OMG Not another 99 cent store!!

krowonhill

I am a proponent of Jane Jacobs' style controlled gentrification. I believe that Nostrand Ave. would benefit from more diversity of goods and services. I believe that socioeconomic diversity benefits a neighborhood.

But, to be fair, NostrandPark, although you say that you are advocating for "low-income residents," I think the reality is that (in this post at least) you are speaking for people like you. Your post values certain types of retail establishments over others by mentioning them by name, i.e. restaurant, clothing store, art gallery. This is the wish list of a professional-class, recent arrival to the neighborhood. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there are certainly class implications.

In fact, looking at the data you present (Retail MarketPlace Profile, attached), the biggest "pent up demand" by far is for "Motor Vehicle & Parts Dealers" (with a retail gap of $60 million - is that possible?). The survey says that Crown Heights is actually relatively well-served by "Food & Beverage Stores", and that there is more on offer in the "Book, Periodical, and Music Stores" category than the people of Crown Heights want. Which makes me think an art gallery may not be a smart investment here.

I have no problem with businesses opening on Nostrand that cater to a middle-class clientele. (I do have an issue with all businesses suddenly catering to a middle-class clientele.) When those businesses do open up though (and they will), let's not fool ourselves about who wants or needs them. Poor people will still be shopping at the dollar stores. And, hopefully, also at the newly-arrived Automotive Parts store.

Personally, I love dollar stores. Ah, the lovely, chaotic clutter! The randomness! The possibilities! Did you know they sell dresses from H & M for $4.99 at the one on Franklin Ave.? I don't think dollar stores are inferior at all. I think they're exciting and fun. Perhaps I reveal my own class origins?

trumystic

I love love love dollar stores!

Personally, I love dollar stores. Ah, the lovely, chaotic clutter! The randomness! The possibilities! Did you know they sell dresses from H & M for $4.99 at the one on Franklin Ave.?

Which one is this south or north of the Parkway? I will add it to my rotation.

whynot_31

whynot wrote: If I had some cash, I'd invest in a commercial property somewhere along the EP to Atlantic strip.

bentley wrote: Ditto.

I think a nice, sit down, upscale restaurant (like that place Brooklyn Exposure on nearby Bedford Ave that has been there for years) would be a nice addition to Nostrand.

That place is really yummy. It turns into a night club catering to professionals at night.

I'd buy a building that could support that type of use.

stacey

If I were to cater to the neighborhood I would open a nursing uniform store. the demand alone would allow you to keep the prices low.

cool the kid

Didn't read thru the thread but I agree w/MHA's first response

Nostrand Ave residents are served perfectly by the businesses available to them. The avg Nostrandite doesn't give a shit about sushi, and to take the liberty of pushing the wants of the minority as representative of the neighborhood at large is a surefire way to open a failing business.

Franklin is a decent walk/short bike ride/shorter bus ride away, Vandy is a nice bike ride/bus ride away. Nostrand will NEVER be Franklin/Vandy.

mr. met

Krowonhill:

There are dollar stores all over nostrand. I don't understand anyone that has a problem with wanting anything other than a dollar store on that strip.

cool the kid

I agree w/krowonhill too... dollar stores can be good for cheap little things like sweatpants and dish soap. How often do you need something like a sponge vs go out for sushi? It seems the businesses of Nostrand ave are grossly underutilized by its growing professional class

whynot_31

I don't think anyone needs to worry about the disappearance of dollar stores. Discount goods have a bright future.

....but a variety of business are coming. I just hope they don't over estimate the wealth of the neighborhood and quickly fail.

As usual, time will tell.

...When there are more neighborhood amenities, more people with money will move in to support them or, as NostrandPark points out, simply be able to spend their money locally.

mr. met

There are 99 cent stores all over the strip! There is a middle ground bw discount stores on every block and sushi and art galleries.

krowonhill

Seriously, mr. met, did you even read my post? I reviewed data from the survey that NostrandPark posted about on her blog, and concluded that the neighborhood at large is not in need of her proposed art gallery, clothing shop, or restaurant. (http://nostrandpark.com/2010/12/23/nearly-30-income-increase-and-740-million-of-retail-opportunity-in-crown-heights/) According to the survey data, what people could use the most are stores that sell auto parts, furniture, and electronics (in that order).

Not the professional class' dream list, but there you have it. I also suspect like CTK that this class seriously underutilizes the dollar stores. :-)

mr. met

Yes, I read your post. When you walk down nostrand between ep and Atlantic, do your eyes tell you that more 99 cent stores are needed?

What is the professional class?

mr. met

50 millIion in unmet demand in food and drink services and 125 million for clothing. You dismissed those out of hand and went right for auto parts. And where did you get the 60 million number for auto parts? I see 215. Maybe I'm reading something wrong.

whynot_31

Ms. Krow-

Mr Met seems to agree with you. Like many on this thread, he is stating that Dollar stores are great, but that some variety would be nice.

