SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

capt. planet

So let's say you bought a new Ford, the most expensive car you've ever owned. Being a bit of a doodie head, you never read the owners manual and develop the opinion that the car can fly.

When the inevitable happens, you curse the wrecked car for being a defective piece of junk. The maker of the car judges you to be a moran.

Do you think Ford's replacing your car for you!

mha

No, of course they won't, but here's the thing. If I bought a new Ford and despite not reading the owner's manual I thought the car could fly I would be flouting all of the rules of PHYSICS. RATIONAL THOUGHT dictates what cars do. INDEED, rational thought built the car in the first place; an abeyance to the cause and EFFECT, NOT my opinion. My opinion on anything is a SUBJECTIVE, NORMATIVE perspective. My opinion about Christianity is just that, subjective and normative. However, indifferent to my opinion are the tenets of the laws which govern REALITY. And in that world, there is no historical record of Jesus walking the earth except in the texts which can aptly be classified as MYTHOLOGY. But for the cultural intolerance of Christianity, you might be evangelizing about the tenets of Zeus, or Zhango right now... But that's another story...

Implicit in your own scenario is that not believing in reading the manual makes one a 'doodie head'. But here's the thing: WHO reads a manual to drive a car??

In fact, so many people are apt to NOT read manuals, but to -- and correctly so -- figure out how things work on their own, using their rational faculties...

Your god is a myth.

mha

You know what dude, good for you. This is tiresome, no? Let's agree to disagree. Thank the Constitution that we live in a country where we can do that without fear of government reprisal.

Happy New Year to you and your family.

hiscrownheights

And in that world, there is no historical record of Jesus walking the earth except in the texts which can aptly be classified as MYTHOLOGY.

incorrect The Bible isnt the only book that has record of Jesus walking the earth. Or other books classified as "mythology". For you to say that keeps proving you need to do some more homework. :farao:

Happy New Years to you and your family too. *hugs*

capt. planet

My little parable was of course loosely written.

Perhaps taking driving lessons might be a better analogy than reading the owners manual. Think of the Bible as the written material and your life as practice driving.

Now we have the road test.

Did he learn anything?

Or did he ignore every opportunity and continue to drive like a doodie head?

Boy this is getting silly.

Still....,

mha

(Sigh), You mean the book created in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicene? Yeah, okay...

Happy New Year people.

pittiecity

You know what I find arrogant? The fact that believers always fall back on the same point--- that the universe was created by something and that ultimate something is god. Then people write a book providing the whole mythology behind such... That is arrogant.

If you asked an atheist how the universe was created, they'd probably shrug and say 'I don't care' because not only can we not understand these things, but why would we want to know? Wouldn't that make our lives seem even less miraculous/mysterious?

And the woman who wrote that article is an atheist, but she's the type of atheist who is sensitive to the beliefs of others. She seems to find militants atheists to be arrogant and insulting, but she uses the kind of rationalization that drives me crazy:

For example, when she talks about the woman from Rwanda whose faith in jesus christ was in her mind responsible for her survival. She asks what an aggressive atheist would say to this woman and that is exactly the type of pundit oped bullshit I'd expect from the Daily News. It seems to suggest that they would have the audacity to belittle her atrocious experience by telling her that jesus is a myth or something. Really? It's absurd.

They would probably think to themselves that in her case, it was example of the tremendous power of the will to live. They'd also probably think her case a tragedy that stems from the divisions people impose on themselves that lead to genocide and war. Divisions like... religion; where people's beliefs compromise the beliefs of others.

The reason many atheists come off as aggressive or even militant is because they are frustrated with the religious world. They want people to stop wasting their time with what they view as fairytales and grow up. And they want to not just say it but scream it. I suspect this is because of a history of repression, as it is only now that atheists are really comfortable with speaking up.

whynot_31

Capt-

You continue to assert to myself (and presumably MHA and other atheists) that we are damned in the next life.

For a brief moment, can you imagine being an atheist and being told this?

I do not believe in an afterlife.

I am unable to fear the judgement of a god that I do not believe exists.

As we have discussed, the bible is one of many sources that one can use to guide their life. Even if one uses the bible as their main source of stimulating their moral neurons, they must read it and use their intellect to determine how the stories can be applied to modern life.

