Whats up with bike riders on Vanderbilt ave???

king without a crown

I drove down Vanderbilt ave from Grand Army Plaza towards Atlantic and saw atleast 10 bike riders along the avenue. All of which were disobeying traffic signals, riding against traffic, swirving in and out of traffic and not using designated bike lanes. I'm not anti-bike riders, but you very rarely see any of them obey the rules of the road. When was the last time you actually saw a bike rider waiting at a red light?

whyfi

I've waited at red lights... But not usually at red lights that have no opposing traffic. Forgive me for my Idaho stop. Oh, and I regularly ride out of the bike lane, 'specially when automobiles or pedestrians are occupying the lane or it's otherwise unsafe (alarmingly frequent); this is, of course, perfectly within the "rules of the road."

But yeah, there are a lot of idiots out there, too.

king without a crown

I understand avoiding cars stopped in the bike lanes,but a majority of bikers disregard the rules of the road. They can even be issued moving violations that are adjudacated in traffic court. I'm not talking about the bells and reflectiorsmissing from bikes, but blasting through intersections disobeying steady red signals is pretty dangerous.

bkchickie

I was just thinking about this tonight. Bike NYC really needs to start a "Rules of the Road" campaign.

When I bike I follow the traffic signals, ride the correct direction in the bike lanes (don't get me started on the wrong-way riders), and wear a helmet. It's amazing to me the people who don't do this--especially the helmet bit.

whyfi

I think that one of the problems is that there are a lot-lot-lot of newer riders. All of the additional lanes are great for encouraging people to get on a bike for their first time in a decade, but it's going to take a little time for these riders, as individuals and as a whole, to mature.

I think that other cyclists are going to have the greatest effect - use peer pressure. Give the salmons the stink-eye, force them to the outside (I'M going to the right way, I'm not going out in to traffic, if I don't have to) or yell, "the lane you're looking for is one street over!" If someone is erratic, let them know that you're near and do it in a tone of voice that let's them know that you're not happy or amused. At night, if they don't have lights, tell them that you think that their batteries are dead. Set an example by waiting for pedestrians crossing with the light (If they're crossing against, fuck it - buzz'em).

Oh, and please, for the fucking love of god, STOP filtering past me when I'm waiting at a light. I am probably in front of you because I passed you when we were both in motion. You hopping in front of me at the light means that I have to venture in to the car lane to pass you again. Stop it - wait patiently behind the other cyclists already at the light.

Eh, that's all for now, but you get the idea.

nyluke

I see pedestrians crossing when they don't have the light all the time. As long as they do it safely when there's no opposing traffic I really don't see a problem - does anyone else? I'd say the same applies to the cyclists who are trying to survive on the auto-dominated streets. The intersection is often the most dangerous place for a cyclist. If I can get ahead of the cars so that they will see me clearly when they pass me on the next block I am safer. If I wait at the light the chances are pretty good that they will slam the gas and make a hard left without looking while I'm going through the intersection.

I guess my point is that it's rough out there for cyclists, so please give us a break. I'm sorry for the assholes who unsafely flaunt the laws of the road, but in my experience they are a clear minority.

debya

Subject: Re: Whats up with bike riders on Vanderbilt ave???

King without a crown wrote: I drove down Vanderbilt ave from Grand Army Plaza towards Atlantic and saw atleast 10 bike riders along the avenue. All of which were disobeying traffic signals, riding against traffic, swirving in and out of traffic and not using designated bike lanes.

Well, cyclists can take the car lane and don't have to remain in the bike lane: http://www.bicycledefensefund.org/bikelaw.html

I ride Vanderbilt every day and I haven't encountered cyclists riding the wrong way...yet. (I'm super sensitive to this as a friend was just recently knocked unconscious as she was crossing the street on foot by some dumb kid riding the wrong way. Six staples in her head!)