I find that one must read these reports regularly to understand the implications. For example, many auto parts stores, furniture places and electronics places are "big boxes".

As a result, neighborhoods will always be either under served or over served by them. It is tough to distribute them by neighborhoods because they tend to locate in clusters on shopping strips that serve large geographic areas. A little store on Nostrand would be foolish to try and compete with the likes of Pep Boys (auto parts), IKEA (furniture) and PC Richards (electronics).

Urban Planning and Community Development are a professions, and serious skills are needed to effectively pull it off.

Regardless, legal businesses get to choose where they locate. Even if those in the community development field only get to armchair quarterback based on what we think would do well.

That said, I love Dollar Stores, they allow me to save enough money to go out to eat at nice, local restaurants.

Have you tried the place on Bedford I mentioned? When I was there, I had the sense it catered to local professionals. It has always been full when I went, and I imagine that the area could support another such establishment.

Small, somewhat upscale, boutiques selling women's clothing and accessories seem to be doing ok on Washington and Franklin. ...and seem to cater to the neighborhood's large number of middle class women who work in the government and health care sectors. I see "them" get on and off at Nostrand's subway, or catching the bus to Kings County Hospital.

Depending on their shows, small art spaces have shows that attract small crowds from all over the city. CH may be ripe for galleries because one can still get large, unfinished spaces for reasonably cheap. As folks are priced out of Williamsburg, CH may be able to attract a few to its vacant storefronts.

As Mr. Met points out, I guess it is how you define professional.

I define it as someone legally earning 40k, about the area's median income.

I'm glad you'd also like Nostrand to provide them with more services and goods than it does. The area has been under served for a long time, and is just now beginning to attract businesses that are able to compete for their residents business.

The other day when I went to Syd's again, a Steak and Cheese ran me $9. It was made by two guys (whom I assume were local), who were talking to each other about the grades they received on recent college papers.

krowonhill

mr. met, you are reading the survey results wrong.

Also, from now on, please refer to my above post(s). I don't advocate for more dollar stores.

mr. met

Krowonhill:

I was reading nostrand's blog post, not the actual survey. Maybe that was the problem.

Also, from now on, please refer to the topic of the thread. This one is about adding another dollar store to the collection of dollar stores on that strip. I haven't seen anyone badmouth dollar stores in general.

mr. met

Ouch. By that definition I'm not professional class.

Opening the survey, I'm still seeing the 215 number for autos, but whatever. I'm on my phone so maybe I'm just being silly. In any case, there are big gaps in a lot of areas.

whynot_31

dah, I was editing as you two were agreeing about dollar stores.

I missed the love

mr met wrote:

Ouch. By that definition I'm not professional class.

Hopefully this year will be different, and you'll get a promotion. Even if you don't, I hope Nostrand provides you with a wide variety of choices. It is improving all of the time.

krowonhill

There are some serious discrepancies in data between:

1. the document that NostrandPark posted inline as a .jpg (top right of page)

http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Crown-Heights-Market-Profile.jpg

&

2. the scanned document to which she links in the text (link="Crown Heights Market Profile")

http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/scan0325.pdf

&

3. the blog post itself.

That's why we were seeing different data. My apologies, mr. met. You were just reading from a different source than I was.

However, the numbers are supposed to reflect results from the same survey. NostrandPark? What are the real numbers?

whynot_31

Data inconsistencies aside, you do realize the field of urban and community development isn't a hard science, right?

That there is no perfect blend of businesses.

....no perfect blend of incomes, race and education.

As a result, a vibrant urban neighborhood is often never static; it is always changing in response to the changing demographics.

Likewise, it is important to realize that a study that states a specific neighborhood has "unmet demand" doesn't mean that you should necessarily open a business to meet it.

All studies have flaws in data collection and sampling. Despite the study's seeming exact numbers, like all studies, it should be looked at as merely an estimate, and should be looked at in context of the results of OTHER neighborhoods.

Knowing the field of Urban Development is key to understanding the data and its implications.

Lots of data is needed before opening a business is good idea:

cost of raw materials

taxes

wages

competition

rent

etc.

...even then, opening a business for whatever segment of the market you choose to serve is hard work and risk.

nostrandpark

In fact, looking at the data you present (Retail MarketPlace Profile, attached), the biggest "pent up demand" by far is for "Motor Vehicle & Parts Dealers" (with a retail gap of $60 million - is that possible?).

Agreed. I note the same in the OP when I say “from food services, to clothing, to auto-related - Crown Heights is grossly underserved.” These were mentioned, not necessarily because of my personal values - for instance, I don’t even have a car, and haven’t renewed my license – but because that is what the data says. The demand for "food service and drinking places" is around $125 million [NP1]. Not as much as automobile parts, but definitely nothing to sneeze at [NP2]. The demand for clothing stores is around $49 million.

