SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

mha

Hmmmm.... I recall many years ago there was a thick sistah I met at the CUNY graduate school. She was working on her Phd in Biology, and she argued that man was a devolving result of woman, that the y chromosome was actually a malformed x chromosome. Man -- and all living things -- come from the feminine, I have no doubt about that.

There's a great book called 'The Nigger Bible' and the author writes a creation story that posits god's master penis plowed the earth, and what life exists is the result of this ultimate act of coitus.

I believe that we are beholden to this wonderful blue orb for our lives, and since we are self aware, we need to take care of her. When the aliens do a fly by, I am sure they identify Earth as an entity, in the same way that we see a banana and identify it. Yet, take a closer look at a banana, or any piece of fruit. Leave it there for awhile, and as it resorts back to formless matter, lo! life springs from it, in the form of fruit flies. Where do these flies come from? I say the banana! Where do we come from? I say we are the earth!

capt. planet

whynot_31 wrote:

I'd join a religion if I thought it would make me a better person.

No, you'd join a religion if you REALLY wanted to be a better person. More likely your like MHA, "Two tears in a bucket", etc. Frankly darling I just don't give a damn.

capt. planet

MHA wrote:

Fear works, but we need not depend up it to strive to be moral; to be good. It's not a cop out. There was goodness before Christianity. And there will be goodness after Christianity.

Ah, but do you have AC in your apartment? Do you fly in airplanes or take long trips in a car, especially an SUV?

All of these acts contribute significantly to global warming, yet most Americans (as opposed to most Africans) do most of this stuff most of the time. Does that mean their immoral? Our just stupid?

Clearly climate change is one of the most significant threats to survival of our species, based on rational, cause and effect analysis, yet most Americans pay the problem little more than lip service.

As for this diatribe against Christians because they oppressed people, etc., those weren't really Christians, just people who wrapped themselves in the Christian name for their own gain.

Christ was a Jewish reformer who hit it lucky, got a community activist named Paul to run his game for him and eventually lost it all when he went mainstream.

Sounds like some ball players I can think of.

ntfool

Capt. Planet wrote:

Christ was a Jewish reformer who hit it lucky, got a community activist named Paul to run his game for him and eventually lost it all when he went mainstream.

Sounds like some ball players I can think of.

Ha! Well, in that we can at least agree whole-heartedly. Well-played.

whynot_31

Capt. Planet wrote:

whynot_31 wrote:

I'd join a religion if I thought it would make me a better person.

No, you'd join a religion if you REALLY wanted to be a better person.

How would I be better if I joined a religion?

While we are it, how am I now?

Unlike some respondents, I have yet to judge you for your faith. ....yet, I am being judged by you for either not having a faith, or for having a faith you do not understand.

somehow you REALLY want to be a better person, and I do not?

Do REALLY good people feel they have found an answer that works for them and thus have the obligation to tell others it will be the ONLY answer that will work for THEM?

.....If the answer is "yes", you are right: I do not want to be really good.

capt. planet

Whynot, I can only speak for myself. When I'm not going to regular meetings with folks committed to morality as something other than an abstraction, I'm less moral.

Perhaps you are monk. Do you live in a cave and eat chicken droppings?

whynot_31

Capt. Planet wrote:

Whynot, I can only speak for myself. When I'm not going to regular meetings with folks committed to morality as something other than an abstraction, I'm less moral.

Perhaps you are monk. Do you live in a cave and eat chicken droppings?

Not a monk.

Don't live in cave.

Don't eat guano.

....but I am a mostly happy, somewhat normal, guy who happens to post here too often. (my other faults are less obvious to the public)

.... who believes that when I die it is simply over: no heaven. no hell. no reincarnation.

