Educational Proficiency of Black Students Lags Behind
Comments
-
Bob Herbert responds to the Times article referenced in the title of this thread. In line with my previous comments, I think he makes sense. -
xlizellx wrote:
3 - Oh at a Charter School? Have you see that Superman Movie? ...NO. I am teaching kids who NEED someone stable in their lives. Kids in charter schools clearly have 1 thing going for them already: Parents who give a sh*t enough to even enroll them in a lottery to get into the school. Whether the charter school itself is good or not, at least they worried about their kid's education to even a small degree and tried to be proactive about it.
^^^This
I do not have children, but I'm extremely bothered by this movement toward charter schools and as whynot pointed out, there should be a lot of concern for the children left behind in public schools in the situation you just pointed out. -
I get the concept of wanting to make sure that all children have an option for a good education, but why should parents who do care, but lack the means to send their child to private schools be forced to keep their kids in schools with kids who aren't there to learn?
In NY for years those parents were consigned to either shipping their kids all over town to get them to a "good" school or being the bearers of the disproportionate burden of dealing with the reprecussions of having a kid in a school where education was not the top priority. So why not allow them to opt into another educational setting?
We really need to re-examine what the right to a free education means. We should all be fighting for the best educational system for everyone. But if we are not, how can we say to a group of parents "if you want a better education for your kids, move to a better part of town" when we know that that is just not a viable option? Why can't parent who care be given some semblance of choice? -
In many ways, Charter schools fill the gap that the Catholic schools used to fill, before they started to disappear.
[Catholic schools were obviously religious, and parents paid tuition, so the analogy isn't perfect]
...less popular than the Waiting for Superman film was one called The Lottery:
http://thelotteryfilm.com/about
(it's worth the rental)
But back on topic:
I'm all for giving motivated parents and kids (including ones who can't afford to live in the "right" district) a safe, productive school, complete with rules, structure and learning.
But as xlizelx seems to agree, as a result of recent unfunded mandates regarding "inclusive special education", traditional public schools are, in many ways ...increasingly screwed.
While everyone wants every child to succeed, let's not kid ourselves: We want our own kids to succeed the most.
Parent: "I don't really care why the local school can't get that damn bully (culture? teacher?) out of my kid's class. I'll take my kid to a school that can"
....and so, the charter school movement began, and now there is no stopping it.
While I sympathize with public school teachers and the "academic dregs" they will be increasingly left with ....there may be a time that they, too, need to swallow their conscience and leave the dregs behind.
Afterall, they are professionals who are trained to teach... not security guards or mental health technicians [psst, thats what they call orderlies now...].
Parent: "It's not my fault that kid doesn't have a functional family. We can't all be middle class. This is a competition. I'm going to make sure my kid gets what they need to do alright."
Which brings us to "a" and "b":
a. The kids who are left in public schools may do worse than they otherwise would have, now that the caring (voting? tax paying?) parents and well behaved kids have left the building.
b. The kids in charter schools may do better now that they are free from the dregs.
On a societal, macro basis, will the gains from "b" exceed the losses from "a"? ....I have no idea.
.....will the combination of charter schools and traditional public schools close the achievement gap? Time will tell.
I just know that this experiment is not going to stop anytime soon, and if I were in charge of the UFT (god forbid...) I would focus my energies on getting the "disruptive kids" OUT of regular schools, instead of trying to force the "good kids" to stay IN regular schools.
...and would likely be called "uncaring" and "racist" everyday, despite pursuing a strategy I believe would benefit the most people regardless of race, and given limited resources.
Hence, I will sit here instead, and shake my head in resignation at how even more screwed the public schools are about to become.
....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.
P.S. If appointed schools chancellor or UFT president, I promise not to use the word "dreg". -
homeowner wrote:
I get the concept of wanting to make sure that all children have an option for a good education, but why should parents who do care, but lack the means to send their child to private schools be forced to keep their kids in schools with kids who aren't there to learn?
In NY for years those parents were consigned to either shipping their kids all over town to get them to a "good" school or being the bearers of the disproportionate burden of dealing with the reprecussions of having a kid in a school where education was not the top priority. So why not allow them to opt into another educational setting?
We really need to re-examine what the right to a free education means. We should all be fighting for the best educational system for everyone. But if we are not, how can we say to a group of parents "if you want a better education for your kids, move to a better part of town" when we know that that is just not a viable option? Why can't parent who care be given some semblance of choice?
So we continue down this path and not help children who lack advocates? -
yup. Like it or not, we are part of the machine.
