SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights

capt. planet

whynot_31 wrote:

Mr. Met,

And the Capt's central question is: Now that the relevance of religion is waning, who or what will step up?

....although he denys it, he comes across to me as believing that the teachers, social workers, at the like would somehow be better at what they do if they were more religous. [perhaps needless to say, I disagree].

If you said to your friends, I don't need to work out at the gym because I'm in great shape. Now if you had the physique of a couch potato, your friends would just laugh at you.

How much easier is it though to say you don't need to go to church or exercise your moral muscle in some way on a regular basis and then get away saying you're in great moral shape? Who's to say otherwise?

How much better would we be as people if we didn't procrastinate, cheat on our taxes, or spouses or significant others, were less judgmental, more caring, etc. etc. To say you don't need moral uplift on a regular basis is to say you're not human.

So that explains the big "S" on Whynot's chest!

ntfool

Doesn't one exercise their "moral muscle" on a daily basis in a hundred different ways? Everything from giving up your seat on the subway to holding the door open for someone to the simple act of consciously choosing not to lie, cheat, steal, etc.?

Why does a church need to "help" me accomplish this? Do you have to go to church regularly to be reminded to be a good person? To not steal? To not have an affair? To give up your subway seat to a pregnant or elderly person?

Really?

Faith is one thing that I've already previously expressed both admiration (and fascination) for. But church... as in, the Church Establishment. Not for me. I was raised Catholic, my family was going through a very hard time when I was young and were really not making it financially, and every time we went to church, we were constantly reminded about how much more we should tithe. And not politely. That's just the beggining of personal poor experience with the Church. Granted, it could've easily just been a crappy parish, but accepting that reality is accepting the inherent flaws associated with an organization like the Church.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest corporations on the planet. Its literally a monster global financial machine. It is an organization founded and run by good ol' corruptible man. See my previous post re: oligarchies two pages ago.

So again, your faith in God? Good for you! I may even be a little jealous that you have that comfort zone. But (sometimes slavish) devotion to the Church? Don't get it.

whynot_31

Capt. Planet wrote:

whynot_31 wrote:

Mr. Met,

And the Capt's central question is: Now that the relevance of religion is waning, who or what will step up?

....although he denys it, he comes across to me as believing that the teachers, social workers, at the like would somehow be better at what they do if they were more religous. [perhaps needless to say, I disagree].

If you said to your friends, I don't need to work out at the gym because I'm in great shape. Now if you had the physique of a couch potato, your friends would just laugh at you.

How much easier is it though to say you don't need to go to church or exercise your moral muscle in some way on a regular basis and then get away saying you're in great moral shape? Who's to say otherwise?

How much better would we be as people if we didn't procrastinate, cheat on our taxes, or spouses or significant others, were less judgmental, more caring, etc. etc. To say you don't need moral uplift on a regular basis is to say you're not human.

So that explains the big "S" on Whynot's chest!

There seems to be confusion; the "S" you see on my chest stands for "Secular"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularity

....but the question remains: Why must you value the S on my chest less than the R (R=Religious) on your chest?

Unlike some of the posters who have responded to you, I have consistently stated that whether one has an "R" or "S" on their chest has no bearing or their tendency to live a moral life, or even my ability to get along with them.

Yes, I would agree that some kind of a "moral uplift" is needed throughout ones life, but I disagree that it must be done via religion.

If I believe anything, it is that "what works for some does not work for all".

But I am not philosopher or theologian, so I take this opportunity to refer you to one of the greatest theologians to have ever lived: Dr Seuss

(ok, let's all sit on the floor in a circle and each take turns reading a paragraph. Johnny, pay attention!)

The Sneetches, by Dr. Seuss

Now, the Star-Bell Sneetches had bellies with stars.

The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.

Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small.

You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all.

But, because they had stars, all the Star-Belly Sneetches

Would brag, “We’re the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches.”

With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they’d snort

“We’ll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!”

And, whenever they met some, when they were out walking,

They’d hike right on past them without even talking.

When the Star-Belly children went out to play ball,

Could a Plain Belly get in the game? Not at all.

You only could play if your bellies had stars

And the Plain-Belly children had none upon thars.

When the Star Belly Sneetches had frankfurter roasts

Or picnics or parties or marshmallow toasts,

They never invited the Plain-Belly Sneetches

They left them out cold, in the dark of the beaches.