In short, life has no owners manual. It is hard work.

....yet, I look forward to the challenges of 2011. I'll face them using a variety of resources:

friends

loved ones

family

great philosophers, leaders, thinkers and teachers (living and dead)

and my inherent sense of right and wrong.

If you want to face 2011 with my above list "plus God", it won't bother me.

But, I must say that I continue to not understand why it bothers you that "God" isn't on my list.

For brief moment, I will suppose there is a god. As I look around, I have yet to be judged by s/he or it. ...but I sure see a lot of people judging myself and others in god's name.

mha

"The reason many atheists come off as aggressive or even militant is because they are frustrated with the religious world. They want people to stop wasting their time with what they view as fairy tales and grow up. And they want to not just say it but scream it. I suspect this is because of a history of repression, as it is only now that atheists are really comfortable with speaking up."

PittieCity layin' it down!!!

=DB

hiscrownheights

(Sigh), You mean the book created in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicene? Yeah, okay...

#EPICFAIL *sigh* same ol' same ol. so off.

"The reason many atheists come off as aggressive or even militant is because they are frustrated with the religious world. They want people to stop wasting their time with what they view as fairy tales and grow up. And they want to not just say it but scream it. I suspect this is because of a history of repression, as it is only now that atheists are really comfortable with speaking up."

works both ways, as why_not and the article mentions. its ok pittiecity. I laughed and I laughed and I laid it down. Jesus was a huge myth in my mind as well. What is odd is I have yet to see any arguments other than the ones I myself made or others make. Not that they aren't valid questions, but they've been answered time and time again. That's why a website aint gon cut it.

Pittie,

Where's the oppression? The repression? In a city like NYC, I find that somewhat laughable.

For brief moment, I will suppose there is a god. As I look around, I have yet to be judged by s/he or it. ...but I sure see a lot of people judging myself and others in god's name.

*nods* and thass not cool. *sigh* relax relate release peoples. Breathe in Breathe out....

whynot_31

whynot wrote: For brief moment, I will suppose there is a god. As I look around, I have yet to be judged by s/he or it. ...but I sure see a lot of people judging myself and others in god's name.

HCH wrote: *nods* and thass not cool. *sigh* relax relate release peoples. Breathe in Breathe out....

But this really gets to the crux of what we are talking about.

Yes, "repression" and "oppression" may be too strong of words.

Yes, calling the religion of christianity inherently repressive and oppressive certainly puts the members on the defensive.

I think MHA and pittiecity accurately point out that, until recently, many people have had to "fake a belief in god" and go to church in order to be included in society.

....to do otherwise negatively affected:

ones dating and marriage opportunities.

who would hire you

where you could live

etc.

...basically, it subjected one to many of the forms of discrimination that minorities and gay folks received in this country since its founding.

Atheists (such as myself) are arguing that "society's demand that they just be quiet and fake it" is as harmful to them as it is to demand that a gay person stay closeted and marry someone they do not love.

Basically, whether one has faith in god is a central part of their identity, and it is incredibly harmful to have a society that demands one must deny who they are in order to be accepted.

This country is a majority Christian country, and -yes- it is tempting to blame the christians for a system that is way beyond their individual means to control.

....yes, the "privileges" bestowed upon christians in this country have diminished, and may be smallest in someplace like NYC ....but such privileges do still continue.

I expect myself and other atheists to try to level the playing field at every opportunity.

Ain't no stoppin' us now.

pittiecity

I don't find repression to be too strong a word. As I have mentioned before, can you imagine a politician running for president admitting to being an atheist? I'd be political suicide. Why? Because in the minds of many believers, you can't have morality that's not subject to a higher power... (Sigh)

hiscrownheights

i will fight with yall to change that perception pittie. Because the hypocrisy that does exist in Christendom flows from that belief. Living up to the prevalent social moral standards in this country and in this world are achievable no matter what you believe. no doubt.

Check this video out. Tim Keller is here in the city.

I think MHA and pittiecity accurately point out that, until recently, many people have had to "fake a belief in god" and go to church in order to be included in society.

Are you or MHA or pittie one of those people? i definitely was. Definitely. Made a rap song called "the bible belt" that drew that out.

whynot_31

HCH wrote: Are you or MHA or pittie one of those people? i definitely was.