Alas, I have noticed the uptick in dumb bike riders. Lately, I've encountered a few folks smoking in front of me in a bike lane. And, of course, it's when I can't safely pass them. I, too, believe it's the summer time effect and the onslaught of new riders because, you know, it's the thing.

trainsmoke deleon

The intersection is often the most dangerous place for a cyclist. If I can get ahead of the cars so that they will see me clearly when they pass me on the next block I am safer.

This is true. I always try to break a light when it's safe in order to get ahead of the traffic so I am seen. It's fairly common safe biking practice. Zooming through without slowing or stopping is just dumb. Biking in the car lane is perfectly legal though rude if the bike lane is clear and there. Fact is that too many drivers are not used to the amount of biking that goes on and don't bother to check for bikers when turning or pulling over etc. so bikers have to do what they can to make themselves seen. If I feel a car is not aware of me or if the driver isn't being careful then I will get in the lane in front of them to drive home the point.

Personally I'd like to get rid of the car lane on Vanderbilt.

youbetcha

The worst place in Brooklyn to have to deal with Bike riders is in Prospect Park. Between the racers who practice every day and the loonies who like going down the hill towards the lake without holding on to their handlebars to the nitwits who cut into the pedestrian lane because they're going the wrong direction, a body takes his life in his hands there. I don't know where to walk on the roadway anymore. Some rules please and lots of enforcement. . .

whyfi

youbetcha wrote: The worst place in Brooklyn to have to deal with Bike riders is in Prospect Park. Between the racers who practice every day and the loonies who like going down the hill towards the lake without holding on to their handlebars to the nitwits who cut into the pedestrian lane because they're going the wrong direction, a body takes his life in his hands there. I don't know where to walk on the roadway anymore. Some rules please and lots of enforcement. . .

It cuts both ways, in Prospect Park - there are lots of nitwit walkers/runners/meanderers in PP.

nyluke

The nice thing about the cyclists, even the "racers, loonies, and nitwits", is that regardless of how irresponsible they are, they are not riding around our streets on two ton killing machines. Their increase in numbers will ultimately decrease auto traffic which will lead to safer, quieter streets, less pollution, etc etc.. I'm all for law-abiding, but let's please think before we call for a crackdown on cyclists that will discourage biking and instead support a proper bike infrastructure for our city.

king without a crown

Bikeres seem to get a free pass from the NYPD when it comes to traffic infraction enforcement, but with that, comes some responsibility. The only complaint that I've ever heard regarding bike enforcement, is for those that choose to ride their bikes on the sidewalk. There is no war between bikers and Police other than the one thats been created. If there really was, it would be open season on all bikers that disregard the VTL. As a biker I know it sucks to ride in the City and people who drive for the most part, hate people who bike,but I think some of the hostility towards bikers is due to their blatent disregard of the Law.

whyfi

King without a crown wrote: ...but I think some of the hostility towards bikers is due to some blatently disregarding common sense.

FTFY - people care more about common sense than they do about the letter of the law.

architecture biscuit

nyluke wrote: The nice thing about the cyclists, even the "racers, loonies, and nitwits", is that regardless of how irresponsible they are, they are not riding around our streets on two ton killing machines. Their increase in numbers will ultimately decrease auto traffic which will lead to safer, quieter streets, less pollution, etc etc.. I'm all for law-abiding, but let's please think before we call for a crackdown on cyclists that will discourage biking and instead support a proper bike infrastructure for our city.

Unless the biking population becomes better at riding and following basic laws I don't see how we could drastically increase ridership without creating chaos. Imagine replacing all the cars on our streets with bikes but still having a huge portion of cyclists riding the wrong way on one way streets, going through red lights, and operating their road vehicles on pedestrian sidewalks. I think it would be pretty ugly out there for both bikers and pedestrians in this scenario.

I support biking and would like to see a large increase in ridership, and for this reason support not only proper biking infrastructure, but stronger enforcement of our biking laws.

union street

I'm hesitant to respond to King Without a Crown's specious (and misspelled) assertions but, well, this crap comes up so often, it's worth debunking every so often. So here goes:

King without a crown wrote: I'm not anti-bike riders...