....and we can only hope the gains outweigh the losses in the long run. -
whynot_31 wrote:
....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.
I find it really sad and extremely unfortunate when parents opt out instead of trying to change the school. I wish more parents got as involved as those at schools like PS9. At one time it was a pretty bad school, but has steadily improved over the years.
I also find it interesting that charter school advocates aren't being honest about the situation at those schools. Majority of them do no better than public schools and a good number of them are actually worse. I personally wouldn't send my child to one unless I was 100% certain it was outperforming any other option I had. -
Ishtar wrote:
whynot_31 wrote:
....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.
I find it really sad and extremely unfortunate when parents opt out instead of trying to change the school. I wish more parents got as involved as those at schools like PS9. At one time it was a pretty bad school, but has steadily improved over the years.
I also find it interesting that charter school advocates aren't being honest about the situation at those schools. Majority of them do no better than public schools and a good number of them are actually worse. I personally wouldn't send my child to one unless I was 100% certain it was outperforming any other option I had.
I think for a lot of folks this discussion changes when you have kids. You don't want to wait for steady improvement, you want your kid to learn to read this year, to have a safe environment on day one and to be in a classroom with kids that are not so seriously emotionally damaged such that they can't stop themselves from hurting others or interrupting the learning.
Parents are willing to risk it when they arrive in year 3, 4, or 5 of steady improvement. When there has been no improvement in the educational level in 15 years, or worse, there has been a steady decline, convincing parents to take a chance, especially with elementary school kids is a hard thing to do.
Xlizellx and any other teachers that want to weigh in, would you send your kids to the school where you teach? -
BTW, the 13 pages of comments that can be found on the The Lottery's message board echo our own mini-conversation on this issue.
http://thelotteryfilm.com/messageBoard
It would be difficult to say we missed much. ...a fine conversation indeed.
------to the OP-----
Ms. Krow-
Have we answered your questions? -
My son is now 14 and was a student at PS 9 from 2000 to 2007. There was no way my husband or I could afford private school nor did we make little enough to qualify for any type of scholarships. There has always been parent involvement at PS 9. The problem is that many of the parents did not have the ability to bring about change, i.e., worked at full-time jobs (sometimes 2); did not have the connections to bring in additional services; and/or did not have the extra money to donate to the school. The teachers at the school were fantastic and there was not one that I came across who would not go above and beyond to help those students who needed it. One of the things that I think really helped with the PS 9 community is there were workshops that they ran. Some were purely for fun like scrapbooking, and some were more like how to understand the new math.
Another thing that PS 9 did that helped them turn around was that all students were required to stay for an extra period of after school. Those students who needed tutoring got it and those who did not took enrichment classes like art or robotics.
I also think that many teachers hands are tied because they must teach children to "take tests" intead of teaching children how to study. It puts them in a Catch 22 position where the BOE wants test results up but these kids don't learn how to study on their own.
There are many parents who lack the skills necessary to help their children. Some do not understand healthy nutrition (which plays a HUGE part in helping them concentrate in school - I kid you not I heard a parent say that they let their kid each cheese doodles for breakfast because it has cheese!!). But here I agree with others, it is up the parent to keep communication open with the teacher. If the parent needs help they have to ask to get it.
I would love to see more power given to an individual teacher. Teachers get to know your child, their home and financial situation and can make a much better asssessment of their strengths and weaknesses. These teachers should be allowed to require chidlren to stay for mandatory tutoring.
I work very hard at keeping my son on the straight and narrow in school. I keep in contact with teachers and make myself available for them when needed. I truly believe that all schools are good. If your child is a good student they can thrive. In order to change the system you have to get involved and let your voice be heard. My son has been to two public schools now in District 13 (PS 9 and Park Place Community Middle School) and has thrived at these schools. He is now in a gifted program in high school and I have to say that I owe alot of that to the education he received at these public schools.
Oh and I am a product of the 70-80's Brooklyn public school system.
(Whew - this an MHA-worthy post
). -
homeowner wrote:
Ishtar wrote:
whynot_31 wrote:
....while simultaneously not judging Homeowner for making the choice she describes.
I find it really sad and extremely unfortunate when parents opt out instead of trying to change the school. I wish more parents got as involved as those at schools like PS9. At one time it was a pretty bad school, but has steadily improved over the years.
I also find it interesting that charter school advocates aren't being honest about the situation at those schools. Majority of them do no better than public schools and a good number of them are actually worse. I personally wouldn't send my child to one unless I was 100% certain it was outperforming any other option I had.