They kept them away. Never let them come near.

And that’s how they treated them year after year.

Then ONE day, it seems while the Plain-Belly Sneetches

Were moping and doping alone on the beaches,

Just sitting there wishing their bellies had stars,

A stranger zipped up in the strangest of cars!

“My friends”, he announced in a voice clear and clean,

“My name is Sylvester McMonkey McBean.

And I’ve heard of Your troubles. I’ve heard you’re unhappy.

But I can fix that, I’m the Fix-It-Up Chappie.

I’ve come here to help you.

I have what you need.

And my prices are low. And I work with great speed.

And my work is one hundred per cent guaranteed!”

Then, quickly, Sylvester McMonkey McBean

Put together a very peculiar machine.

And he said, “You want stars like a Star-Belly Sneetch?

My friends, you can have them for three dollars each!”

“Just pay me your money and hop right aboard!”

So they clambered inside. Then the big machine roared.

And it klonked. And it bonked. And it jerked. And it berked.

And it bopped them about. But the thing really worked!

When the Plain-Belly Sneetches popped out, they had stars!

They actually did. They had stars upon thars!

Then they yelled at the ones who had stars at the start,

“We’re still the best Sneetches and they are the worst.

But now, how in the world will we know”, they all frowned,

“If which kind is what, or the other way round?”

Then up came McBean with a very sly wink.

And he said, “Things are not quite as bad as you think.

So you don’t know who’s who. That is perfectly true.

But come with me, friends. Do you know what I’ll do?

I’ll make you, again, the best Sneetches on the beaches.

And all it will cost you is ten dollars eaches.”

“Belly stars are no longer in style”, said McBean.

“What you need is a trip through my Star-Off Machine.

This wondrous contraption will take OFF your stars

so you won’t look like Sneetches that have them on thars.”

And that handy machine working very precisely

Removed all the stars from their tummies quite nicely.

Then, with snoots in the air, they paraded about.

And they opened their beaks and they let out a shout,

“We know who is who! Now there Isn’t a doubt.

The best kind of Sneetches are Sneetches without!”

Then, of course, those with stars got all frightfully mad.

To be wearing a star was frightfully bad.

Then, of course, old Sylvester McMonkey McBean

invited THEM into his Star-Off Machine.

Then, of course from THEN on, as you probably guess,

Things really got into a horrible mess.

All the rest of that day, on those wild screaming beaches,

The Fix-It-Up Chappie kept fixing up Sneetches.

Off again! On again! In again! Out again!

Through the machines they raced round and about again,

Changing their stars every minute or two. They kept paying money.

They kept running through until the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew

Whether this one was that one or that one was this one. Or which one

Was what one or what one was who.

Then, when every last cent of their money was spent,

The Fix-It-Up Chappie packed up. And he went.

And he laughed as he drove In his car up the beach,

“They never will learn. No. You can’t Teach a Sneetch!”

But McBean was quite wrong. I’m quite happy to say.

That the Sneetches got really quite smart on that day.

The day they decided that Sneetches are Sneetches.

And no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches.

That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars and whether

They had one, or not, upon thars.

hiscrownheights

hey ntfool,

Im going to answer your question soon about why I am in faith (no turnaround really, I never was Christian) and maybe a little insight on "devotion to Church" (um, read: dedication to caring for my brothers and sisters in the Lord, and community, and devotion to God) later. I desperately need to go to the laundromat! btw, I am not Catholic now, but I do understand your pains on a number of levels (tithing scars, etc.) It may be beneficial to hash that out briefly when I return. Trust me, it'll explain your question.

homeowner

ntfool wrote:

Damn it! This new format is killing me! Every time I use the "quote" option, my new message appears in the previous posters gray box.

It makes it look like the previous poster has written something further. Argh!

Mod Note: ntfool, when you use the quote button, a blue box should appear around the text that is quoted. Make sure that your cursor is outside of that box and you should be okay. If its still causing you problems even after this let one of us know and we'll flag it to be checked on the back end.

mr. met

How much easier is it though to say you don't need to go to church or exercise your moral muscle in some way on a regular basis and then get away saying you're in great moral shape? Who's to say otherwise?

NOT YOU!

and your argument that church is necessary to exercise your "moral muscle" is pretty silly.