Like MHA seems to believe: We will simply return to being "the earth" or dirt.

mha

But CP, honestly, can you tell me what good the churches in this neighborhood have done for the community? Seriously, what have they done? Do they pick up litter? Do they paint murals? Do they employ people? What have they done? Personally, I think that there should be a license to practice theology. You can't just say 'praise the lord' and be a preacher. You should have to get some sort of accredidation, and there ought to be some way of gauging what public good if any every not-for-profit institutition provides. If you can't show proof of public good, then poof, you ought to lose your license. I really think separation of church and state can still be protected if this is done. I'm tired of seeing ramshackle praise the lawd hole in the walls...Do some public good dangit, or close your door.

capt. planet

I have to admit I share MHA's opinion that churches are largely vestigial organs in society, at least when it comes to acting as a moral force.

I would argue that it's our loss that churches have become so wimpy. And that it's our job to take them back. They represent a valuable resource in our community. If they're as locked up at night as the public schools, then we should make it our business to open them up. God knows we need more places to meet in the community.

Beyond that, churches need to be more than just a community meeting resource. The pastors need to engage and challenge us on important moral issues, not weave and dodge and avoid conflict under the pretense of protecting their institutions. All they're doing is prolonging their death throes.

Having said all of this, it was with some guilt that I spoke at a gathering in the Bedford Central Presbyterian church last night about affordable housing development. That church is the home to a variety of social programs including youth outreach and a daycare center. The pastor has always provided space for local groups including a group trying to start a merchant association on Nostrand I was a part of over a dozen years ago. Sadly, in my experience, Bedford Central is the exception.

Compare this to PS 138, a "public" school in our community. Trying to have a community meeting there is akin to breaking into Fort Knox. The unions and the Dept of Ed have that place so bound up you practicially need a executive order from the president to get in the place.

Seems kind of back asswards when a "private" church is more open to the community than a "public" school.

mr. met

But CP, honestly, can you tell me what good the churches in this neighborhood have done for the community? Seriously, what have they done? Do they pick up litter? Do they paint murals? Do they employ people? What have they done? Personally, I think that there should be a license to practice theology. You can't just say 'praise the lord' and be a preacher. You should have to get some sort of accredidation, and there ought to be some way of gauging what public good if any every not-for-profit institutition provides. If you can't show proof of public good, then poof, you ought to lose your license. I really think separation of church and state can still be protected if this is done. I'm tired of seeing ramshackle praise the lawd hole in the walls...Do some public good dangit, or close your door.

Post of the century. Churches need to go away and stay away in the name of progress. Qualified people that want to help the community can find other outlets. Morality can be taught by units of people called families. Or people can learn about morality in things called books and from people known as teachers (with degrees).

capt. planet

mr. met wrote:

But CP, honestly, can you tell me what good the churches in this neighborhood have done for the community? Seriously, what have they done? Do they pick up litter? Do they paint murals? Do they employ people? What have they done? Personally, I think that there should be a license to practice theology. You can't just say 'praise the lord' and be a preacher. You should have to get some sort of accredidation, and there ought to be some way of gauging what public good if any every not-for-profit institutition provides. If you can't show proof of public good, then poof, you ought to lose your license. I really think separation of church and state can still be protected if this is done. I'm tired of seeing ramshackle praise the lawd hole in the walls...Do some public good dangit, or close your door.

Post of the century. Churches need to go away and stay away in the name of progress. Qualified people that want to help the community can find other outlets. Morality can be taught by units of people called families. Or people can learn about morality in things called books and from people known as teachers (with degrees).

Brooklyn is the boro of churches. Huge edifices taking up lots of valuable real estate, many of them quite attractive too. As an ex-wife once said, the next billionaire will be the guy who comes up with a use for a used McDonalds. In Brooklyn, that would go double for a used church.

Trouble with schools as a place for moral education is that old church/state divide problem. Our founding fathers were real clear that church and state shouldn't mix. And for good reason. Unless you like to be force fed a state religion, that is. It doesn't sound that's what you got in mind.

Mr. Met, it just sounds you like to party. Not a new phenomenon. Living without constraints is very appealing. The only negative is that it doesn't make you happy. But hey, knock yourself out.

See ya' in rehab!

hiscrownheights

Do they pick up litter?

*humbly squeaks* We just did and we have video to prove it. go to nostrandpark.com. Hi, Im Rodney.

I'm not overly hyped by MHA. I don't agree with him totally. More that could be done? Sure. That's always. Nothing being done? Untrue.