I think for a lot of folks this discussion changes when you have kids. You don't want to wait for steady improvement, you want your kid to learn to read this year, to have a safe environment on day one and to be in a classroom with kids that are not so seriously emotionally damaged such that they can't stop themselves from hurting others or interrupting the learning.
Parents are willing to risk it when they arrive in year 3, 4, or 5 of steady improvement. When there has been no improvement in the educational level in 15 years, or worse, there has been a steady decline, convincing parents to take a chance, especially with elementary school kids is a hard thing to do.
Xlizellx and any other teachers that want to weigh in, would you send your kids to the school where you teach?
Unfortunately most things aren't working and most parents opting to try charter schools aren't getting anything better. Seriously sucks for them. All that effort for what's more likely to be the same crappy outcome. -
"Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school. The proportion of charters that get amazing results is far smaller than 17 percent.Why did Davis Guggenheim pay no attention to the charter schools that are run by incompetent leaders or corporations mainly concerned to make money? Why propound to an unknowing public the myth that charter schools are the answer to our educational woes, when the filmmaker knows that there are twice as many failing charters as there are successful ones? Why not give an honest accounting?"
These schools are disproportionately opening in communities of color and I think blacks should seriously be alarmed at this experimentation in their communities. -
Ishtar wrote:
"Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school. The proportion of charters that get amazing results is far smaller than 17 percent.Why did Davis Guggenheim pay no attention to the charter schools that are run by incompetent leaders or corporations mainly concerned to make money? Why propound to an unknowing public the myth that charter schools are the answer to our educational woes, when the filmmaker knows that there are twice as many failing charters as there are successful ones? Why not give an honest accounting?"
These schools are disproportionately opening in communities of color and I think blacks should seriously be alarmed at this experimentation in their communities.
Just for clarity: Ishtar pulled the quote from the film's comment section, but links back here by mistake.
Yes, I could not agree more.
We have a situation in which people are desperate, and they will try ANYTHING.
....in this way, charter schools have the power of a someone promising an untested cure to someone with cancer.
Researcher: Do you consent to my untested treatment?
Patient: I'm certainly going to die without any treatment, so yes.
....wherein the charter school takes on the role of the untested treatment, and education at zoned public schools is viewed as being "without any treatment".
But, despite this dire choice, I really want them to work. I really want more middle class black families to be created.
As a result of such "lotteries", I really want more of the working class and poverty class families to see that their kid could learn, and then move ahead in our class structure too if they became heavily involved in their kid's education and life ....even if they (for example) are not literate or particularly employable. -
Sorry about the link screw up. Here is the correct link:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/
I completely agree, whynot_31. -
We now return to traditional public schools, and how they can be made to work in Crown Heights.
An article about the High School for Public Service, located on the grounds of Windgate high school
http://www.citylimits.org/conversations/121/making-urban-high-schools-work
P.S. The article does not mention that kids have to take and pass a test in order to get into the school. ....it still has an "urban population", and it seems to have found a way that kids can be reached and learn.....it also seems to know how to get good press, which of course makes it a destination, which of course breeds more success
http://www.citylimits.org/slideshow/412/from-chad-to-crown-heights-speaking-truth-to-power -
Xlizellx and any other teachers that want to weigh in, would you send your kids to the school where you teach?
No. I would not.
I think there are some GREAT teachers at my school. And there are some great students that I get to work with from time to time. If you said "hey, xlizellx, you can pick 25 students and remove them from your school. then would you send your kids there?" I think my answer might be different.
But I see a fist-fight a day. I hear cursing, hate-speech, screaming, etc. I see absolute disrespect for adults, vandalism, and destruction of property. I feel that sense of fear -scared for safety- in a lot of classrooms because one child is out of control and three or four other students are in a flight-or-fight mode and so now 5 kids in the classroom of 30 are putting their hands on people,, screaming, etc.
How am I to EFFECTIVELY teach when this is happening?
Example of what whynot was talking about:
Last week I was in a meeting. I left my lesson plans for the sub for the period. I returned to FIVE boys sitting in the office. I had to call all of their parents about a fight I wasn't there for. Apparently boys A and B both thought the other bumped into them when walking in the room so they both threw punches (why that would be their first reaction is my biggest concern). Boy C tried to break them up by grabbing boy A. Boys D and E are good friends with boy A so they grabbed boy C (a kid trying to do the right thing but shouldn't have gotten involved) and so they started hitting him to get him off of boy A.