Actually, it is quite clear that you are very much "anti-bikers" but I'm glad that we've reached a place in New York City where members of the windshield-perspective class need to disclaim some level respect for people who transport themselves by bike before making their anti-bike statements. That's a step up.

King without a crown wrote: ...but you very rarely see any of them obey the rules of the road.

You know what I very rarely see? I very rarely see Brooklyn drivers obeying the speed limit, I very rarely see them not honking their horns needlessly, I very rarely see them not turning aggressively into crosswalks while moms and babies are crossing the street, I very rarely see a week go by when 3 to 5 innocent New Yorkers aren't killed by reckless drivers of oversize, over-powered vehicles, while 50 more are injured. As for pedestrians in New York City... I also very rarely see them obeying the rules of the road. In fact, they disobey the rules of the road so often, we invented a word for it: "Jaywalking."

And why should cyclists obey "rules of the road" that were, for a good 75 years straight, until 2005 or so, written entirely for the convenience of people operating 5,000 lb vehicles? Cyclists need to function safely and considerately and always put pedestrians' right-of-way ahead of their own. But if you get out there you'll find that it very often simply doesn't make sense for a person on a bike to follow rules and regulations made for cars. We wouldn't even need many of those rules and regulations if we didn't have so many people driving around in gigantic living rooms on wheels.

And I'll add this: Cyclists have very little margin for error on Brooklyn streets. You screw up on a bike, it's very easy to end up maimed or dead. Compared to drivers and peds, cyclists are far and away and without question the most careful, considerate and aware users of NYC streets. They have to be. On a bike on a New York City street, the price of carelessness is far too high.

King without a crown wrote: Bikeres seem to get a free pass from the NYPD when it comes to traffic infraction enforcement

Sorry but this is completely counter-factual. Cyclists were among the NYPD's most heavily ticketed groups last year according to a story in the Daily News just a couple of days ago: http://bit.ly/cemgy3. Pretty much any regular, everyday cyclist can tell you a story about being pulled over by a cop at one time or another for no apparent reason other than that it's easy to grab cyclists and summons them and meet a quota. It happens every day.

Meanwhile, how often do you see the NYPD enforcing against all of the illegal and truly dangerous activity done in motor vehicles? When's the last time you saw someone get a ticket for screaming down Park Place at 50 mph? Even when drivers flat out kill pedestrians the NYPD typically writes it up as an "accident," puts the motorist right back in his plush bucket seat, and he drives off with little more than a "failure to yield" summons and sometimes less than that.

The notion that cyclists are the biggest problem on NYC streets worthy of increased enforcement is a total joke. Cars are doing the killing and maiming and truly dangerous law-breaking. And they are clogging our streets, cooking the planet, and making us more dependent on dirty fossil fuel energy in the process. You don't have to be a particularly good speller to see that we'd be a lot better off with more bikes and less cars on city streets.

King without a crown wrote: As a biker I know it sucks to ride in the City and people who drive for the most part, hate people who bike

It is not even remotely believable that you are a regular biker. If you were, then you'd know that it mostly does not suck to ride a bike in NYC. Quite the opposite. More often than not -- and increasingly so -- biking is the fastest, cheapest, most pleasant and convenient way to get around large swaths of New York City. Likewise, NYC motorists are getting much better about sharing the street with cyclists and rates of cyclist injuries and fatalities are plummeting.

Be honest.

union street

Architecture Biscuit wrote: I don't see how we could drastically increase ridership without creating chaos. Imagine replacing all the cars on our streets with bikes but still having a huge portion of cyclists riding the wrong way on one way streets.

Hello. If you replaced all the cars on our streets with bikes, there wouldn't be a "wrong way" anymore.