Here. I'll be honest. Before I was a Christian, and living in Jacksonville, FL, I knew of three churches that lived close to me. Never saw them in the community, always driving to church and driving home (or wherever). I joined one of the close churches and found out they were actually landlocked by an trailer park community who didnt want nothing they had. And it wasnt totally the racism factor, because from looking back, I dont think what they were teaching was in line with scripture. It was all about me me me blessing. MHA, maybe you live around that type of church. It happens. I wont make any excuses for it. I later joined a Baptist church in another part of town. They were ALWAYS doing something in the community, even taking buses downtown to help the homeless and battered women. It was a stagnant church memberwise but the members were on their A game. Now, I live in NYC and going to a church that not only does things in the community as a body but teaches us to go out and do it ourselves as well (every sermon contains others-focused teaching). I live on Lincoln b/t NY and Nostrand. I know individuals as well as churches who are on their grind. This is why I'm like what are yall talking about?

As far as morality goes, we must decide why there is morality at all. Im pretty sure that has been stated. Then you have to determine the source. Think about it, a seed becomes a tree. How does that do that? A caterpillar becomes a butterfly. Really? There's no way I will think that just happens by some random occurrences. But in a culture thats been taught macroevolution from high school, I just dont see where that is a fruitful conversation unless its a face to face, thoughtful conversation and not typing in circles.

Seems kind of back asswards when a "private" church is more open to the community than a "public" school.

First of all, that is the church I was talking to MHA about before that does homeless meal lines. I am good friends with that church and a brother who goes there. They had an event this summer I was a part of. They on they grind. As an aside, right now my church meets in a public school. And the city was/is undergoing trial to make it illegal to do so. So CP, keep that in prayer.

mr. met

Mr. Met, it just sounds you like to party. Not a new phenomenon. Living without constraints is very appealing. The only negative is that it doesn't make you happy. But hey, knock yourself out.

See ya' in rehab!

You read this and see "party"? progress + community + morality + family + trained professionals + books + teachers = party? Yea!

Churches need to go away and stay away in the name of progress. Qualified people that want to help the community can find other outlets. Morality can be taught by units of people called families. Or people can learn about morality in things called books and from people known as teachers (with degrees).

homeowner

What happens to kids without families? What happens to kids who go to crappy schools where they don't learn to read and don't have teachers who care? They pick their morality up on the streets, where the rules are vastly different.

hiscrownheights

ntfool said:

God Against the Gods: A History of War Between Monotheism and Polytheism, a book by Jonathan Hirsch

Im going to get that book and read it as suggested. Then when I'm done, I'll pm you my info so we can discuss it. My wife may already have it.

mr. met

What happens to kids without families? What happens to kids who go to crappy schools where they don't learn to read and don't have teachers who care? They pick their morality up on the streets, where the rules are vastly different.

i don't know, homeowner. but let's PARTY! seriously, what were you thinking when you said i just want to party and that i'll end up in rehab? i want to know what went through your brain other than blind judgment of someone who obviously doesn't believe in god (me).

really though, how about social workers? guidance counselors? community outreach centers? sports coaches? how about teaching parents how to raise kids and educating young people about responsible reproductive decisions so there are less kids without families or absentee parents?

no offense, but you sound out of touch.

mr. met

and for the record, the VAST majority of teachers care.

homeowner

Uh, that was Capt. Planet, not me...

I was asking solely about situations where there is no family support of any kind, ie. foster care or worse. I'm just wondering if your view that some moral person will intervene takes into account that at least on its face, that's not what is currently happening.

I'm not making any judgments about you as a person. After all I don't know you.

ETA: I think the majority of teachers care about the education of the kids they are teaching. I'm not sure that they care about extending their job description to shaping the morality of their students.

mr. met

oops. sorry about that, homeowner. honest mistake on my part. you can party with me any time.