All of this happened in less than 60 seconds. By the time the sub got to the boys Boy B had broken glasses and boy C had a black eye. They are in third grade.
The consequences? We met with the parents. Talked about how fighting is not the answer. Reminded the boys about our plan to "walk away or tell an adult" if someone does something, etc. But when they sit there and just keep saying "but he hit me first!" you can say "yes, but you can't hit him back" only so many times before you go insane.
No suspension. No detention. No NOTHING. What can we do? And even if we did have the ability to do something, who cares? As the boys on The Wire showed, suspension in the city simply means a day off of school. Sounds good to me.Something needs to change in the way they react - and something needs to change in how they see adults react. When a parent threatens a teacher, pulls a gun in the lobby, screams at another person's kid, hits another parent, etc....how am I to tell these boys to keep their hands and mean words to themselves. The phrase "just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it" should be taught to some parents before a kid will pay you any attention.
Sorry -- this became more of a rant than a meaningful post. I do love a lot of what I do. But a few kids can really make it tough to do what you love to do.
-
An article in the WSJ appears on the subject today, and I perceive it to be pretty balanced.
Please read the whole thing to get the full view of the struggle at hand....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704615504576172853056853260.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
-
The Smiley and West show recently discussed the NAACP's decision to sue NYC regarding its charter school implementation plans.
The conversation is worth listening to.
-
As the father of a now-almost-five year old daughter who has been enrolled at PS 316, on Classon and Sterling, I must say that we've been incredibly pleased and relieved with our daughter's school thus far.Honestly, when we found out we were having a kid (what feels like so, so long ago), we were horrified. Public school? In Crown Heights? God no! But we surely couldn't afford private school and, after some research and site tours, weren't thrilled with the charter school options. However, after seeing PS 316, hearing about the the new (at the time) principal and her initiatives, we went for it. No looking back, no complaints. But I understand that we have an incredibly rare, lucky situation. We were already zoned for what happened to be one of the better elementary schools in the area.
If we weren't, I honestly don't know what we would've done.
-
I grew up poor and in nyc. the kids in the projects used to make fun of me, me and my brother would wear the same shitty clothes to school all the time, my parents came straight from the chinese country side without educations.
they don't know english to know there are programs out for them. later on they learn about the programs but they are too proud of people to take government hangouts.
we would have instant noodles all day long for years. couldn't eat cafeteria foods. took me many years to get used to cheese foods. cheese is a acquire taste. alot of foods have cheese in them.
I grew up poor and malnutrition. I was home with my brother living in a basement for years. lol would be criminal these days
young kids alone, in a illegal basement etc...but thats what my parents could afford at that time. they are good peoples just not educated. my parents are no different than people with single family homes. my folks work 7 days a week. rarely saw them, my dad used to work out of state for years, would come home maybe every few months. he used to work by where mike Tyson lived in nj. he said he jog with him few times lol.
i taught myself everything from bike riding to swimming etc...
I thought myself to read and write. Not in grammar to save my life. But i can read very well. Teachers would just sit me back of the class. I got very few good teachers, the good ones were the sci and history teachers mostly. I was the only immigrant kid in class/school at the time. moved around alot till hs.
that's when we brought our first place.
I have done illegal work as a worker in garment industry and restaurant work as a kid. money is money, when you need money you go work for it.
from my personal experience being poor isn't a obstacle to educating yourself. its matter of knowing yourself. people use way too many excuses to blame everyone else for their problems.
When i was growing up here in nyc in the 80's i was beaten almost daily by the jealous ghetto kids for stealing their jobs. not that any of their parents would work in those conditions. some of the adults would just curse at me on the way home from school if the kids aren't chasing me. to them japanese chinese all look the same. walking home in the 80's wasn't fun, it was a gauntlet, literally running and taking long detours back home.
one of my friends got spit on the bus other day. and told to go home etc... he wasn't doing anything wrong, just some ghetto bitch didn't think he was worthy of the space he was in. I told him to knock her out, people like that has no respect for anyone. but they will think twice about doing it to a stranger for no reason again.
I learn this lesson along time ago. for years i took the beatings etc.. the only reason i took the beatings cause my uneducated parents thought that if we fought back we might be kick out of the country etc.... they don't know the laws. I listen to their word on the law for along time.
by the time i learn this i fought back. I would usually take 2 kids on and beat them, and run when more of their friends show up, they always go oh the chinese kid could fight etc.. they'll leave me alone for a week and same kids would pick on me again. same thing repeats. mostly cowards. I started a protection gang for nerds back in the early 90's lol. last time i heard from them was back in hs, apparently they went real gangsters when i moved out of the hood, from good guys to bad guys.
