. Outside Child, I really think you need to show me the 'coded racist stuff' here.

For example, when people ask the "is it safe" questions, I see it in both the answers and the questions, that is just one instance

I don't understand how that is racist. CH is a primarily black area... so it's not unreasonable to assume that of the many people living here, the few who commit crimes will probably be black. If Flushing was a high crime area, would it be racist against Chinese people to ask what blocks are safe? And being that the people who ask the questions generally know nothing about the area, I don't see the problem with them asking about the safety of the neighborhood before they commit to living here. I can understand if one makes a leap of faith based on scraps of news bites and stuff and says something like 'CH is full of nothing but criminals and poor people', but I don't see the racism in just asking a question...

Like I previously said before there is nothing wrong about asking about the saftey of a neighborhood. That is absolutely normal,BUT WHEN YOU START YOUR QUESTION OF WITH I AM A WHITE FEMALE,OR WHITE MALE (SO ON AND SO ON) that is extremely offensive!THAT IS LIKE SAYING I AM WHITE ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS AREA A THREAT TO ME.THAT IS UNCALLED FOR,IF YOU NEED PROOF OF SUCH POST I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!

ishtar

TheBrooklynNative wrote: Like I previously said before there is nothing wrong about asking about the saftey of a neighborhood. That is absolutely normal,BUT WHEN YOU START YOUR QUESTION OF WITH I AM A WHITE FEMALE,OR WHITE MALE (SO ON AND SO ON) that is extremely offensive!THAT IS LIKE SAYING I AM WHITE ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS AREA A THREAT TO ME.THAT IS UNCALLED FOR,IF YOU NEED PROOF OF SUCH POST I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!

Message :!:

cool the kid

TheBrooklynNative wrote:

Like I previously said before there is nothing wrong about asking about the saftey of a neighborhood. That is absolutely normal,BUT WHEN YOU START YOUR QUESTION OF WITH I AM A WHITE FEMALE,OR WHITE MALE (SO ON AND SO ON) that is extremely offensive!THAT IS LIKE SAYING I AM WHITE ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS AREA A THREAT TO ME.THAT IS UNCALLED FOR,IF YOU NEED PROOF OF SUCH POST I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!

OK, first of all you need to relax.

Second of all, I think there IS a double standard in what is expected of people in CH based on the color of their skin, and while it is wrong to a degree for someone to presume this without knowing anything about the neighborhood, to a degree these worries are justified. When I lived there I didn't say hello to EVERY person on my block, and there were a lot of black people who just went about their business and didn't really interact with anyone from what I saw... as black people in the neighborhood it seems they have that right. But unless I'm mistaken, the general sentiment amongst the black people in CH is that it is roud for white people to do the same, and that they should go out of their way to be friendly and get to know their neighbors (especially if they decide to get nosy when there is a shooting or w/e).

Plus I know many white people who live in areas like CH, Bushwick etc who have faced harassment and sometimes physical harm just because of the color of their skin. I'm sure such stories gain momentum and come up when people look to make the decision to move into areas like CH, which prompts people to ask if such occurrences are regular here. Having personally seen some of this with my own eyes I know it's not some once in a blue moon kind of thing.

I don't think these people think ALL the black people in the neighborhood are a threat to them. They probably wouldn't consider moving there if they thought that were even a possibility. But when u have a neighborhood in which a storefront is blasting messages from a dude calling white people "devils", and people muttering under their breath "white cracker bitch" at white women on the street, or a marked difference in service at certain stores based on the color of one's skin, when word of such instances get out to people looking to move to the area certain questions are gonna be asked of people in the know. I don't think anyone looking to move to CH is dumb enough to think ALL black people are dangerous, and if that is what your anger is predicated upon I think you need to step back and look at the plausibility of your assumptions.

nearnostrand

Ishtar wrote: [quote=TheBrooklynNative]Like I previously said before there is nothing wrong about asking about the saftey of a neighborhood. That is absolutely normal,BUT WHEN YOU START YOUR QUESTION OF WITH I AM A WHITE FEMALE,OR WHITE MALE (SO ON AND SO ON) that is extremely offensive!THAT IS LIKE SAYING I AM WHITE ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS AREA A THREAT TO ME.THAT IS UNCALLED FOR,IF YOU NEED PROOF OF SUCH POST I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!