Our neighborhood streets, for the most part, all used to be two-way streets, especially the extra-wide streets in Prospect Hts. Starting in the 1950s and continuing until very recently, NYC began converting streets to one-way operation to make them more convenient for motor vehicles and safer for pedestrians in a car-dominated environment.

When you go to a bike-dominant city like Copenhagen or Amsterdam, you don't see as many one-way neighborhood streets. Bicycles, you might have noticed, are pretty skinny. They don't take up a lot of space. You don't need so many one-way streets in a bike-oriented city.

We are blind to this because our city has been thoroughly retrofitted to the motor vehicle.

architecture biscuit

Union Street wrote:
Our neighborhood streets, for the most part, all used to be two-way streets, especially the extra-wide streets in Prospect Hts. Starting in the 1950s and continuing until very recently, NYC began converting streets to one-way operation to make them more convenient for motor vehicles and safer for pedestrians in a car-dominated environment.

This is a fair point, but doesn't really address the underlying purpose of my thought experiment. More of a flaw in the thought experiment than anything else though.

My point is that in order to vastly increase bicycle ridership we need to change the infrastructure to make it easier and safer to bike AND many of the current bikers need to change their behavior to make it safer and less chaotic for the huge number of new bicyclists we'd like to see. It will work best if these things happen together, and these things will need to start happening before we can reclaim the current one-way streets back to two-way streets.

I imagine that, without a big push for better biking, bicyclists will slowly evolve better habits as infrastructure improves and new cyclists slowly trickle into the biking pool. But that will take much longer, and I would prefer a speedier solution if one is available.

lexie z

I have been hit by 2 cars in the last 2 1/2 years. Both in bike lanes. One was totally my fault I was riding up Smith Street against traffic and a yellow cab hit me. I felt like an idiot and learned my lesson about riding down one ways (although I still do it if I am only going a block but I am going to do my best not to after reading this thread). The second was in the bike lane on Bergen by the police station on flatbush.... The driver was given a ticket and I was almost arrested because of my reaction. My bike was mangled but I was ok (i went under his van) Thank god it was a van and not a car or it would of ended much differently. I feel like bike lanes that are not separated by a barricade are just as dangerous as riding in the middle of Flatbush... We all need to do a little better weather we are riding, driving or walking..... And I wore a helmet today, thanks for the reminder

cool the kid

Union Street you make some great points about the realities of the impact of bikers on NYC but it would help you to lay off the Times Up! rhetoric. It's not at all reasonable in Brooklyn for people to do away with cars and trucks completely, and the proportion of people who bike to those who don't is too low to warrant completely uprooting the infrastructure of the city.

That said, as done before, KWAC, you seem to be angry about people breaking laws without really looking at the value of said law. It's all black and white- as long as a law is a law it has to be abided, no matter how ridiculous. I bike and I owned a car during my time in Brooklyn, and I can say with confidence that Brooklyn drivers are a much bigger threat to the general public than bikers. How many people have been killed after getting hit by a bike?

As far as running through lights, on most road bikes a rider has visibility over parked cars to see other cars coming up the block, as well as the ability to hear cars and watch for what pedestrians, who have immediate view of the cars coming are doing. It's in no way at all like running successive red lights in a car- the speeds are lower and the visibility is higher.

I do think there are a lot of things that can be done to minimize dangerous interactions between bikers and the public... ticketing the shit out of bikers, basically out of spite, is not one of them.

king without a crown

I'm not angry about people breaking Laws, I just find it interesting that many bikers feel its OK to disregard the Laws just because they may not agree with them. Also my thread wasn't a dangers of bike VS. cars thread, the point I was making was in reference to the blatent disregard that many bikers have when it comes to the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

whynot_31

...perhaps it is because they know they won't get a ticket.

It's not like they lose points and have to pay a fine like they do with their drivers lic.

....this is a city where people jaywalk and people litter.