I hate the china basing today same thing as the 80's japanese bashing on tv. leads all the kids and adults to hate. if society apply the same vitriol it has on china on race, it would be consider hate by the NAACP.
I still got assholes yell at me on the streets to go back home etc..the violence rarely happens, but still does, mostly racial slurs while visiting low income areas or riding public transport. always minding my own business and across the street or in the car. some idiot would yell something.
two of my friends made it from being poor. all other childhood friends are just wasting carbon. they didn't learn the same lessons we learn, use the idiots on the block and school as examples not to be.
work hard take any jobs, not selective oh these are immigrant jobs etc......
can't blame society forever responsibility at the end of the day where matters down to the individual.
Oh i was left back twice in elementary school, till i learn how to pass the reading test. I taught myself to read by doing dr seuss and comics. with comics and dr seuss i had clues to what the pictures were about and i had a dictionary and a picture dictionary to know what all the words were about.
-
my whole point is this is not a 3rd world country, tons of money is spent on education. you can learn if you wish and work for it yourself. don't throw more money on the problem. when is it enough?
people can't blame oh not enough money on education etc... when compare to 3rd world, these kids are getting a ton of funding. yet i'm sure with the money spent on 3rd world educations go farther than the kids here. kids and families here are too entitled.
-
Correct: a parent led revolution which puts all of the onus on the schools and taxpayers is doomed to fail.
I suspect that Smiley and West know that real change will only come as result of having everyone on board.
Until then, Charter Schools seem to be the rage.
BTW, nice piece AW.
-
PBS, NEA, Open Society, et al apply their lens to the problem again.
....they put their focus on those least likely to to succeed: males.
-
Today's NYT argues that the achievement gap between low income students and high income students is where we should focus, but we instead focus on the gap based on race....
It's a pretty good article, but I must say I remain surprised that Charles Murray is quoted. This means he survived being labelled a fan of eugenics back in the 1990s by the academic left.
-
Today's NYT argues that the achievement gap between low income students and high income students is where we should focus, but we instead focus on the gap based on race....
It's a pretty good article, but I must say I remain surprised that Charles Murray is quoted. This means he survived being labelled a fan of eugenics back in the 1990s by the academic left.
-
Today's NYT argues that the achievement gap between low income students and high income students is where we should focus, but we instead focus on the gap based on race....
It's a pretty good article, but I must say I remain surprised that Charles Murray is quoted. This means he survived being labelled a fan of eugenics back in the 1990s by the academic left.
-
A well written article on just how far behind the average low income student is in elementary school, appeared in today's NYT:
-
When school officials handed out copies of The Narrative Life of Frederick Douglass, they said they hoped students would connect with the abolitionist’s struggle learning to read at a time when African-Americans were largely prohibited from becoming literate.
That’s exactly what 13-year-old Jada Williams did, drawing a parallel between Douglass’ experience and those of many of her classmates in the City School District. And in an essay that she turned in at School 3, she compared illiteracy among city school students about 75 percent can not read at a level appropriate for their age to a modern day form of slavery.
“When I find myself sitting in a crowded classroom where no real instruction is taking place I can say history does repeat itself,” Jada wrote in her essay, according to the Democrat and Chronicle.
“I feel like not much has changed. Just different people. Different era. The same old discrimination still resides in the hearts of the white man.”
Jada is 13.
Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 40K All Categories
- 27.1K Neighborhoods
- 5.1K Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
- 7.1K Prospect Heights
- 2.3K Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy
- 8K Park Slope
- 549 Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick
- 442 Flatbush/Midwood/Ditmas Park
- 657 BoCoCa (Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens)
- 151 Red Hook
- 104 Gowanus
- 304 Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst
- 130 Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay
- 270 Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Downtown
- 598 Windsor Terrace / Kensington
- 673 Greenwood Heights and Sunset Park
- 749 Brooklyn and Beyond
- 6.3K Stuff
- 86 Brooklyn Back When
- 1.2K Brooklyn Pets
- 257 Brooklyn Kids
- 241 Brooklyn Eats
- 51 Brooklyn Booze
- 3.6K The Lounge / Random Stuff
- 611 Brooklyn Politics
- 122 Brooklyn Sports and Fitness
- 111 Brooklyn Photos
- 339 Site Issues
- 8 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- 6.2K Listings
- 1.1K APARTMENTS and REAL ESTATE
- 1.3K Sales Openings Events
- 2.3K The Classifieds