Message :!:

For real?? I am Black and I have asked people numerous times if me and my Black behind should be worried when traveling into certain places that are predominantly white - certain small towns in Pennsylvania, backwoods of Alabama, even certain sections of Bensonhurst (I'm sorry but it's true).

Why is it "uncalled for"? It is normal to be afraid of what you don't know, especially when all you may have heard previously is negative - AND especially if the vast amount of crime in the area is actually being committed by members from the majority group. I would prefer someone be up front and allow me the opportunity to fully enlighten them. What you are offended by is actually an opening to greater dialogue. It gives the chance to let them know that not just race, but socio-economic factors play into our safety issues - a concept that many, young and old, White or Black, have not had to discuss in any real way. For example, out of my 5 co-workers (all of whom are white) only 1 of them had ever considered the lasting effects of the economic suppression on the Black community in America and its resultant effects on communities today. And these are college educated grown people, most over 40. Don't be offended, take advantage of the opportunity.

White people, I am not offended at all when you describe yourself as such when making your safety queries. You are not hurting my feelings. I say let me know who I'm dealing with so I can better understand the root of your fear and concern. There is crime here, but I'm not the criminal element that they fear. I am the person who has the opportunity to teach them that the vast majority of their fears may be unfounded - but still tell them to take off the earphones, put away the iphone, stop acting like you're still back home in hamlet that you came from and walk with purpose like we all do around here - Black, White or otherwise.

As to the actual question posed at the top of the thread - there is a lot that we still don't know about each other, nor understand. We use trigger words, phrases, and examples that we don't even know we inflaming someone or triggering memories in others of certain negative situations. When boprey talked about his situation with the police on the roof, it automatically made me think of various situations that involved the police and the treatment the I and others received - which wasn't as pleasant and made me walk away thinking, what the hell is wrong with White people?When MHA talked about the Vespa incident, it made me think of the time that I went out of my way to drive to a totally different neighborhood to return a lost wallet to someone who looked like me, and instead of being graciously thanked, any appreciation that came my way was as afterthought after suspicion and the questioning had subsided - which made me walk away thinking, what the hell is wrong with Black people?

Like it or not, there's still healing to be done and I think the best way to do that is talk it out. I am happy that we can talk about it here. I think it will get us closer to understanding and appreciating our backgrounds and differences. And that's okay. People who claim to be "racially color-blind" are either liars or are not realizing that diversity is what makes communities great.

jeffrey

^ Right on the money, IMO. All of it.

ishtar

nearnostrand wrote: For real??

Yup and I'm not reading that dissertation you typed.

mha

I read it. It's worth the read. Agreed nearnostrand.

jeffrey

Adding to nearnostrand's discussion above, folks should take a minute to have a look at a recent Nostrand Park post that really cuts to the heart of all this:

Reflections On A Murder In Crown Heights – From Two Crown Heights Bloggers
http://nostrandpark.com/2010/05/30/reflections-on-a-murder-in-crown-heights-from-two-crown-heights-bloggers/

I happen to keep up occasionally with both Combat Jack's Daily Math (dude loves himself some Gorilla Coffee by the way, if you follow his tweets, lol) as well as the I Love Franklin Ave blog and saw both posts, but I have to give credit to Nostrand Park for utterly nailing it by synthesizing the two for an honest look at things from a Tale of Two Cities perspective.

And it starts out by addressing the challenges of local sites (heck, even like Brooklynian) in managing discussions on subjects of crime, race etc. to not end up merely as yet another negative media report or discussion about the neighborhood.

If folks haven't checked out the Nostrand Park post above, you all definitely should head over there. Well done.

whynot_31

....but the Cosby Show was a great fantasy.

jeffrey

Well, it was, actually.

Coming out of a context of often lampooning shows like Sanford and Son, there was a certain nobility to some aspects of some characters in Good Times (in spite of loads of ridiculous behavior in there) and a definite farce sort of approach to the outward success in other shows like the Jeffersons.