And I don't disagree with your enjoyment of dollar stores. In fact, the data indicates these types of “other general merchandise stores” would do well in this neighborhood. With $55 million of unmet demand, every single solitary storefront on Nostrand could be a $.99 store and probably do well - but is that ideal for the neighborhood? No.

Again, the point that I am making is that because the neighborhood has been erroneously “typecast” other businesses that would also thrive here refuse to open.

What we strive for is a complimentary retail mix. I can go into more detail about the "science" of it all, and how cultural institutions like art galleries help foster a sense of neighborhood identity and attract other businesses but I won't bore you.

But, to be fair, NostrandPark, although you say that you are advocating for "low-income residents," I think the reality is that (in this post at least) you are speaking for people like you. Your post values certain types of retail establishments over others by mentioning them by name, i.e. restaurant, clothing store, art gallery. This is the wish list of a professional-class, recent arrival to the neighborhood. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there are certainly class implications.

I wouldn’t rush to that conclusion about my motivations. Again, peep the data above. Also, peep my MO: last year I was inspired to write a piece about Nostrand Avenue being an art inspiring mecca the hair industry. In my own life, I don't go to hair salons. Have no “value” for me. But I do recognize the value that it has for the broader community. Undoubtedly, I’m influenced by my own personal values, but the point that I made in this post, is the same point that I’ve made in different ways before (see Rastafarians Lead the Health Food Movement in Crown Heights, Organic selections coming to a bodega near you, and As neighborhood gentrifies, local bodega gets an upgrade) – the neighborhood has been typecast to the detriment of development.

[NP1] So we are all on the same page (literally and figuratively), I am referring to the full survey results for the 1 mile radius that was linked in the body of the NP article - not the picture of the results, which is for a smaller cross section and was only page 1 of 2. Sorry for the confusion.

[NP2] You can’t automatically assume that more dollars demanded means more people demanding - particularly, for instance, where the per unit cost of goods like auto parts is generally going to be substantially higher than the per unit cost of something like food. So there may be a higher per capita demand for food services than for automobile services.

nostrandpark

There are some serious discrepancies in data between:

1. the document that NostrandPark posted inline as a .jpg (top right of page)

http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Crown-Heights-Market-Profile.jpg

&

2. the scanned document to which she links in the text (link="Crown Heights Market Profile")

http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/scan0325.pdf

&

3. the blog post itself.

That's why we were seeing different data. My apologies, mr. met. You were just reading from a different source than I was.

However, the numbers are supposed to reflect results from the same survey. NostrandPark? What are the real numbers?

The photo was just meant as a photo to brighten up the post. We are using the link as the reference.

But for your reference, the difference between the photo and the link are the cross-section that is being looked at. You will notice at the top of the photo, the "ring" that is looked at is .5 mile. In the link, the "ring" is 1 mile. So there is no discrepancy in the data set - there are two distinct data sets.

We use the 1 mile analysis as a reference because it covers more of the neighborhood. Also, for technical reasons that might bore you, we think it more accurately captures the trade area. But you could definitely do an analysis based on the .5 mile if you wanted.

Another interesting piece of data is the "consumer profile" of the neighborhood. Within the 1 mile radius, about 60% are considered "city strivers" 26% "high rise renters" and 6% "trend setters". Which one are you? What do you think about it generally?

nostrandpark

There are some serious discrepancies in data between:

1. the document that NostrandPark posted inline as a .jpg (top right of page)

http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Crown-Heights-Market-Profile.jpg

&

2. the scanned document to which she links in the text (link="Crown Heights Market Profile")

http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/scan0325.pdf

&

3. the blog post itself.

That's why we were seeing different data. My apologies, mr. met. You were just reading from a different source than I was.

However, the numbers are supposed to reflect results from the same survey. NostrandPark? What are the real numbers?

The photo was just meant as a photo to brighten up the post. We are using the link as the reference.

But for your reference, the difference between the photo and the link are the cross-section that is being looked at. You will notice at the top of the photo, the "ring" that is looked at is .5 mile. In the link, the "ring" is 1 mile. So there is no discrepancy in the data set - there are two distinct data sets.

We use the 1 mile analysis as a reference because it covers more of the neighborhood. Also, for technical reasons that might bore you, we think it more accurately captures the trade area. But you could definitely do an analysis based on the .5 mile if you wanted.

Another interesting piece of data is the "consumer profile" of the neighborhood. Within the 1 mile radius, about 60% are considered "city strivers" 26% "high rise renters" and 6% "trend setters". Which one are you? What do you think about it generally?

mha

Oy.

Happy New Year everybody. :shaking:

whynot_31

Community development is hard work, but when done well, it can really make a difference.