I am fortunate in that I no longer have to fake a belief in god in order to be included.

I presently have a circle of friends that are either accepting of my (lack of) faith, or do not care about it.

I presently have a work atmosphere wherein my coworkers do not ask about religion or faith (we are a very diverse mix).

I also make it a habit not to discuss religion; I find it is too personal and controversial of a topic for most settings ...certainly work. As someone with some authority where I work, I occasionally tell others to keep their religion to themselves ...I am able to do so without reprisal.

But this has not always been the case:

I was raised catholic.

attended catholic high schools

attended a catholic college

...despite being an atheist since I was around 10 (the time I think people begin to think about such issues), I grinned and bared it.

And I certainly aware that not everyone (whether they are religious or atheist) is fortunate enough to have a "life" like the one I have just summarized. ...this is why I am not a militant.

....and probably why I have never felt the desire to read any of the books/authors that your video mentions.

<<<< leaves computer to attend NYE party.

hiscrownheights

*DJ SCRATCH* HCH was:

I was raised catholic.

attended catholic elementary and middle school

attended a liberal college

...despite being an anti-Jesus and atheistic since I was around 14, I grinned and bared it.

we should definitely talk cuzn. have fun and be safe out there! please! im out myself to a couple.

homeowner

I read this the other day and it reminded me of y'all:

But there were some things I believed in. Some things I had faith in. And faith isn't about perfect attendance to services, or how much money you put into the little plate. It isn't about going skyclad to the Holy Rites, or meditating each day upon the divine.

Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. Its about making sacrifices for the good of others - even when there's not going to be anyone telling you what a hero you are.

Faith is a power of its own, and one even more elusive and difficult to define than magic. A symbol of faith, presented with genuine belief and sincerity, is the bane or many an otherworldly predator..."

Jim Butcher

whynot_31

I liked it until the part about the "otherworldly predator"

....sounds like a bad god.

booklaw

WhyNot, what did you bare while you grinned?

Gotta be careful... people get arrested for baring the wrong body parts...

Happy New Year!

mha

If you do recall, I have expressed much about A Virtue Attached To Recreational Skin. One of those virtues is the ability to be candid about who you are, how you feel, and what you think; that possessing an AVATAR in this virtual world enables more freedoms than one would have in the real world. I am more comfortable being quite candid about my apathy and antipathy of religious faith here than I would in any face to face context.

In face-to-face encounters, I've suffered many social consequences from voicing my criticisms of religion. To wit, whenever it comes up, like it did today in a livery cab, the Haitian brother said, "God is wonderful. He often closes opportunities just to provide you with others." I agreed with him while silently wondering how he could think that -- given Haiti's onward slide into the Caribbean Sea.

For the sake of keeping the peace, I don't speak of my religious indifference in face-to-face discourse -- especially when I'm in the company of the fairer sex and attempting to breach at least two of the ten commandments at the same time.

Being from the Caribbean, Christianity is a huge facet of people's lives. My grandmother is a Jehovah's Witness, as are a plethora of my cousins. They know I am as godless as they come, and they view me with that ironic pity Christians in toto possess. We have a silent agreement that it's something we don't talk about. Only on one occasion I was asked what church I belonged to, and I said with a wry smile, 'I am a proud heathen.' And I am.

mha

But, look, I really want to stop seeming antagonistic here... There is no one truth; there are many truths. My ego's experience with the Uni-verse is not one that I would describe as needing of a medium - i.e. Jesus Christ. To the extent that I've expressed earlier sentiment that Captain Planet and His Crown Heights is 'wrong', then I want to say, I am wrong.

There are many ways of perceiving reality, and interacting with it. choose your chalice, pick your poison, and muse to the music which moves you.

Happy New Year everybody.

:cheers:

hiscrownheights

Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are.

I'd tell Jim he would be incorrect in regards to Christianity though. I'll leave it at that so this thread can finally end lol

In face-to-face encounters, I've suffered many social consequences from voicing my criticisms of religion.

I wish I could meet you and find out more about that. Such a new perspective, what you guys are saying about being repressed. I'll take that into consideration.