This left plenty of room (and a need, frankly) for some classic, good old-fashioned role models for once in shows like the Cosbys.

Other peoples had their Waltons or Little House on the Prairie or whatever that post-war one recently was (in the years right after 9/11 happened) where it was all about the nobility of the classic family and role models.

There needed to be this for other groups out there, especially at a time when such a show had never existed. Something transcendental, focused on good and strong family values and attainable success, but from a different perspective than the usual.

Role models and heroes do alot to shape the psyche and morale of kids coming up. People are amused by the McEnroes and A-Rods of this world, but it's the Jeters that stick out in kids' minds as who they want to be.

MOD

nearnostrand wrote:
As to the actual question posed at the top of the thread - there is a lot that we still don't know about each other, nor understand. We use trigger words, phrases, and examples that we don't even know we inflaming someone or triggering memories in others of certain negative situations. When boprey talked about his situation with the police on the roof, it automatically made me think of various situations that involved the police and the treatment the I and others received - which wasn't as pleasant and made me walk away thinking, what the hell is wrong with White people?When MHA talked about the Vespa incident, it made me think of the time that I went out of my way to drive to a totally different neighborhood to return a lost wallet to someone who looked like me, and instead of being graciously thanked, any appreciation that came my way was as afterthought after suspicion and the questioning had subsided - which made me walk away thinking, what the hell is wrong with Black people?

Like it or not, there's still healing to be done and I think the best way to do that is talk it out. I am happy that we can talk about it here. I think it will get us closer to understanding and appreciating our backgrounds and differences. And that's okay. People who claim to be "racially color-blind" are either liars or are not realizing that diversity is what makes communities great.

Well said. I'll end with....
“Be the change you want to see in the world.” Mahatma Gandhi

mha

I read Combat Jack's posting about the murder on Franklin Ave. It's gripping.

jeffrey

Totally.

outside child

MHA wrote: Okay -- I gotta take issue here. Outside Child, I really think you need to show me the 'coded racist stuff' here.

boprey wrote: Music is on, but low. It's the Beach Boys. Bass-thumping rap music below is coming from a BBQ on street level next door.

boprey wrote: [ Last I checked, Crown Heights was not the neighborhood of Cliff Huxtable. Catch my drift?

jeffrey

Yes, I believe the above resulted in a silent yet deafeningly audible "OH NO HE DIDN'T" from the crowd.

See, that worked OC. No insults needed. Point made quite well.

mha

Still, I don't agree with you Outside Child. I really take the rooftop dude's point here. I don't think he wrote what he wrote with a sense of privilege, but is pointing out the fact that he felt like 'low hanging fruit', and he got pl(f)ucked by the cops because of it. I bet you if I was on the rooftop playing my Miles Davis the result would have been the same. Crown Heights isn't the neighborhood of Cliff Huxtable. I do catch is drift, but I don't see a racist's nuance here. Not that it may not exist, but, I don't see it, I really don't. Someone said in another thread that we live amidst two groups of thugs here, some of them have badges and guns, and others have -- well they DON'T have badges. I gotta say, many of my experiences with the police are EXACTLY like experiences with some of my 'neighbors'. I am convinced that the best thing to do is to give both a wide berth. And what's poignant is this: NEITHER group cares about the neighborhood. Both are using it for their personal gains. I TRULY believe that now.

thebrooklynnative

Cool The Kid wrote: [quote=TheBrooklynNative]

Like I previously said before there is nothing wrong about asking about the saftey of a neighborhood. That is absolutely normal,BUT WHEN YOU START YOUR QUESTION OF WITH I AM A WHITE FEMALE,OR WHITE MALE (SO ON AND SO ON) that is extremely offensive!THAT IS LIKE SAYING I AM WHITE ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS AREA A THREAT TO ME.THAT IS UNCALLED FOR,IF YOU NEED PROOF OF SUCH POST I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU!

OK, first of all you need to relax.