How much better would we be as people if we didn't procrastinate, cheat on our taxes, or spouses or significant others, were less judgmental, more caring, etc. etc.

relevance to religion and/or church?

hiscrownheights

Sure, that's all good, but what's not clear to me in the attached video, and in your story, is what caused you to turn around? What brought you (back?) to faith in a higher power?

Let me briefly answer this first question because I think I've hinted at that before but it'd be good to put it out there. I came at sometime to realize that I was not a good person. I'm a sex and porn addict, very selfish, prideful, mean spirited and ungrateful to my family, a pathological liar, man, um the list goes on. And this isn't a "oh that was me then" type thing. I war with those things in my heart NOW. And no matter how much I tried to put on the happy face and be studious and get good grades, be a nice, courteous gentleman, the truth of the matter is, I needed help. As I got older, more guilt was suppressed and kept on trying to be the nice grade A citizen although these thoughts and actions would occur.

Long story short, I tried every religion I could get around. But come to find out about Jesus (through a Christian hip hop artist), he doesn't say "Here's how to be good and go to heaven." He says "I'm God, and you'll be justifiably cleared, because I've come, died and risen, proving I can beat death, take up your guilt and sin, and then on top of that, I'll let you live with me forever. Believe that? Then all I ask is that you love me, and love people with the same grace and care I love you with." And then it's like "Oh yeah, I know you won't be able to do that, so I'll give you the power to love, even when you don't want to. Even when you hate, lie, and struggle with watching porn. Even after you fail miserably. Let me introduce the Holy Spirit. Now, surrender the guilt and sin to me. Give up on it. I got you, son." And come to find out this wasnt a 2000 year ago thing. This was taught from day one! (er 7, er 7,000..lol) So now I agree with the Sideburns, cuz I know more about me than I care to know lol. And now you know more about me than you care to know lol. I had symptoms, I got a diagnosis, I was given the cure. That was March of 2005. I'm mighty thankful.

OK. why do I go to church then? well, there's a whole bunch of these messed up people too who gather on Sunday and pretty much do this:

The Bible tells us we need to attend church so we can worship God with other believers and be taught by His Word for our spiritual growth (Acts 2:42; Hebrews 10:25). Church is the place where believers can love one another (1 John 4:12), encourage one another (Hebrews 3:13), “spur” one another (Hebrews 10:24), serve one another (Galatians 5:13), instruct one another (Romans 15:14), honor one another (Romans 12:10), and be kind and compassionate to one another (Ephesians 4:32).

The flipside of that is trying to be Christians away from community (yes church is not a building, it too is a community) and battling our mess on our own. thats not too cool. Ever mess with a caged lion or gorilla?

COLOSSIANS 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

why give money to the church I attend? Love, simply. in one aspect it's like "I like shelter. I like running water in my home. I like being able to have people over and talk. So I gotta pay the electric bill, water bill, rent, keep it clean, sweep up." but primarily the Church body is commissioned to "feed the hungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the naked; visit the sick; so far as you can, help those in prison; receive strangers gladly into your own abodes (AND CHURCH!)". So money is used collectively at times to organize that and to do that. So, I look for a solid, bible based local meeting ground, where I can love God and love people.

Now if any pastor is pressuring you specifically to give money at all, when you are in debt or struggling financially, then you should leave. If the gospel doesnt command religiously doing good works to please God, show me where it commands religious, legalistic giving. It doesnt. And I've been burned giving impulsively or pressured to do so, when at the same time I was taking out loans to pay for school and bills. I was wrong.

quick thing: where I go now, if you are struggling financially, nobody is asking you for anything. Every single time someone loses a job or a family gets pregnant, we all in for providing meals, rides, any type of care. Many churches do this out of love not just for their church but for complete strangers as well.

I know that was longwinded. I'm sorry.

whynot_31

It is interesting that HisCrownHeights seems to be very religious, and clearly believes finding religion has turned his life around, yet I have not gotten the vibe from him that others must be religious in order to be (or remain) "moral people".

So far, I have only gotten the vibe that religion really worked for him and if we (I) ever feel a huge void, religion and a faith in god may very well save me from being miserable.

....as someone for whom religion is not a good fit (yet is not anti-religious...), I thank him for his offer, but decline it.

...but I'm also sincerely glad HCH has found something that he truly believes works for him.

HCH, have I read you wrong? ...I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Just to clarify:

In your view, can I (and others) live a moral life without being religious?

A closely related question, can the followers of non-christian religions ( Jews, Muslims, etc) have a moral life?