I agreed with him while silently wondering how he could think that -- given Haiti's onward slide into the Caribbean Sea.

@MHA: relative to "bearing it and grinning"? Why didn't you ask him that question?!! It's a dope question. But I guess you attribute it to feeling "repressed".

But, look, I really want to stop seeming antagonistic here...

YAY!!!! *throws confetti* (Im messing. not like u the bad guy lol)

whynot_31

HCH wrote: I'll leave it at that so this thread can finally end lol

I find it hard to believe we have resolved a discussion and debate that has been going on since the beginning of humanity.

[Surely there was a few cavemen who couldn't buy the idea that fire = god.]

mha

But fire could be god. It all depends on what is meant by 'god'. Maybe to the caveman fire =ed god because of what fire does: it warms the body, it keeps predators away, it cooks food, it forges metal, etc. Fire was venerated because of what 'good' it provided to early man; so he worshipped it.

Then one day, after arising from his prostrations in front of the fire god, a man filled with something akin to ardor wanted to know how god did what he did. And he began to study the properties of his god. Relatively soon, his ardor and fascination became UNDERSTANDING. At this point man was transformed, because he successfully understood the properties of the fire god; in this sense, man became god himself.

He then extrapolated on his knowledge of fire and thought, 'Then what of the water god, What of the gods in the sky at night?' 'What of the demons in the water?' Man began to approach his world with a different set of epistemological tools. With these tools he was able to see the world differently, for better or worse; the rest, as they say is history.

As an aside, with the fundamental shift in the concept of god -- from warm hearth to the starry sky -- came a fundamental shift in how the believer perceives god as well.

And I have no doubt that with man's growing ability to understand and manipulate his existence, man's concept of god will also change. Where now even the contemporary believer no longer looks upon fire with the same fascination as did early man, I have no doubt that the future believer will hold the same nonchalance for the Uni-verse too -- once our progeny expands it scope, ability and understanding of existence.

Please forgive me, I spent the early morn revelling in the most recent Star Trek movie.

whynot_31

Yes, those who believe in god will always find something that "proves" god's existence. .....however, they rarely convince anyone beside themselves.

Unless, of course, "god" is to be defined as simply the things we do not understand.

homeowner

I liked it until the part about the "otherworldly predator"

....sounds like a bad god.

(whisper)He's actually talking about vampires, and what gives and takes their power(whisper)

hiscrownheights

Hey MHA, why do you write uni-verse instead of universe?

mha

Because I'm trying to make the point about what we are a part of. We exist in a facet of the whole picture. We are a part of 'one thing', but there are other things that adjoin our 'thing' 'uni'- one, 'verse' - part, facet, element...

When a space shuttle orbits the earth,the people within it see a planet; that's the primary thing. Then they break down what they see into smaller parts. Similarly, The Universe is a uni-verse...What Earth is to the Solar System, What a galaxy is to the Universe, I think that the uni-verse is to something else.

mr. met

Because I'm trying to make the point about what we are a part of. We exist in a facet of the whole picture. We are a part of 'one thing', but there are other things that adjoin our 'thing' 'uni'- one, 'verse' - part, facet, element...

When a space shuttle orbits the earth,the people within it see a planet; that's the primary thing. Then they break down what they see into smaller parts. Similarly, The Universe is a uni-verse...What Earth is to the Solar System, What a galaxy is to the Universe, I think that the uni-verse is to something else.

gen-i-us

hiscrownheights

thats pretty cool man.

You mentioned people gaining UNDERSTANDING about 'god'. What do you think about the following statement:

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

mha

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

HCH, I don't know if Man has truly seen the nature of what you define as 'God'. I think that's an ongoing perspective. I think that the nature of all living things is to be shaped by its environment so that the attainment of power becomes easier. So, Man's ultimate destiny, in that regard, is not to be perpetually beholden to the physical parameters which contain him, but to one day transcend them, and in the sense man has gained understanding of the characteristics of fire, earth, and indeed air, and now controls them, man's penultimate objective is to control existence itself, to in a sense kill the god that he has and replace 'Him' -- with himself.

There is a Buddhist saying that if you see the Buddha walking on the road, you must kill him. Similarly, nature reveals that the parent is transcended by the offspring. God must die in order that man must live.