Second of all, I think there IS a double standard in what is expected of people in CH based on the color of their skin, and while it is wrong to a degree for someone to presume this without knowing anything about the neighborhood, to a degree these worries are justified. When I lived there I didn't say hello to EVERY person on my block, and there were a lot of black people who just went about their business and didn't really interact with anyone from what I saw... as black people in the neighborhood it seems they have that right. But unless I'm mistaken, the general sentiment amongst the black people in CH is that it is roud for white people to do the same, and that they should go out of their way to be friendly and get to know their neighbors (especially if they decide to get nosy when there is a shooting or w/e).

Plus I know many white people who live in areas like CH, Bushwick etc who have faced harassment and sometimes physical harm just because of the color of their skin. I'm sure such stories gain momentum and come up when people look to make the decision to move into areas like CH, which prompts people to ask if such occurrences are regular here. Having personally seen some of this with my own eyes I know it's not some once in a blue moon kind of thing.

I don't think these people think ALL the black people in the neighborhood are a threat to them. They probably wouldn't consider moving there if they thought that were even a possibility. But when u have a neighborhood in which a storefront is blasting messages from a dude calling white people "devils", and people muttering under their breath "white cracker bitch" at white women on the street, or a marked difference in service at certain stores based on the color of one's skin, when word of such instances get out to people looking to move to the area certain questions are gonna be asked of people in the know. I don't think anyone looking to move to CH is dumb enough to think ALL black people are dangerous, and if that is what your anger is predicated upon I think you need to step back and look at the plausibility of your assumptions.

First of all I don't see the need for you to tell me to relax,I'm not angry I am just stressing a point. So please don't assume or put your chosen emotion into my words.I wasn't even near anger.If you look at my most recent post you will see that I do acknowledge a lot of double standards that black pple may have for white pple. I am not giving an opinion bc I am black i am giving an opinion on what I think is wrong or right. From what I am gathering from your answer is that certain black pple are persecuting white pple. And some how you seem to ignore that the same things happen in areas like Brooklyn Heights,or even park slope. I am not pushing a fight club-style match between the races,all I am saying is don't grade the safety of a neighborhood by the color of your skin.I think that is a fair statement.Do not presume that bc I am white I am automatically in danger,a bad neighborhood is a bad neighborhood and color has very little to do with it. Your defending these certain pple who ask these questions without even reading their post and seeing what I have seen.

jeffrey

jeffrey wrote: fordmadoxfraud, are you referring to BKLYN Yard, the outdoor concert etc. venue?
http://bklynyard.com/

It's not an apartment building. It's an actual business, an outdoor party/event space that apparently has a license to do just that, just like Havana Outpost etc.

It's not just someone's ongoing outdoor street party or whatever.

Just sayin'.

Aaaaand apparently BKLYN Yard's landlord has just kicked them out:

http://gothamist.com/2010/06/04/bklyn_yard_closes_up_shop.php

BKLYN Yard Closes Up Shop

Just as the sun comes out for the season, word comes in that the BKLYN Yard has been forced to shut down not one week after they kicked off the season with a weekend of opening events.

cool the kid

TheBrooklynNative wrote: all I am saying is don't grade the safety of a neighborhood by the color of your skin.I think that is a fair statement.

*EDIT* If you can find a post that even implies this I will eat my words. I don't think anyone is worried about their safety because CH is primarily black... I think people are worried about their safety in CH because it is dangerous

And there have been instances of black on white harassment/crime. Not that this is the norm but it does happen, definitely WAY more in CH than in PS or BH.

Edited for tone & brevity

mha

Ah! We can all agree: race MATTERS!!!

Close it up Jeffrey...

jeffrey

Actually, I think we're okay here.

mha

"Jeffrey your needed on the DWARV thread... Paging Jeffrey...."

won't ub my nabor

Just want to agree with others - nearnostrand your comment from Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:59 pm EST was on point (sorry, it was long so I didn't want to requote it)! Well said!

stella

Won't UB My Nabor wrote: Just want to agree with others - nearnostrand your comment from Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:59 pm EST was on point (sorry, it was long so I didn't want to requote it)! Well said!

I agree!