Hunter has a good, affordable graduate program.

mr. met

Happy New Year everybody

what do you mean by "everybody"???

mha

I mean all the people here. I mean it's too early to start taking off the gloves. And I really mean that. I mean whitefolks, wannabe white folks, colored folks, I mean everybody. I mean all the people I like and loathe, the niggers, the spics, the coons, the wops and the crackers. I mean you, me and everybody else. I mean me, people like me, people like you, people unlike me, people unlike you. I mean everybody. I'm still in my 'peace on earth good will to all men (and women)' vibe. And I mean that. Every body. Even the dogs who constantly shit in the nearby tree pit, the whitegirls who hold their purses to their scrawny bodies as they walk by, the cops who look at me warily, the white dudes who square their shoulders, the gay dudes who check out my crotch, the sisters who don't heed anything I say; I got love for them anyway. I mean people like you itching for a fight Mr. Met; people like Whynot with whom I have detente; people like CTK for whom their is likely mutual respect and disappointment- probably. I mean every body.

booklaw

Happy new year, MHA.

I love it when you're mellow!

krowonhill

NostrandPark,

I've read your blog, and respect your initiative in seeking to revitalize a seriously socioeconomically-deprived neighborhood. I disagree with you though that the Nostrand Ave neighborhood is being unfairly "typecast". The current population IS NOT interested in the kinds of goods & services that you propose. Your retail survey shows this. The unmet demand on which you are focused comes from areas far from Nostrand Ave.

- The data set that reflects an area .5 mile distant from Nostrand Ave shows no demand for bars and restaurants but high demand for auto parts and furniture stores.

(http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Crown-Heights-Market-Profile.jpg)

- When the data from the .5 mile to 1 mile cross-section is added, suddenly a high demand for bars and restaurants appears.

(http://nostrandpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/scan0325.pdf)

- The .5 to 1 mile cross-section (that you admit you are interested in) includes areas that are already heavily gentrified: a large swath of Prospect Heights including its most desirable addresses such as the Richard Meier building, the Western area of Crown Heights, from Franklin to Washington, and also Bed Stuy South.

Of course, these heavily-gentrifying areas are producing demand for bars and restaurants, but they don't represent an area around Nostrand Ave. Even in this greatly expanded area you've identified, you still tell me that 60% of the demo is considered "city strivers" and 26% "high rise renters." According to your own consumer categories, then, 60% of your demo likes fast food and 26% doesn't eat out (drawing from the website to which you linked). That's even with the heavily-gentrified areas added in.

I have no issue with your proposed development. (I think that middle-class visitors and residents bring social, financial, and political capital that is sorely needed by this neighborhood.) But I am calling you on claiming to speak for low-income residents, when I think you are really just representing your own ideas about what's needed here. You said:

Let’s talk about the fact that low-income residents are only ever exposed to inferior foods, goods, and services based on someone else’s stereotypes about what they “deserve” or “want”. Let’s talk about how that informs their value system. Let’s talk about how perhaps introducing other options to the hood could have a positive effect on the residents.

You're talking about bars, restaurants, and clothing stores. What salutary effects could these possibly have? By god, yes, middle-class people moving into a neighborhood can improve the options for the area's lower-income folks! (And bring on the banks and the fresh produce, even if that takes social interference.) But restaurants and bars? That the lower-income residents don't need, don't want, and can't afford?

When I was poor, I drank Maxwell House coffee and sipped Carlo Rossi wine. Now, I drink cups of cappuccino and sip glasses of Argentinian Malbec. Do you find me and my values greatly improved? Well, my consumer choices are just the result of having more money to spend.

tsarina

Gee I don't know where you are coming up with the assumption that the people who live around Nostrand are not interested in food, bars and galleries. I know that my tenants, friends and neighbors eagerly look forward to new development on Nostrand ave. Perhaps we are not so noticeable on the avenue. We don't hang out, we go to work, but we live here too.

What do you propose would be most helpful to the "lower income folks"?

krowonhill

tsarina, Please, please, please read my post a bit more carefully. I'm not making assumptions. I'm drawing from data that Nostrand Park presents from the NYC Dept of Small Business Services.

I don't know why the demographic and market profile of the neighborhood doesn't appear to include you and the people you know. Perhaps you (and yours) are outliers. But the profile that looks at a .5 mile radius area from Nostrand/Eastern Pkwy doesn't even include a category for bars and restaurants, because there is so little demand for them. In contrast, a market segment that includes Western Crown Heights and much of Prospect Heights shows a huge demand in the category for bars and restaurants.

Given what the market and demographic profile says about demand, would *you* be willing to stake your life savings on opening a bar or restaurant on Nostrand (especially considering that bars and restaurants are notoriously hard types of businesses to succeed at)? Or, would you instead open a dollar store, an auto parts store, or a nurses' uniform store like Stacey?