Many cities don't have our (ahem) culture.

king without a crown

Actually bikers can be issued moving violations IE: Disobey Steady Red Signal which are returnable to Traffic Court.

whynot_31

The key word is "can".

....they seem to perceive it as very unlikely.

like jaywalkers and people who litter.

It is what it is.

citymouse

King without a crown wrote: I understand avoiding cars stopped in the bike lanes,but a majority of bikers disregard the rules of the road. They can even be issued moving violations that are adjudacated in traffic court. I'm not talking about the bells and reflectiorsmissing from bikes, but blasting through intersections disobeying steady red signals is pretty dangerous.

I ride out of the bike lanes frequently because so many bike lanes are the most pot-hole ridden portion of a road & way too bumpy for bike tires. [In my case - not because I can't take a bump :twisted: but because I don't want to have to repair my bike.] Also in MOST bike lanes there are a couple cars per block stopped or parked - so yes we swerve.

Union Street wrote:
I'm glad that we've reached a place in New York City where members of the windshield-perspective class need to disclaim some level respect for people who transport themselves by bike before making their anti-bike statements. That's a step up.

...

Cars are doing the killing and maiming and truly dangerous law-breaking. And they are clogging our streets, cooking the planet, and making us more dependent on dirty fossil fuel energy in the process. You don't have to be a particularly good speller to see that we'd be a lot better off with more bikes and less cars on city streets.
...

Hello. If you replaced all the cars on our streets with bikes, there wouldn't be a "wrong way" anymore.

So... I both bike and own a car (and use subway/bus/walk/whatever makes the most sense for any given trip). It is my anecdotal observation that I'm more affected/scared by bad car-drivers than by bad-bike riders, whether I am driving my car or riding my bike. People like to randomly stop in the middle of the road and talk to their friends, half of Brooklyn has not discovered that there is such a thing as a turning signal, and they LOVE to tailgate and honk at you no matter how fast you happen to be going.

But I do also encounter plenty of obnoxious, wrong-way, slow-weaving, erratic cyclists. Bike riders, perhaps. Not the yuppie, Transportation-Alternatives Critical Mass Times Up jocking "cyclists." Just normal people who bike here and there.

As for the "windshield-perspective class" ... um, WHAT?

ABLISM ALERT. SO typical of the smug NYC bike scene.

The anti-car, pro-cyclist people tend to forget one problem with the whole "one less car" or "let's take up 5 blocks of Vanderbilt every weekend for a block party and TAKE BACK THE STREETS FOR THE PEOPLE!!!"

..And that is disabled/wheelchair users. People recovering from surgery. Old folk. Ill folk. People who have to transport large, heavy, or many items. Those who generally have difficulty with mobility for various reasons. Automobiles allow a lot of people in NYC and elsewhere to maintain independence and mobility. They allow ambulances to get around rapidly. The car makes it possible for my wheelchair-using best friend to get from A to B because frankly our bus and subway system ain't cutting it. Car (be it a privately owned vehicle, or the availability of taxis, access-a-ride, etc.) enables hanging out all over the entire world-class City instead of being confined to order takeout in his elevator building everyday. All this "Hello. If you replaced all the cars on our streets with bikes, there wouldn't be a "wrong way" anymore. " Um... if you replaced all the cars on our streets with bikes, it would just announce to the world "F**k you cripple, stay at home."

izisharp

Drivers are just jealous at how quickly cyclists get around. Plain and simple. It's just an extension of road rage.

caseopele

Since I started riding a bike in May for the first time in years I've noticed that pretty much everyone sucks. Pedestrians, other bikers, and cars. But drivers are at the head of the suckiness pack. I've come to the conclusion that almost every driver believes that a yellow light is a sign to speed up. And that some drivers take personal offense at anyone riding a bike.