Can someone who is actually opposed to religion, (i.e. not just an atheist but an actual "anti-theist"), live a moral life?

Assuming we find a way to do the intense work it takes to be a moral person in this world, are we (whatever variety of Sneech we happen to be ....see above) JUST AS LIKELY AND ABLE to live a moral life as someone who is able to find comradery via a church and religion?

(conversation can be in person if you prefer not to get carpal tunnel and/or receive comments from random readers.....)

mha

OSJ....

OSJ!

OSJ!!

HCH, more power to you man. Seriously. I mean, if what debilitates and handicaps my own personal growth could be stanched by a belief in anything not apparent to the 5/6 senses then yeah, I wouldn't listen to me either. Faith doesn't belong to any jurisdiction determined by a rational epistemology.

hiscrownheights

@ whynot

i think you have got me wrong. i believe salvation for all is found in Christ and Christ alone. I believe that no one is perfectly moral only God is. I would be glad to talk to you more about that offline and explain without murdering my thumbs and wrists lol.

ntfool

Yeah, like whynot said, good for you HCH. As previously stated, I certainly admire your faith. I won't pretend to be a believer, but in a completely non-condescending way, I'm happy for you.

Regarding the pressure I felt with the tithing, that was actually a long, long time ago. Probably 25 years. My problems with the Church started there and compounded for at least a decade of attendance in fits and starts thereafter, until I decided I was fooling myself and was done.

But hey, good for you. I've lived a very content life with the absence of what you would consider God for pretty much my entire adulthood. Takes all kinds to make the world go around, Jesus or not. And there's room for everyone... Atheists, Jews, Muslims and non-Christians included.

whynot_31

HCH-

so noted.

BTW, I don't think anyone was claiming they were "perfectly moral"; we are all on this strange adventure and are hopefully improving ourselves as we go.

As noted above, I personally just wish to be viewed as being "moral", no "perfectly" in front.

....christ doesn't work for a bunch of us, but I'm pretty sure that we'll all turn out the same in the end: Dirt.

I have lots of religious family members and friends, some of whom think the answer they have found is the "only one", so I can't say a friendship won't work.

I hope you have a diverse group of folks in your life as well, and don't make them feel they are "less than". ...we tend to pick up on such things.

It was good seeing you again at Kosher Pizza event. Yes, let's get together again. ....who knows what will evolve from this group next.

hiscrownheights

I hope you have a diverse group of folks in your life as well, and don't make them feel they are "less than". ...we tend to pick up on such things.

Yeah, we do. And it seems to be getting more diverse. *smiles* yes yes, we must again. That was pretty dope last time. Maybe next time, we can arrange where we can all talk without something impeding our line of sight?

whynot_31

yup

capt. planet

mr. met wrote:

How much easier is it though to say you don't need to go to church or exercise your moral muscle in some way on a regular basis and then get away saying you're in great moral shape? Who's to say otherwise?

NOT YOU!

and your argument that church is necessary to exercise your "moral muscle" is pretty silly.

How much better would we be as people if we didn't procrastinate, cheat on our taxes, or spouses or significant others, were less judgmental, more caring, etc. etc.

relevance to religion and/or church?

If not me, then who?

If a "friend" says you look flabby and out of shape, you tend to get huffy, right?

What if that same friend says you're a hypocrite, because you claim to be moral but do nothing to support that contention?

My concern is different from HCH's in that I'm more concerned about "society" than my personal salvation.

If society at large has drifted away from church, for all of the reasons cited in this thread, ie, my church lied to me, made me miserable, etc., then what will replace it? Nothing seems to be general response.

Is this just evasion of responsibility? Is the loser society, as reflected in the declining levels of civic involvement, pathetic creeps we have for elected officials, disengagement from discussions about the fate of human kind and generally an apathetic attitude about life in general?

whynot_31

Capt, do you really believe that you have the ability to determine whether someone is moral by judging whether they are taking actions to your satisfaction?

If so, you may be not only getting closer to your god in church ...you may be actually BECOMING god. (kinda spooky)

So, to Capt, it seems as if merely attending church and hanging out with other church folk automatically gives folks something like 60 points, out of the possible 100. Assuming I wanted to compete in the game, how would us non-believers ever score as high given such a home field advantage?

Yea, let's forget the possibility of an afterlife for a moment: Why can't one actively pursue "perfect morality" outside of a church?