I'm just wondering if your view that some moral person will intervene takes into account that at least on its face, that's not what is currently happening.

i agree that more needs to be done. just don't think we should look to church, or something as intangible (to put it kindly) as God.

mr. met

I'm not sure that they care about extending their job description to shaping the morality of their students.

they can be positive role models, though.

and if there is no family support of any kind, how is the kid supposed to go to church or know to go to church? isn't it just as realistic for the kid to find another source of guidance on his/her own? the number one source of education pertaining to morality is/should be the nuclear family, and the majority of efforts should go to strengthening that unit through various outreach efforts.

hiscrownheights

i agree that more needs to be done. just don't think we should look to church, or something as intangible (to put it kindly) as God.

Around and around and around. My perspective is similar. To me there's a war going on that no man is safe from, and its happening on the inside of our hearts. So I don't think any organization or religious system is the answer. Surely not. My perspective is that the problem is our falleness and hypocrisy. But because "we all make mistakes" (well, actually we sin but that's neither here nor there) no church, no outreach center, no man can stop immorality or destructiveness. We need a savior. I need a savior. Not someone that just gives us some rules to follow but that will provide me with the power to carry them out to the benefit of all. Not everyone will agree with that, that's ok. All I can do is continue to trust in what gives me the power to wake up early on a Saturday, pick up trash, and stoop down in dirt that I detest (no I dont like gardening). You may think that's off. Why do what you dont like? Stay in bed then! I cant do that. Why? I have a bigger picture and I just wanna love people and the community. And it's not me that does that. Cuz ME woulda probably stayed in the bed. Some woulda been all hyped to get in some dirt. They're better than me.

they can be positive role models, though.

what happens when that role model falters? tiger woods? marion jones? mike vick? where do we go? another role model?

whynot_31

Mr. Met,

Capt Planet's central thesis is that in the past, and using "god's name and authority", churches were the ones who intervened.

And the Capt's central question is: Now that the relevance of religion is waning, who or what will step up?

....although he denys it, he comes across to me as believing that the teachers, social workers, at the like would somehow be better at what they do if they were more religous. [perhaps needless to say, I disagree].

I also disagree that we are becoming less moral.

I also find it hard to believe that someone who makes money for a living and pays his/her taxes is somehow less moral than those work in hapless professions such as social work or teaching.

....but let's not keep disagreeing.

Let's look at that central questions:

a. Should we care that religion is waning?

b. Does another type of institution need to be created in order to keep people moral?

I answer:

a. No.

b. Maybe for some, but I've never felt the need/desire/benefit.

hiscrownheights

a. Should we care that religion is waning?

b. Does another type of institution need to be created in order to keep people moral?

I answer:

a. No.

b. Maybe for some, but I've never felt the need.

agree. "the moral majority" can wag their finger, but its 2010 and pornography is the #1 bestseller.

mr. met

uh, what's up with the video over and over?

hiscrownheights

oh sorry its in my signature. i can remove it.

ntfool

Yeah... I finally just broke down and watched it. Didn't do a whole lot for me, but clearly Sideburns is quite happy and content in his faith. Good for him.

Although, I'm not sure what the video is supposed to convey, other than that guy's effusive faith. Is it meant to convince me of something? Not being snarky, just actively curious as to its purpose.

hiscrownheights

ntfool,

I dont know if it was to convince of anything more than the type of person I was and am now. His story is similar to mine only insert raised Roman Catholic and lived in Jacksonville, FL. I never was an Atheist for long either, but I was highly anti-Jesus.

tsarina

As I recall from my ethics class taught by a Jesuit priest (and I quote) "religion does not equal morality". There are a lot of hypocrits sitting in churches, and other places. But I have noticed that religion can make people very self rightious. Not so suddenly I can't spell.

ntfool

HisCrownHeights wrote:

ntfool,

I dont know if it was to convince of anything more than the type of person I was and am now. His story is similar to mine only insert raised Roman Catholic and lived in Jacksonville, FL. I never was an Atheist for long either, but I was highly anti-Jesus.

Sure, that's all good, but what's not clear to me in the attached video, and in your story, is what caused you to turn around? What brought you (back?) to faith in a higher power?

ntfool

Damn it! This new format is killing me! Every time I use the "quote" option, my new message appears in the previous posters gray box.

It makes it look like the previous poster has written something further. Argh!