I'm more cautious than most, I stop at red lights and only go through them if I'm absolutely sure no cars are coming. I slow down at yellow lights and am never reckless because I know it's stupid and dangerous. I've had drivers speed up to pass me while I'm in the bike lane so they can double park in front of me forcing me to swerve into traffic. I was riding on Vanderbilt one day and came across 3 cars parked in the bike lane over 3 blocks. The best part was the 2nd one was a freaking traffic cop who didn't give a shit that she was blocking the bike lane.

I also hate that drivers assume I'm some douchebag trying to make a point because I ride a bike. I got my 20 year old Huffy for free from a friend who moved and couldn't take it with her. I ride it because I'm broke and the MTA sucks. So it pisses me off that some jerk in a car gives me shit when I'm sweating my ass off in the heat just trying to get to work.

whyfi

izisharp wrote: Drivers are just jealous at how quickly cyclists get around. Plain and simple. It's just an extension of road rage.

caseopele wrote: Since I started riding a bike in May for the first time in years I've noticed that pretty much everyone sucks. Pedestrians, other bikers, and cars. But drivers are at the head of the suckiness pack.

QFT x 2

KWAC - I love how you're completely blind to the [Urkel]Vehicular Traffic Law[/Urkel] violations committed by automobiles, yet every cyclist infraction is etched in your mind. Tell you what, next Vandy Pub Crawl, we'll both stand on the same corner on Vandy, counting infractions - you can keep track of the cyclists, I'll keep track of the cars. Fewest infractions buys the other a round. If you REALLY want to make it interesting, we'll multiply infractions by average moving weight to get a good idea of the destructive forces at play.

king without a crown

WhyFi wrote: [quote=izisharp]Drivers are just jealous at how quickly cyclists get around. Plain and simple. It's just an extension of road rage.

caseopele wrote: Since I started riding a bike in May for the first time in years I've noticed that pretty much everyone sucks. Pedestrians, other bikers, and cars. But drivers are at the head of the suckiness pack.

QFT x 2

KWAC - I love how you're completely blind to the [Urkel]Vehicular Traffic Law[/Urkel] violations committed by automobiles, yet every cyclist infraction is etched in your mind. Tell you what, next Vandy Pub Crawl, we'll both stand on the same corner on Vandy, counting infractions - you can keep track of the cyclists, I'll keep track of the cars. Fewest infractions buys the other a round. If you REALLY want to make it interesting, we'll multiply infractions by average moving weight to get a good idea of the destructive forces at play.

I'm not sure why its so difficult for some people to stay on topic. The purpose for this thread is to bring attention to something that I've observed several times throughout the City. I repeat, this is not a BIKE VS. CAR debate. Pretty much through reading through these posts, it appears that bikers do in fact disregard/break the traffic rules and somehow feel justified in doing so and when confronted about it seem to deflect towards cars. Cars do this and cars do that and cars make pollution and cars smell and cars weigh a lot and cars suck and car drivers are assholes and Bikers Rule!

whyfi

King without a crown wrote: I'm not sure why its so difficult for some people to stay on topic.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to see that we're pointing out that it's a topic without merit.

union street

citymouse wrote: Automobiles allow a lot of people in NYC and elsewhere to maintain independence and mobility. They allow ambulances to get around rapidly. The car makes it possible for my wheelchair-using best friend to get from A to B

Wow. Do you really believe this nonsense?

Automobiles are IN THE WAY of people's independence and mobility in New York City. First off, the vast majority of New Yorkers do not own cars. Second, New York City ambulances aren't stuck in traffic behind rows of street-clogging bicycles. Our streets are gridlocked and immobilized by motor vehicles, many of which are humongous, driven by a single passenger and making a trip that could very easily be taken on transit, or by bike or by foot if we did a better job of accommodating those modes.

There are lots and lots of ways to accommodate disabled people but encouraging private automobile use in the urban core is absolutely not one of them. Go to Copenhagen and Amsterdam, the world's two least car-dependent cities and, not coincidentally, you'll find that these are two of the most disabled-friendly cities as well.

paraderest

I guess I know what I'm doing tonight. Watch out, bikers...