....what about those atheists, jews and muslims, etc? Do they get points toward for moving humanity ahead and being moral? (Assuming no one ever achieves 100, can we at lest get I dunno 85? 85 is a pretty respectable number. I'd like folks that got an 85)

Can you show that the world has actually gotten worse since the decline of religion?

Can you even show that religion has declined? ....I see a lot of religions thriving.

....As you are aware, when religion doesn't improve people's outlook on the world, a lot of people try something else. For example, in the first world, anti-depressants have helped millions see the brighter side of life.

As a fellow human, I advise you that there's nothing wrong with letting someone else worry abut the fate of the world for a while, and enjoying your life. (please compare and contrast with the judgement you seem to be doling re: people not doing enough).

But, I can't say your judgement of me (and other non-church goers makes me "huffy".

If you have ever spend quality time with a cop or a teacher, you learn the value of working your shift and then going home. You don't expect to change the world during your shift. It is a strategy that prevents burn out. Exhausted, burnt out cops and teachers serve no one after all.

Sticking with that analogy: In the big picture, our lives are nothing but 8 hour shifts. That view doesn't make me apathetic or a nihilist, it just makes me a little more pleasant to be around and someone who knows their limitations.

....unlike you, I seem to view this world as slowly getting better. As a result of global warming and nuclear weapons, will we someday make it uninhabitable? Maybe. Will it happen in my lifetime? Hopefully not.

....but regardless of when and if we destroy ourselves, a million years later, life will again arise from the primordial ooze. ....a million years after that, we will congratulate ourselves for inventing the nuclear bomb and internal combustion engine, and the cycle will repeat.

[I can't embed you tube videos at work, so this link will have to suffice: http://www.google.com/search?q=circle+of+life+lyrics&tbo=p&tbs=vid%3A1&source=vgc&hl=en&aq=2&oq=circle+of+]

mha

Does no one see the implications of CP's and HCH's argument??? Am I the only one? Implicit in what they say, indeed, implicit in how they see the world is that if you are not like them, going to church, being close to god, seeking 'salvation' through their god, then they are BETTER than thou. That's the silent assessment of their creed.

So while we struggle in this community, trying to make it better, they gather in their churches, praise their lord, and raise their noses at the 'sin' around them. They aren't about making the world a better place, their about continually convincing themselves that they are better than the world. Enough of this.

mr. met

What if that same friend says you're a hypocrite, because you claim to be moral but do nothing to support that contention?

I see. So church is like the Morality Gym?

If society at large has drifted away from church, for all of the reasons cited in this thread, ie, my church lied to me, made me miserable, etc., then what will replace it? Nothing seems to be general response.

If society at large drifts away from church, that's society's way of saying that it has realized it doesn't need or want it anymore. Sorry. And what should replace churches? I'd be fine with a bunch of McDonald's and condos.

ntfool

MHA wrote:

Does no one see the implications of CP's and HCH's argument??? Am I the only one? Implicit in what they say, indeed, implicit in how they see the world is that if you are not like them, going to church, being close to god, seeking 'salvation' through their god, then they are BETTER than thou. That's the silent assessment of their creed.

Come on now, I don't see what the problem with that is. I believe I'm better than most people!

Granted, for obviously different reasons than you purport with Capt. and HCH, but still.

hiscrownheights

MHA, take what I say at face value. I think what you think I am implying is different than what I believe. That's why I prefer offline conversations than typing.

Hey CP, my "personal" salvation isn't really personal at all, and from it, it metes into society. Maybe we might be on the same page.

For example, what makes a person who is a decent employee turn up gunning down his office building after being terminated? We've seen these type of stories in the news. Fort Hood? Waco? Suicides, theft (Madoff), and robbery commited by wealthy, seemingly happy people. Those are my questions.

It doesnt make much sense except that what's done in the dark, in the mind, in the home, comes to light. In the community, in the office, in our homes. People lead and live very moral lives. I agree with that. End of discussion for me at least.

whynot_31

Ntfool, I sincerely believe my dog is better than most people, but I keep my mouth shut about it because I'm told such statements offend.

HCH, I have no answers to your questions. But I'm glad you realize the rest of us are moral too.

MrMet, damn you for making me crave McDonalds.

mha

Well,

It's one thing to think you are better than most; but it's another to think you are better than most and that the most will burn in hell...

whynot_31

MHA, let's keeping thinking we will be merely dirt when this is done, and work a "good shift" (as described above).

mha

And this is why I can't stand Christians. There arrogance activates my gag reflex. And the thing is, they look at those in the world with (a condescending love) LOVE! So here they are looking at you, and looking at me with LOVE, and thinking, 'if only they loved Jesus, they wouldn't burn in hell...'

Ain't that some shit?!

booklaw

MHA, I find myself in the totally uncomfortable position of agreeing with you, without reservation.

From HCH's first posts on this site, (s)he has been proselytizing. The problem I have with true believers is that they seldom rest content with their beliefs; they too often believe it is their solemn duty to impose their beliefs upon others.

This is especially true, in my personal experience, of "born-agains". I've had business acquaintances walk into my office for a scheduled business meeting, take out their Bibles, and attempt to convert me on the spot.

I don't mind whatever anyone chooses to believe (or not believe) in terms of a personal deity, so long as he keeps it to himself and doesn't try to share it with me, my children, or my federal, state, or local governments.

hiscrownheights

REPOST:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

If I truly believe that, there are NO grounds for me being condescending in any way shape of form. I seriously apologize again if I have come off that way at any point.

I've been accused of a lot during this conversation. It's probably my fault. I was asked a question, and I answered it. Or was I not supposed to? I get so confused.

mha

What am I, the Devil? LOL! Why do folks feel so uncomfortable agreeing with me? LOL! I am going to compile all of the equivocations that accompany expressions of agreement with mha.

Speaking of 'true believers', I totally recommend Eric Hoffer's 'True Believer'. Great book. Also, I hope that all Christians will take the time to read a book about atheism.

Booklaw, I share your consternation. I had a very good friend who became a 'born again...', and our friendship fell apart because in his eyes I was a blasphemer, and idolator, an adulterer, a sinner, et. al.... I was all things he was not, and he told me quite calmly, he could no longer be my friend, nor could I 'consort' with his children. It was crazy; he was crazy. Jesus drove him to madness...

Epilogue: All of the 'Thou shalt not(s)' drove him bonkers and he impregnated some young chick; ruined his family.

hiscrownheights

Booklaw, I share your consternation. I had a very good friend who became a 'born again...', and our friendship fell apart because in his eyes I was a blasphemer, and idolator, an adulterer, a sinner, et. al.... I was all things he was not, and he told me quite calmly, he could no longer be my friend, nor could I 'consort' with his children. It was crazy; he was crazy. Jesus drove him to madness...

So based on this experience with this friend, that is why you cant stand all Christians?

I was all things he was not.

Mm. If he actually said that then I would disagree with them. I won't speak on anything else because I don't know you or him well enough to make any comments.

whynot_31

which could move us to the next chapter in this conversation....

What if the born again (and fundamentalists of other religions as well) are correct, in that the simple familiarity of people to other people is an inherent threat to their feelings of "superiority" or "relative moral excellence", or liklihood of going to heaven.

(it isn't a new concept, but I'll do a little typing nonetheless)

For example,

Let's imagine I am a born again.

...then I make some jewish/muslim/hindi/budist/atheist friends, and realize that all-in-all, they are about as moral as I am YET don't believe what I believe or even go to services regularly.

After a while, I wonder:

Why must I believe in the tenets of my faith? Why must I go to services?

.....these people are not evil. How will I be evil if I become one of them?

As the world becomes "smaller" and we come into contact with more people unlike ourselves, the relevance of all religions may be called into question.

....and in those places where religion is intact (such as the midwest of the US, and the middle east) we will see people increasingly ostracize those who are different from them in a desperate attempt to maintain their religions and cultures.

Fundamentalists of all varieties will congregate in small communities in order to fight off the encroaching cultures. As Booklaw fears, they will become the majority to the extent that they are able to infiltrate the local governments and school boards (i.e. parts of Kansas and Texas).

[As a outsider, I find the phenomena not particularly threatening, and at the moment think we will let them have their "islands of faith" and not both them, while the rest go thru a period of increasing "sameness"

....of course, eventually we will again find new criteria to break ourselves apart. Ah, the Sneechs and Stars on thars! ....so fun to watch and read]

hiscrownheights

What if the born again (and fundamentalists of other religions as well) are correct, in that the simple exposer of people to other people is a inherent threat to their superiority.

I'm confused by what u typed in the above bolded.